Kevin, Chet, I need your advice again

[OneWithWood]

I have another small situation that I need to do something about.  This aspen was blown down in a storm and is now hung in another tree.  I have taken the following pics to give you some idea fo the situation.  Please advise me as to how you would approach this thing.



I thought I took a pic looking down slope but I gues I didn't.  There is no room to position the crawler below the root ball as the ground falls off rapidly. 
I do have a large block to redirect the angle of pull.  I have a throw line, a 5000 pound static line, and a good climbing rope but I am no climber.

My first thought was to cut a locking cut into the stem near the root ball.  This cut would be comprised of three separate cuts, one down, one up directly under the first but not connecting and a plunge cut closer to the ball severing the fibers.  Then winching the stem to the side and releasing the fork from the tree it is hung in.  I am wondering if I can make the locking cut without pinching the bar duting the plunge.

What would you suggest?

Tanks.

[Kevin]

There will be a bunch of end bind on that and probably some top bind which means you will want to release it from the bottom.
At the stump,I would notch the top, cut on both sides of the notch and release it from the bottom.
Watch for any side stress but it shouldn't be that great.
You'll end up with a little square of wood in the center of the tree which will eventually release as you cut up from the bottom.
Watch the bar doesn't get pinched, you might have to ream the cut just a little.

[OneWithWood]

Once I do that the stem will drop straight down and I can winch it to one side or the other to get it to drop to the ground?

[chet]

As a safety precaution I would tie the butt off so it doesn't try to chase you down when released. A large chain hooked to the butt and tied off at a right angle to another tree or yer dozer might be a wise idea. 

[chet]

More often than not, with something like that, the stump will tip back when released and the tree will slide back over the top.

[OneWithWood]

Hi, Chet!  Good to hear that ole' yooper voice again 

I could attach the winch cable from the crawler to the stem before I commence to releasing it.  I most definately will have a clear escape path and my dancing shoes on 

[beenthere]

OWW
When you get the winch attached to the tree stem with crawler off to one side, maybe pulling would roll the root ball out and that alone would release the tree....

and maybe not, if the roots are still tight in the soil. 
I was thinking of a parbuckle rigging, with the cable looped over the stem/roots and back to the drawbar. 

Otherwise, what Chet and Kevin said sure sounds like a plan too. Play safe. 

[Quebecnewf]

Check out my post on" how not to fell a tree" to see "how not to do it"

Quebecnewf

[Jeff]

If OWW's tree takes flight like yours did, I'd never go back in the woods. :D

[chet]

Yup.........tie er down ;) At yer age yer dancin' might not be fast enough ta git clear.  :D  :D

[OneWithWood]

Ha-rumph!!

I am not any older than you . . . for another day anyway!

[Sprucegum]

Would any of you consider getting up to that fork and cutting one branch off so the tree can maybe fall to the ground on its own? I'm thinking you could stand in the crawler bucket, if it has a bucket.

[chet]

I've done many that had to be done a piece at a time in order to protect something below. But in this case it looks to be totally unnecessary.

[OneWithWood]

I'm more sane than Kevin or Chet.  I likes to keep my feet firmly on the ground :D

[Kevin]

will drop straight down

Depends on the amount of end bind.
It may just drop off or come straight back agaist the butt in which case you might have to work it a bit after the final cut is made.
If there's a lot of overhang past the tree it's lodged in you may find that there's bottom bind and not top bind so becareful not to get the bar stuck in the cut.
On your final cut stand back a bit, reach out and cut with the end of the bar.

[OneWithWood]

Would there be any benefit to angling the cuts so there is a ramp for the stem to travel up over the stump?

[Jeff]

Isnt that something you could do after the release cut?

[Kevin]

I'd cut it first to see what it wants to do.

[Kevin]

Looking at this picture you may be dealing with bottom bind, compression on the bottom and tension on top.


Have a good look at it when you're there.

[Gary_C]

The last big job I finished, there were a lot of large blowdown trees that I had to deal with. The ones I tried to cut using the chainsaw never went very well because of the stresses those trunks were under and it was very difficult to read which direction the force was from. I got my bar pinched many times even from shallow cuts.

What I found was the best approach was to cut from the top down towards the stump. The problem for you in this case is you do not have a harvester to reach up and cut that top off. So I would suggest you hook a chain around that base near the stump and use the crawler to pull the roots free and hopefully it will then fall down so you can cut from the top down.

If that does not work, then try very shallow cuts and have an extra saw ready to free the first one. Just don't get all of them stuck like I did once.   :

[Tom]

This fellow has lots of experience at working on trees in exactly that condition.

[beenthere]

Tom
You'll just have to tell us about it.
Says "We're sorry, this video is no longer available"

: :

[Reddog]

OWW,
I have taken a lot of storm trees out using the cut style in this vid. It is in Norwegin. But watch how he takes the tension out and releases them.

http://www.skogforsk.se/info/film/kd/storm/fald-avv500.asx

[beenthere]

Wally
Good video.
I've been doing more of the plunge cut for bucking lately, to avoid pinching the bar in the cut. Saves sticking a wedge in the cut at the top to keep the kerf open.

I can understand Chet easier than the guy on the video... ;D ;D

[Kevin]

One;
Watch out for this spring pole as it appears to be supporting the entire tree.
When I took another look at your pictures I spotted the space in the fork that I thought was lodged against the tree and it isn't.

[OneWithWood]

Sharp eyes there Kevin.  That spring pole will put some force on the stem that may push it back and twist it at the same time.  I will definately take a closer look at that.  Could put a new wrinkle into the whole thing. 

[Mooseherder]

OWW, One of them nice fellars should come over and cut that for you for your Birthday. ;D
Happy Birthday!

[Kevin]

That's why the back is arched.
It only has one leader caught on that spring pole but the tip weight is still too much for it causing the bottom bind so it will have to be notched from the bottom and tripped from the top.

You might consider getting a rope on that loose leader and take some weight off the tree by raising the tip.
Use a couple 10k lb. straps both sides of the cut.

Nice pictures by the way.

[Tom]

That youtube video is a classic that I watched again when I posted it.   Funny that it's not available anymore. 

It's about a fellow that breaks for a beer regulary and calls himself a "tree man".  This video is of him removing storm damage and he has climbed up a leaning pine that is caught in the top of a cabbage palm.  His narcolepsy has him falling asleep with a chainsaw running and him straddling the tree with no belt, safety rope, spurs or any manner of tree climbing equipment.  He proceeds to drop the top of the pine on a building next door, the log on a car, another tree on the house next door, etc.   A professional crew shows up in the end.  They apparently new him and were joking with him about "missed it that much".   It's a wonder the guy is alive.

Go to youtube and look for "james, the narcoleptic tree cutter"  Maybe you can find one that works.   I found one and post it here again only to have to disappear as the first one did.  It's like they make them go away as fast as I find them.  Maybe they don't know they have them. :D

[Jeff]

VIDEO FIXED 

[Furby]

???
It's gone totally and Reddog's video don't work either.

[Reddog]

 the link I posted worked fine for me just now.

[Tom]

The tree cutter video had a scene in the trailer that we determined to be unsuitable for the forum and removed the link.  Youtube probaby still has it, but we won't be putting it on here.

[LeeB]

It didn't offend me but I can see where some might find it a little over the edge. :D

[Reddog]

I've been doing more of the plunge cut for bucking lately, to avoid pinching the bar in the cut. Saves sticking a wedge in the cut at the top to keep the kerf open.

Alot of cutting bound up timber, is feeling the saw bar in the cut. No dogging in and cutting. You keep the bar moving back and forth to feel it start to bind. Then change your cut to release pressure.

And you carry a second saw to cut out your stuck one. ;) ;D

Plunge cutting is not the fix all. But it has it place.

[Kevin]

Along with notching the bottom and cutting wood off the far and near side, boring would also benefit this tree.
The important thing with all tension wood is to remove any tension wood last and leave as little holding wood possible.

[routestep]

That was an interesting video.

For that tree, I would try to trim the two branches first above the fork to releave some pressure. Then I would cut up from the bottom a slight angle leaning toward the top of the tree. The stump should lift up as the root ball falls back on its roots and the trunk should fall down into the ground.

[Kevin]

How would you trim the two branches?

[beenthere]

Thought a lot about this thread the last few days, when knocking down large, knarly willow trees that were growing out of huge stumps and long horizontal limbs with plenty of tension and stress. Most with diameters of 18-25", and no decent room to stand to make the undercuts and backcuts. Willow is tough.  The trees are down now, and bucked up for clean-up. A couple pics (and yes, the guy is sawing!!)

[Kevin]

and yes, the guy is sawing

:D   I don't think that would hold up in court.

I don't care for working in willows too much.

[chet]

Wooda never guessed dat.....  ;D   Looks like Kevin when he's writin' his name in da snow  :D  :D  :D   

[beenthere]

.................
:D   I don't think that would hold up in court.

.........

For the court record, that is my saw on the ground...not his.  ;D ;D

I've never had such a fight keeping the bar from getting caught as I did with knocking these willows down and brushing out the tops. Just a half-inch sliver of wood hangs on as the limb rolls, and grabs at the bar.

But I sure made good use of information from this forum, and plunge cutting, and wedging to get these buggers down. And a lot of good luck too. 

[Kevin]

I know what that's like, you can hardly get an undercut in a limb without it pinching the bar.
Very little strength in the wood.

[routestep]

He would need a bucket to reach those branches, it looks pretty high up. If he can't get one in to the tree then he would has to guess if the tree will fall up or down if the root ball is cut. From the picture I think the trunk will still fall down and the rootball try to settle back in its hole. The trunk's weight looks greater than the branches weight and moment. If he cuts from the top side, I think he should slant from the branches to the root ball.  Slant from roots to top if starting on the bottom side. Trunk falls down, root ball goes up or stays still.  Disclamer: I have gotten my saw pinched more than a few occassions and had to use equipment to free it. One time I finished a cut with a large hand cross cut just in case it got pinched, leaving my chainsaw available.

[Coon]

Personally I have never had much to do with this kind of situation but.....  I did see my grandfather, who logged and cut firewood every winter throughout his life, cut one one time.  I phoned him earlier this afternoon  and he reminded of what he did.  He even remembered the particular tree he cut when I was watching him. 

What he did was a plunge cut from each side on an angle pointed towards the stump. He plunged from the middle and worked his way down on both sides.  Next he cut half of the way through each side from the top down at the same angle as the plung cut.  From there he would cut a little more in one cut then the other and watch to see which direction the stump wanted to go.  Once the tree started to move a little he then quit cutting and hooked on a loooong tow rope just above the cuts.  From there he used the tractor on the far end of the rope.  He put a little tension on the rope and would give it a few good hard nudges.  If it didn't want to break free he then pulled from the other side.  He says if you do this from both sides and it still doesn't break free then give the rope a half a dozen wraps around the tree before you hook it to the tractor.

Seems way too dangerous for me to even try this but this is what he says to do.  My grandfather is 84 years old and never quit in the bush until 6 years ago and he still has all of his body parts. ???

[Gary_C]

The trees are down now, and bucked up for clean-up. A couple pics (and yes, the guy is sawing!!)

Glad you clarified that.  :D :D

Are you getting firewood for next year?  ;D ;D

That should be enough to carry you thru at least August.   ;D ;D

[rockenbman]

That looks like the mess I cut in all the time beenthere.I have to pull out most of my falling trees  :D