Head Lift?

[newguy]

Anyone out there using a screw to lift the head on their mill?  I was planning to use a chain but my head keeps gettin' heavier.  I was just wondering if anyone was having good luck with a screw.

Thanks,

Craig

[Rod]

Something like this works good,thats what is on my mill

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=30905

[newguy]

Are you powering yours or do you crank it by hand?  I thought about that but I am using a 12VDC motor to run my head up and down.

[GF]

I used 4 1" Acme threaded rods powerd by a hydraulic motor.  The head on mine is also very heavy, I actually lift the head, motor, hydraulic tank (17gallon) fuel tank (15 gallon), and a 4 cylinder Wisconsin Industrial engine that has a cast iron block and heads.  

These threaded rods can be purchased at http://www.mscdirect.com I used the alloy steel rods with stainless steel nuts.

[newguy]

GF,
Yeah, I was thinking about 1" acme 4 tpi for mine.  I only need one though.  I am building a cantelevered head so one in the center should do it.  Do you have any problems with sawdust binding up the nuts?

Craig

[GF]

So far I have not had any bind problems, MSC has about the best prices they have all different sizes of rods, I bought 6' alloy steel rods for $48 each, I would recommend the alloy over the standard steel.  The standard steel ones are about $18 for a 6ft X 1"

One might look at somehting like a shop vac hose, I know sears uses to have them where they woul collapse down to nothing, could use it around the rod to protect the threads and it would collapse as it went up and down.  One of the hoses on the vac I have is 6' and when I vacuum it likes to pull down, it will collapse down to about 6".  Just a thought.

[D._Frederick]

Newguy,

I have threaded rods on my LINN LUMBER carriage and have had no problem with them, I oil them with chainsaw bar oil twice a day. If you have to turn them by hand, you will be winded by the time you get the saw to the top. I have a 1/2hp gearmotor, so all I do is operate a switch.

If you are going to operate the lift by hand, you should figure out a counter balance system to off set the weight.

[newguy]

Thanks for the input guys. 8)

I will be using a 12VDC motor to drive the screw.

GF,

I really like the shop vac hose idea, I didn't even think of it.  I was looking at very expensive bellows covers in Mcmaster-Carr.  I think the hose would work great.  May wear out a little quicker but for the price I guess they can be replaced several times.  I'll check out MSC, the company I work for gets a pretty good discount with tem.

Thanks again,

Craig

[Bibbyman]

Newguy,  

Why would you want to build a cantilever head sawmill?  The popular wisdom says a four-poster with a pair of tracks is much easier to build.

I've built, modified, and cobbled a lot of things because I had to.  But I wouldn't think of building a sawmill.  They are a readily available commodity in all kinds of design types, sizes, price ranges from many companies that will stand behind their product with training, parts, tech support, etc.

Inquiring minds want to know.  (Or I'm just being nosey.)  ???

[DanG]

Why not?  FDH and Swampy built a cantilever head bandmill that compares to anything I've seen on the market. I'm thinkin' they have about $5k in it, plus their labor. I can't imagine the satisfaction they must feel when sawing on that mill! 8) 8)  Sounds like reason enough for me.

[newguy]

Bibbyman,

Well it's kind of a long story.  I'll give you the short version.  I have wanted to build one for quite some time, I looked at all kinds of different mills, talked to people and did lots of reading on this forum.  The cantilever style seemed like the best one for me.  I worked as a machinist for 12 years and did a fair amount of welding.  I work now as a custom machine designer for a local company.  I thought it would be a great challange to build one.  The biggest reason though, I will hopefully have a machine that would cost 10's of thousands of dollars for around 5K.  (I'm tight!)  :D

[Bruce_A]

Why would a person lift and haul scrap metal and other sorts of junque for very little money?  The same reason you would build a sawmill you do not need.  For the FUN of it.  

[Buzz-sawyer]

About the acme rods and nuts....several people and companies I know of have been through the trial and error with them wearing out...two suggestions to consider, use brass nuts as wearing surface and run the rods up and down in an oil bath....

[Fla._Deadheader]

  From experience, if you let them Stainless nuts get dry, they will Gall, Gald, ?? and then ya got some REAL problems. We used steel nuts on our clamping screw. Ed welded 3 together, to give us LOTS of wear surface, and we just shoot drain oil on the screw once a day.

[Bibbyman]

Newguy,

Fair enough reason..  You're better equipped with experience and tools than most who take on such a project.  And experienced enough to figure in your design time, build time, debug time and materials at a market value rate,  it'd be a lot more than the "hard dollars" you have figured.

Seems like every project I take on requires about 4x the time than I figured and always hidden costs here and there and there is always the little reworks afterwards.  

When the nasty weather broke late last winter,  Mary and I took our two granddaughters on an "adventure".  We drove about and hour and a half to a restaurant out in the country ran by the Mennonites.   We had a lovely dinner and took another route home.   The girls kept asking "Where's the adventure? When are we going to get to the adventure?"  They were not really humored when we told them the drive WAS the adventure.

Enjoy your adventure and keep us updated on your progress.  (Got a digital camera?)  

After all,  your reason is likely the same reason Don Laskowski built his first Dupli-Carver and then the first Wood-Mizer.

History of Wood-Mizer

[newguy]

Bibbyman,

You are correct.  I have only figured actual material and componant costs.  My labor is free!  I had originally planned on having the project complete by the end of May.  That date is coming soon and I am still a long ways from being done.  I can't complain though, so far so good things seem to be coming together pretty well.  No major screw ups yet!  I have changed direction on the head design several times and now I think I have what I want (on paper).  The base frame, log loader, clamp, and dogs are done and ready for the head.  I recently picked up a Kubota V1200 diesel which was a larger  engine than I originally planned to use so it changed the head design a bit.

After 20 years of being in the machine building business.  I have learned (painfully) that once it is built it does not mean it is done.  I expect to spend most of the summer de-bugging and making hopefully slight mods.  I'll keep ya posted.  I will post some pics soon.  I am trying to document the progress with pics as I go.

To all,
This forum has been a great source of knowledge and inspiration.  I have learned a great deal from reading and following the links.  I still have a bunch to learn.  As far as the metal working end of things go, I am fairly confident with my work.  When it comes to sawing though, I have alot to learn.  I will probably be posting some really stupid questions once the blade hits the wood!  

Thanks to all,

Craig

[Mark M]

For lubricant on those screws you might consider a light gear oil such as 75W or 80W. It will have Extreme Pressure additives that are needed with metal-to-metal contact as you will have in your acme screw. I think the lighter oil will have less tendency to cake with sawdust than a heavier weight such as SAE 90. You could also use a "hypoid" gear grease as in used in some outboard motor lower units. These oil work well for sliding wear situations.

If you want to use grease consider using a 5% moly grease with a calcium sulfonate base. These are water resistant extreme pressure lubricants that work very well in adverse conditions. The product I am familiar with is Caterpillar Auto-lube grease. They also have similar greases for extreme high and low temperatures that are even better (but more expensive). I don't know if sawdust will be a problem or not with the grease, the one advantage to using oil is you can clean the threads with a little kerosene and flush everything away.

Good luck and have fun!

Mark

PS - I use the Cat Auto-lube grease on my Norwood Sawmill screws and wheel bearings and it works very well for me.

[newguy]

Mark,

Thanks for the tips.  I am not real familiar with Norwood saws.  Are the screws exposed so that saw dust gets on them or are they covered fairly well?  Mine will be fairly well shielded from the saw dust but I was concearned that it may bind the nut.  From what I have been getting for a response I guess I shouldn't worry about it too much.

Craig

[D._Frederick]

One problem with the home-build stuff is that you will have a hard time sell it when the time comes. People don't want to take the risk with poor design and sloppy workmanship. You will be hard pressed to sell it for the material costs.

[newguy]

First of all my intent is not to sell the mill, I will not have 10's of thousands of dollars into it so it will not be a financial burden as could be if I bought a new mill and had a loan on it.  Secondly I do have a bit of experience with building equipment so I am expecting the poor design and sloppy workmanship to be at a minimum. :D

[Swede]

I´ve been a machine-designer and -builder since -85 but building a saw mill, particular the saw head..........no. I CAN but it takes too much time before it´ll be ready for sawing good lumber.

I found "Amerika-Sågen", (manual) get it cheap and have enough work with making it hydraulik and not to heavy (less than 1200Kg).   Was up to a chain type turner first but now I don´t know.  : A chain means some more levels and a hydraulic motor. A chain rotating a round log and also a square block with out an extra cylinder for enough tilt seems not that easy. : I want everyting be well protected inside the frame so there isn´t much pace.

Looked at an old Forestor Jacko yesterday and get some ideas. Does anyone know how that  log turner  works? Presupposed I can make it better......... ;D

Swede.

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Larry Copas sent me some info a while back on log turners. This design was unique.

  It consisted of a shaft that ran parallel with the log. It had 2 concentric cam wheels welded on the shaft, so that, when you rotate the turner, it will lift and roll the log or cant. I have thought about that style, but, with our widely varying size of logs, I have to figure a way to "adjust" for the sizes of log.

  I think it was on a stationary mill with the log on the carriage, so you could advance the log toward the turner, and then kick it back to the head blocks.

  I will take a look and see if I have the link to the site.

[Buzz-sawyer]

Newguy ...way to hang in there under the barage of friendly fire....you seem to be able to keep your sense of humor!
  I have every confidence you can build WHATEVER you set your mind to ,I only hope you post a few pics of your neatly designed, valuable, well made, mill ....my friend
Don

[newguy]

Buzz-Sawyer,

I am used to the friendly fire thing.  In the business I am in, everytime I make a mistake the whole place knows about it and lets me know they know.  Thin skin isn't an option if you want to last very long.  

I hope I didn't come accross as arrogant.  I am sure I will run into my share of headaches before it is over.  I will say though, I have seen some mills on the market that are sold as a product line that aren't all that impressive.  I'll post some pics soon and take the heat from you guys.

Craig

[Rod]

This is just to give you and idea on how you might use a cable.

Here is how the cable works on my mill

[ladylake]

Newguy
I have a timberking B20 which uses screws and a electric motor to lift the head.  I oil them a couple time a day with 80-90 gear lube, works good.  They have a collapesable cover over the screws that really folds up good. I'd give Timberking a call and see how much you get them for, maybe the whole screw assembly too.  Steve

[newguy]

Steve,

How many hours have you got on the mill?  Any sign of wear in the nuts?  Do they run a belt or chain direct off the motor to the screw?  I am assuming there is no gear box.

  I am planning on using an alloy steel screw with a bronze nut.  I think it should work fine.  Machine tools are built that way and last a long time before the nut wears.

Craig

[ladylake]

Craig
It has 260 hours, the treads on the rods still look like new. I can't see the nuts. I read on a forum somewhere where B20 owners were wearing the rods if they didn't oil enough so I oil at least twice a day. It has a good sized electric motor (about the size of a 1-1/2 HP AC motor) going into a gearbox which drives a chain loop around both screws. I'm guessing the screws are turning 100 to 200 RPM, slower when really cold. I use lighter oil when it's cold.
Steve

[D._Frederick]

Swede,

I would stay with the chain type log turner, it is a proven design and is used  on high production mills with either band or circle saws and is used on most of the small portable size band mills. They do require a hydrualic cylinder and motor to operate.

New Guy,

The screw lifts are trouble free when they have a bronze nut and are oiled every time the mill is used. The screw lift is self locking so your sawhead is not going to fall if a chain or cable breaks. On my mill, I used a 1/2 hp ac gearmotor to drive the threaded rods, I wish I had used a permanet magnet dc gear motor so that the lift rate could be controlled better. If you use a fixed speed it is hard to stop for setting cut depth if the speed is too fast, if it is too slow you wait to long raising the cutting head to full heigth.

[newguy]

Steve,

Thanks for the info.  I think I am convinced that is the way I will go.  I was originally going to use a chain set-up like WM.  The problem is, my head gained about 150 lbs when I decided to go with the Kubota diesel.  I would have to have a gear reduction of about 100:1 to pick up the weight, gets kind of spendy getting a gear reducer that size.  The screw solves that problem and it sounds as though you guys are having good luck with screws.


D. Frederick,

I will be using a 3/4hp. 12VDC motor with variable speed control to raise the head as well as drive the carriage.  

Thanks for all the input.

Craig

[Swede]

D_Frederick;

Yes the chain type is more sophisticated, I can roll the log klockvise and counter clockvise. But i can´t get place for it inside the frame or need 2 cylinders for enough angle rolling a square.
On the other hand,  I´ve not found place for the Forestor type either......yet. It looks  good, a bow with spikes on  external face. One cylider and a spring. : Gravity of the log makes the bow turning.. Looks siple and fast but I´ve not seen it working.

Swede.

[rbarshaw]

Ya know--- some pics of these here log turners mentioned above shure would be nice  ;D ;D :P ;D ;D

[Fla._Deadheader]

rbarshaw, the chain turner, mentioned above, just picture a very small ditch witch digging bar. It has a slight dog-leg in it and the teeth are actually heavy loops that protrude about 2" or so above the bar. Wouldn't be that difficult to build. Just takes some room amongst the other stuff down inside the opening in the frame. COULD use a ¾ HP 12V motor that reverses.

[Swede]

I want to use a 50cc hydraulic motor IF I build a reversing chain turner. Perhaps easyer to handle with a reduction gearbox 4:1 or 5:1. Think it would get the right speed and more torque with my 5cc pump.  :P :

Fla._D; I´m still drawing on that Forestor turner type. Have no aluminium stripes but two  broken blades......... :D :D  ;)

Swede.

[GF]

On my chain turner I used a 80 pitch chain, then cut some teeth about 1" high from 1 inch thick stock and welded them to the links about every 10 15 links apart. I then use a hydraulic ram to raise and lower and a hydraulic motor with a flow control valve to control the speed.  On the head raising and lowering the hydraulic motor also has a hydraulic motor with a flow control valve.

[pinecone]

Newguy

Building a mill, is alot of work, takes planning, and lots of patience.  I just finished my mill with the help of a friend who has made 22 others.  Mine was no. 23, he thinks.  I put in about 275 hours, himself about 80.  Many people don't believe I built it.  I have no previous machining experience or much welding time in.  It looks factory made.  Precision on every measurement is paramount.  My mill is fully manual and fashioned after a Enercraft/Baker with quite a few modifications.  My head uses a chain/sprocket and cable system.  As far as what it is worth, I can get 2.5x what I built it for.  Would I sell it? No, I built it so I could build my timber frame buildings.  I have no previous experience at timber framing either,  but its something that I will enjoy doing just like the building the mill.  Getting good advice is extremely valuable and this site does offer that.  As far as log turning goes, I turn my logs by hand, it's just a part of the sawing.  
Good luck, and I hope you complete your mill.

[newguy]

Hey Pinecone,

Sounds like you built a nice machine.  Got any pics?   Way to go, you seem to have the same attitude as I do.  What I don't know I learn, I have found most things are not rocket science.  A little patients and mechanical aptitude goes along ways towards building what what you want.    

I have countless hours of design time and around 100 hours of actual building time in mine (so far).  I still have a ways to go but it is coming along.  Mine is a hydraulic machine.  I am powering it with a 27hp Kubota diesel, the hydraulics, carriage and head drives are 12VDC, running a 200 amp alternator off the Kubota.  

Good luck with your mill and thanks for the encouragement!

Craig

[GF]

Once you get to a point where you want to test cut a log, it will be all over with, you will not be able to stop cutting.  It sure is nice to set back when its completed knowing you built the entire system and know every part inside and out.

Good Luck

[newguy]

GF,

Thanks.

I hope to get to that point by the end of June or maybe July who knows.  I was hoping for the end of May but that didn't happen.

Do you cut full time with yours or just part time?

Craig

[GF]

I just cut part time with mine.