How to cut hardwood to maximize value?

[Rob in NC]

I know this question can depend on your final market in your area but since I haven't had my mill long I have not had time to find all my sources of selling wood. I've got about 12 full grown white oaks on the ground from the recent storm and I want to cut them and sticker them but I wasn't sure what kind of market there was for them and how I could cut them so that it could be sold once dry.

Any suggestions?

[WDH]

If they are large enough to quartersaw, that will result in the highest value lumber. 

[longtime lurker]

Define value.

See, every log that rolls onto the deck can be cut three ways.
The way that'll give you the highest % recovery.
The way that will give you the highest $ recovery.
The way that will give you the fastest $ turnaround.
Some where in the middle of all those is the way well do it today.

See mostly the cut pattern that will give you the highest recovery won't give you the most potential dollars. Some sizes or grain orientations sell faster then others. Wide quartercut boards bring the best dollars but yeild is lower. Sometimes you can go up  a grade by cutting a board narrower.  Sometimes the log just wants to cut sizes you don't want. And sometimes you got an order for x and quick cash turnaround is king.

One day I'm going to cut a log and it'll meet all three of those criteria at once. Then I'm going to retire, because that's as good as it gets.

[Ianab]

You are right about best recovery, best value, and best production are quite different.

But if the logs are good quality, and sawing time isn't an issue, then WDH's suggestion of quarter sawing at least the best logs is a good one. Nice quarter sawn White Oak is popular and sells well. The extra value makes up for the time and lower recovery.

With the smaller size and lower quality logs (from the top of the tree), then you get a better return by grade sawing what you can from them.

[paul case]

In my area the nice white oak butt logs will bring more at the stave mill than you can saw out of them.

PC

[GAB]

You might want to consider trailer decking for some logs.
Gerald

[longtime lurker]

We do a fair bit of Q/S material. The high shrinkage/ high collapse eucs for flooring, and then there's the rainforest cabinet species where there is a significant premium for Quartercut material. I cut oak, just different oaks: the big lacewoods and tulip oaks, and satin silky oak, and fishtail - some of the worlds most sought after timbers go through this mill. Yah, I'm bragging. :D :D

But that $/BF premium doesn't always equate to the highest return per log when you factor in size and recovery. And as with Pauls comment Re the stave market, sometimes the best profit is in on selling the log to a different processor. In my case it's the sliced veneer mobs, some species I can make more profit selling to them then I ever could milling so all I mill is their rejects.


If m looking at half a dozen good logs of a common but mid value species ( similar to white oak in the USA) this is my thought process:

What orders do I have for this stuff? Orders filled = cash in hand meaning we live to saw another day.

What common sizes do we get regular demand for that this log will cut?  Demand = orders filled down the road = we live to saw another day in the future.

Will it cut something that draws a big premium, even if it takes a while to shift it? Premium = long term investment.

My optimum cut pattern is then determined based on those factors. I cut to order first, because that's immediate ROI. But I'm looking to get premium timbers if I can, wide Quartercut boards or difficult common sizes because I can always find another log to help fill an order but not every log will cut a premium board. Whole log can't go as that obviously so the balance I'm trying to put into what should shift. That requires knowing your markets.

equally as important is knowing what I don't want. I don't want stuff that doesn't shift unless when it does its at a premium.
I don't want stuff that shifts but brings no return except when it's all I can get.

Wide boards are easy. They sell. It's knowing what to do with the rest of it that takes market knowledge.

So here's some examples:
I cut a log last week, real good log but a framing or flooring timber. I had a single species order which gives a premium to me and that had to come off him. After that I was chasing 6x6 because under our grading rules I can't do box heart hardwood structural smaller then 7x7. Takes a lump of a log to cut heart and sap free 6x6's as we all know, so that's a premium size and worth cutting on spec. The balance went out as 6 x2 and 8x2 because at the lengths in question ( two billet log, one at 18', one at 16') those are sizes that will sell. Behind that came the tail...whatever else I could get based on market demand. I can shift 4x2, I can shift 3 x 1½ more then I can shift 3x2 in that grade. It's not a species I see a lot of so I didn't cut flooring sizes ( even though that'd give a higher BF return then framing including the 6x6 price) because after getting the order out there would not have been enough left over to fill a package. Had there been more of that log or species I'd have cut order then flooring, but I know I'd need at least 1200 linear meters (approx3600 feet) of flooring to have a hope of shifting it except in a lesser value mixed species lot. Not enough log. That's an example of order - premium - what will sell - approach

I cut another big log, ultra premium species, totally on spec. I took 8" and wider quarter cut x 2¼. The extra quarter was to allow for center splitting when dry if necessary. It's $10 a BF stuff, some flexibility doesn't hurt. I took 5-8 by 1" regardless of quarter or backsawn because at that width it has more market demand then any other thickness does. 4" and narrower went out at 1½ because it will shift as mouldings. What I didn't cut was 4" wide Quartercut boards in preference to 6" wide backsawn: after the premium stuff, I chose recovery and saleability over the BF premium that the Q/S would fetch. I might get less for them per BF,  but there's more of them in sizes that sell faster.

The rest of the week I spent cutting silk purses from sows ears, same as usual. I'm good at it, lots of practice.

It's a long winded post I know. But this topic: how to make the most from a log and how to get turnover from a log is important if you wish to run a sawmill business. You've got to know your markets - what sells in a given species and grade in what kind of package size. Then formulate a plan as to how to get the best mix you can from each log.

Then roll it on the deck, open it up, and throw the whole plan out the window because the log wants to cut something else. That's sawmilling. * headdesk*

[sandsawmill14]

it depends on your type of business much as anything if you are selling retail they have given some excellent advice
but if you are going to saw commercially/wholesale then rr ties is where you will make your living  at our mill we sell everything mixed grade/log run whatever you want to call it red oak lumber has been averaging 550-600per 1000 bdft and ties are around 700 per 1000bdft now the thing is even in the red oak butt logs you lose grade after you get in the log a little and the more you saw down the lower the grade lumber and this is true for any species i just chose r/o because i new the price off the top of my head  that doesnt mean that mean no log is worth sawing all the way down and timber is different everywhere but only about 8-10% of our butt logs will saw out more money in lumber than in ties and then only a couple of dollars ;) but that doesnt mean when i get a good 'un i cut a tie out of it i like FAS lumber good as the rest of these guys ;D i just dont get to see much of it :(

[JustinW_NZ]

so true!
I like to never promise anything until the log is hacked into.

I'm gona have to come visit one day and buy you a beer and drool at some of the nicer euc's you get in your area too!  ;D

Cheers
Justin

We do a fair bit of Q/S material. The high shrinkage/ high collapse eucs for flooring, and then there's the rainforest cabinet species where there is a significant premium for Quartercut material. I cut oak, just different oaks: the big lacewoods and tulip oaks, and satin silky oak, and fishtail - some of the worlds most sought after timbers go through this mill. Yah, I'm bragging. :D :D

But that $/BF premium doesn't always equate to the highest return per log when you factor in size and recovery. And as with Pauls comment Re the stave market, sometimes the best profit is in on selling the log to a different processor. In my case it's the sliced veneer mobs, some species I can make more profit selling to them then I ever could milling so all I mill is their rejects.


If m looking at half a dozen good logs of a common but mid value species ( similar to white oak in the USA) this is my thought process:

What orders do I have for this stuff? Orders filled = cash in hand meaning we live to saw another day.

What common sizes do we get regular demand for that this log will cut?  Demand = orders filled down the road = we live to saw another day in the future.

Will it cut something that draws a big premium, even if it takes a while to shift it? Premium = long term investment.

My optimum cut pattern is then determined based on those factors. I cut to order first, because that's immediate ROI. But I'm looking to get premium timbers if I can, wide Quartercut boards or difficult common sizes because I can always find another log to help fill an order but not every log will cut a premium board. Whole log can't go as that obviously so the balance I'm trying to put into what should shift. That requires knowing your markets.

equally as important is knowing what I don't want. I don't want stuff that doesn't shift unless when it does its at a premium.
I don't want stuff that shifts but brings no return except when it's all I can get.

Wide boards are easy. They sell. It's knowing what to do with the rest of it that takes market knowledge.

So here's some examples:
I cut a log last week, real good log but a framing or flooring timber. I had a single species order which gives a premium to me and that had to come off him. After that I was chasing 6x6 because under our grading rules I can't do box heart hardwood structural smaller then 7x7. Takes a lump of a log to cut heart and sap free 6x6's as we all know, so that's a premium size and worth cutting on spec. The balance went out as 6 x2 and 8x2 because at the lengths in question ( two billet log, one at 18', one at 16') those are sizes that will sell. Behind that came the tail...whatever else I could get based on market demand. I can shift 4x2, I can shift 3 x 1½ more then I can shift 3x2 in that grade. It's not a species I see a lot of so I didn't cut flooring sizes ( even though that'd give a higher BF return then framing including the 6x6 price) because after getting the order out there would not have been enough left over to fill a package. Had there been more of that log or species I'd have cut order then flooring, but I know I'd need at least 1200 linear meters (approx3600 feet) of flooring to have a hope of shifting it except in a lesser value mixed species lot. Not enough log. That's an example of order - premium - what will sell - approach

I cut another big log, ultra premium species, totally on spec. I took 8" and wider quarter cut x 2¼. The extra quarter was to allow for center splitting when dry if necessary. It's $10 a BF stuff, some flexibility doesn't hurt. I took 5-8 by 1" regardless of quarter or backsawn because at that width it has more market demand then any other thickness does. 4" and narrower went out at 1½ because it will shift as mouldings. What I didn't cut was 4" wide Quartercut boards in preference to 6" wide backsawn: after the premium stuff, I chose recovery and saleability over the BF premium that the Q/S would fetch. I might get less for them per BF,  but there's more of them in sizes that sell faster.

The rest of the week I spent cutting silk purses from sows ears, same as usual. I'm good at it, lots of practice.

It's a long winded post I know. But this topic: how to make the most from a log and how to get turnover from a log is important if you wish to run a sawmill business. You've got to know your markets - what sells in a given species and grade in what kind of package size. Then formulate a plan as to how to get the best mix you can from each log.

Then roll it on the deck, open it up, and throw the whole plan out the window because the log wants to cut something else. That's sawmilling. * headdesk*

[DannyLand]

I was at the hardwood lumber yard Friday buying material when I overheard two separate customers come in looking for quarter sawn white oak.   The salesman went through the story of how there is a total shortage of quarter sawn and especially Rift sawn, no one in new england has any, etc etc.  A handy shortage which is driving the price up for them to sell it at, but still no one has any.   Evidently its all headed to China to be turned into furniture to be sold back to us.   I heard from another customer that owns a Bourbon distillery that barrels are becoming hard to find too so as someone else said here, barrel makers may be the highest bidders for it seeing our future bourbon consumption depends on it.  Id think it would be wisest to call around to the people buying white oak in your area before just cutting it. The quality of the logs obviously is a big deciding factor in all youre choosing to do.   I had a crappy black oak with a lot of knots in it that shouldnt have been worth anything so I just cut it up into 2x8's for a shed, it ended up being a huge seller when customers came to the shop to look at wood options.  Built two tables and an interior sliding door with it.  Maybe make a sample cut in one to see the quality and then make your decision off of that.   If there are a lot of imperfections then flat saw it.   Nice and clear, quarter and rift.    Good luck

[4x4American]

4/4 white oak moves as quick as I can produce it on the wholesale level, but for retail markets, I have no idea.  I know that wholesale they don't give you a penny more if its Quarter sawn or flat sawn.

[longtime lurker]

so true!
I like to never promise anything until the log is hacked into.

I'm gona have to come visit one day and buy you a beer and drool at some of the nicer euc's you get in your area too!  ;D

Cheers
Justin

Thats why I carry so much rack stock. Ring me with an order for whatever - 6x3 @20' long, 20 pcs say - and we go to the rack and see what we got and then we just start cutting for the balance. Not everything can be an 6x3 that long... some come off at 6x3 but too short, some are only  5x3 or 4x2 or whatever other size the log wants to throw up. All that "over" goes into the racks, species depending it may get there via pressure treatment... but either way its got a shelf life measured in decades. Next guy calls  and we do the same, over and over again.
That and the "save the best logs till last" program means that for a little tiny mill we manage to hit above our weight in terms of the size orders we take and the lead time we need to fill them.
I just keep on sawing no matter what. I know the regular sort of lengths for various cross sections and if we're quiet I just keep sawing those... kinda like when Im sawing like that because each log gets cut to the best it can be given its limitations.
If I get overstocked in a given size I just put a pack of it together and send it to one of the wholesalers, but builders are my preferred customers - they get it a bit cheaper, I make a bit more. Kinda nice being the middle man not the sawmiller.
Got about 30 cube of framing hardwood in stock, more or less, seems to be about right... PITA and its cost money to put it there but as a system it works. Cheaper then the wages bill I'd get to increase daily output anyway.