iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

WOOD GARAGE FLOOR

Started by RAYGYVER, October 15, 2018, 02:59:02 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

RAYGYVER

Quote from: realzed on October 17, 2018, 01:29:06 AM
Just my thoughts - from a completely different environment and perspective than yours I'm sure - but if it was me and I had he need to build something that would be 'for life' and didn't like the commercial cost of purchasing a concrete delivered and set floor, I would just rent or preferably buy a reasonably sized cement mixer and do it in sections myself, as time and effort permitted. - I HAVE A CEMENT MIXER!! LOL


Concrete floors need to be cut or scored in an attempt to avoid unwanted cracks that always will show up as the pour gets larger and to that end I would just do a square at a time using a wood form and pour it in whatever square footage batches in the cement quality you feel you need, in sections with plastic vapor barrier and/or mesh added to ensure the durability that you wish to attain.  
Adding expansion joint material like you see in sidewalks or just butting each successive section, you can make the final product as smooth or rough as you wish depending on your finishing talent or effort, with basically hand tools like a rake, shovel and hand trowel to end up with a floor that would or could be as professional looking as your ability or time allows.
It might seem pretty labour intensive but that can somewhat be lessened depending on the size of each poured piece and pretty much done and completed as your schedule allows.
I personally don't consider that trying to do all of the work to make boards and get them down and attached to some sort of good base structure, would or could come to anywhere less or even a comparable amount of effort, cost, or time to end up with a better end product - unless your aim is to try and impress with the uniqueness of the wood floor.. - I've got nothing to prove to anyone...just would like to have a wood floor in my man cave..

If you are not in a hurry, it might be the best way cost-wise and effort-wise to end up with a cheaper and better floor than wood could ever be or more economical than a  commercially bought concrete deal..its actually more expensive to buy bags of concrete than to have it delivered..I already did the math...and much harder on my back...

But ultimately just having a floor poured all in one day in a commercially delivered job - being able to walk on it the next - and having it all over and done with after 3 days or less does come with it's own set of conveniences and advantages certainly - cost be *danged! Thats the truth!!!

Again just my own thoughts an alternative..Thank you Sir!!  
I fear not death, I fear not to live.
Ray Cecil | GrabCAD
www.linkedin.com/in/ray-cecil-b862805b

RAYGYVER

Quote from: Gary_C on October 17, 2018, 01:38:04 AM
My first reaction was it isn't going to work but I've held my opinion till others have chimed in. After waiting, I still think it's a bad idea and here's why.

Any board laying on the ground is going to have a temperature gradient and a moisture gradient. Most of the time the lowest temperature and highest moisture level will be on the ground side and the highest temperature and lowest moisture level will be on the top side. It makes no difference if you use a vapor barrier or not. So that moisture and temperature gradient will be a problem that will cause warping, twisting, cupping and rot. The only question is how long will it take for the floor to be unusable.

Then there is going to be those days after a cold spell when the temperature rises and the rains (high humidity) come. On those days the floor can become a condenser with surface water everywhere.

But don't take my opinion as gospel. Try your idea on a small area and see how it works before you go all in.
Very good points. I wonder how one could engineer this to be a non issue? 
If the wood is colder than the moist air above it, it seems to make logical sense that it could condense, or at least absorb a large amount of water. The same principle would apply to concrete. If the concrete floor is cold and you get a moist spring day...it would do the same. How many times have any of you had issues with a damp concrete floor in a pole barn?
Anyway, the ultimate goal is to finish the interior walls as well. That is a whole other discussion. However, controlling the moisture buildup between the interior and exterior walls is the most important thing. That gap must be allowed to breath and evap any moisture that may condense on the cold steel. I know people finish out pole barns all the time, but I haven't done enough research on it to know exactly how to finish the interior walls properly. I bring this all up, because it done correctly, it may help control the environment inside the barn enough to lessen the effects of condensation forming on the floor, pointed out in the above comment from Gary. 
I fear not death, I fear not to live.
Ray Cecil | GrabCAD
www.linkedin.com/in/ray-cecil-b862805b

RAYGYVER

Quote from: PA_Walnut on October 17, 2018, 06:26:09 AM
I've done a wood floor in an old house basement on a dirt floor. Worked great.


  • Put layer of fine stone down to keep materials off direct contact and level sleeper grid.
  • Cover entire are with heavy-gauge plastic sheeting. (Make sure water can't get on top of it at edges).
  • Use PT sleepers on top of stone to attach flooring.
  • Use white oak flooring, which is weather/rot resistant. Locust would work too.
  • If you can afford to, place some blue foam board insulation between sleepers. It will take a BIG difference.

Lots and lots of labor, but may be worth it to you. Doubt it'll really be much of a savings, but looks and feels great.

After 10 years, mine looked great. Good luck.

p.s. On the concrete, check to see what thickness and mix of concrete they had spec'd. You may not need what they were suggesting.
Thanks for the specs! I was actually beginning to form this exact idea in my head. Trying to control for the temperature differential with the foam board should make a huge difference in the rate of moisture change. 
I like the PT sleeper idea, also previously mentioned. Although it adds cost. 
Its a big barn, and getting the floor perfectly level will be next to impossible, but it should look close. Adding PT sleepers would help a lot I think with getting it leveled up before adding the final boards. It would be easy to run a line from one end to the other, taught, and measure from line to top of sleepers. 
I fear not death, I fear not to live.
Ray Cecil | GrabCAD
www.linkedin.com/in/ray-cecil-b862805b

RAYGYVER

I had another thought....if I lay down moisture barrier on top of the PT sleepers, then I trap moisture there. That doesn't sound like a good idea. I would think the better thing to do is put the moisture barrier under the foam and sleepers. 

so, its clay under gravel under sand under plastic barrier under sleepers and foam board.....

I've got an idea guys!! What would be the WORST wood to use in a situation like this??

If I take the worst wood, do a test area with it, and can get it to NOT rot, then I would have a method to apply to better wood and go from there.

Please remember guys, this is FOR FUN. I am not at all worried if it rots. Honestly, I think it would be FUN to play with this over years and years to see what works well. I just can't bring myself to do concrete, its so plain jane, boring, unattractive, basic and typical...blah! I'm 32 years old, I have time to mess around with this. 
I fear not death, I fear not to live.
Ray Cecil | GrabCAD
www.linkedin.com/in/ray-cecil-b862805b

red

Another type of wood floor is called End Grain Wood Floor maybe you could experiment with that too.
Honor the Fallen Thank the Living

Hilltop366


We have had good success getting rid of floor level moisture in a apartment building with a concrete floor by adding a layer of moisture barrier and foam board insulation. ( it previously had vapour barrier and carpet) We then strapped it and put down the 3/4 plywood.

The floor has a bit of spring in it and I don't think it would be a good idea to have anywhere that would have heavy equipment or vehicles on it but it did go from uncomfortably damp to no complaints. Foam board insulation in between sleepers  would be better than none but not as good as continuous to me.

Another option would be to use floor joist like standard construction, it would be much easier to get level and can be made with more clearance and no contact between ground and wood.

A layer of vapour barrier.

Pour a footing(s) as per span of floor joist or shallow post and wood beams.

Layer of tar paper and PT on any wood in contact with concrete.

Build floor. (it can still be insulated if desired)

I would still prefer a concrete floor where the lift is but that could be coloured, epoxied or even tiled to improve looks.

DPatton

Quote from: RAYGYVER on October 17, 2018, 08:25:09 AM

Please remember guys, this is FOR FUN. I am not at all worried if it rots. Honestly, I think it would be FUN to play with this over years and years to see what works well. I just can't bring myself to do concrete, its so plain jane, boring, unattractive, basic and typical...blah! I'm 32 years old, I have time to mess around with this.
With your attitude on this idea I think you may be surprised how much you will like it and just how long it will last if done right. I think PA_Walnut gave you some good advice on design and wood species. Keeping that sub base free draining and dry with a vapor barrier will be a key factor. I hope you follow your idea and please document it here on the forestry forum for all of us to see. 
TimberKing 1600, 30' gooseneck trailer, Chevy HD2500, Echo Chainsaw, 60" Logrite.

Work isn't so bad when you enjoy what your doing.
D & S Sawmill Services

RAYGYVER

Quote from: red on October 17, 2018, 10:14:02 AM
Another type of wood floor is called End Grain Wood Floor maybe you could experiment with that too.
That is what is in the video I posted, and what I was talking about with the Caterpillar floor. 
I fear not death, I fear not to live.
Ray Cecil | GrabCAD
www.linkedin.com/in/ray-cecil-b862805b

RAYGYVER




Yeah, I think the right approach is to go into a project like this with a reasonable and healthy expectation that I may mess it up. 
I take delivery of my first mill tomorrow. Woodland HM126 with 14 hp upgrade. I have stainless steel sheets left over from a job that I am going to use to cover the bunks like on the HM130. I've also got a nice table saw, compound miter saw, planer and most all the typical hand tools. But I've got to get the garage floor going so I can build shelves and start organizing everything.
So once I get the mill going, I will be sawing some slabs to test out some theories! This should be a fun project to do, and hopefully fun for ya'll to laugh at when I screw it up royally..Haha
smiley_swinging_board  
I fear not death, I fear not to live.
Ray Cecil | GrabCAD
www.linkedin.com/in/ray-cecil-b862805b

Crusarius

you want a real good test make a couple 8'x8' pads with end grain exposed and edge grain exposed. Put them outside in the weather.

Be an accelerated life cycle test. use them as a normal floor. see how they react and last. If they last good outside they will last better inside. especially with proper water control. If I had more disposable logs I would make a couple platforms I could park cars on.

I would level the ground. put sand down then put 1 or 2" foam insulation board on the sand then set wood on top of that. make sure you tape all the seams. I bet that floor would last a very long time. plus it needs to be insulated either way. so worst case you just remove the wood and pour concrete over it later.

RAYGYVER

Quote from: Crusarius on October 17, 2018, 01:14:28 PM
you want a real good test make a couple 8'x8' pads with end grain exposed and edge grain exposed. Put them outside in the weather.

Be an accelerated life cycle test. use them as a normal floor. see how they react and last. If they last good outside they will last better inside. especially with proper water control. If I had more disposable logs I would make a couple platforms I could park cars on.

I would level the ground. put sand down then put 1 or 2" foam insulation board on the sand then set wood on top of that. make sure you tape all the seams. I bet that floor would last a very long time. plus it needs to be insulated either way. so worst case you just remove the wood and pour concrete over it later.
Won't the foam board compress and cause an uneven floor? Don't I need some support? Like the sleepers mentioned previously?
I fear not death, I fear not to live.
Ray Cecil | GrabCAD
www.linkedin.com/in/ray-cecil-b862805b

Crusarius

the sand is the support the foam is the vapor barrier. the tape seals the seams to complete the vapor barrier. You will never be able to get a high enough point load on the foam with a proper wood floor on top to do any damage to the foam.

That is how they do radiant concrete floors. but its usually compressed gravel leveled. then foam the your heating coils and mesh and rebar then pour over top. it does compress the foam into the low spots but the concrete levels the top. The foam will survive as long as it is not a giant hole. that is why I said use sand. much easier to level ad will not poke holes in face of foam.

RAYGYVER

Quote from: Crusarius on October 17, 2018, 01:49:13 PM
the sand is the support the foam is the vapor barrier. the tape seals the seams to complete the vapor barrier. You will never be able to get a high enough point load on the foam with a proper wood floor on top to do any damage to the foam.

That is how they do radiant concrete floors. but its usually compressed gravel leveled. then foam the your heating coils and mesh and rebar then pour over top. it does compress the foam into the low spots but the concrete levels the top. The foam will survive as long as it is not a giant hole. that is why I said use sand. much easier to level ad will not poke holes in face of foam.
Very good point. If I use large boards with a lot of surface area they will spread the load out over the foam. I like where this is going. 
This solves the vapor barrier and temperature issues.....and its way cheaper than using the sleepers!!
I fear not death, I fear not to live.
Ray Cecil | GrabCAD
www.linkedin.com/in/ray-cecil-b862805b

Crusarius

even if you use a 4x4 end grain once you put them all together into a floor the point load will be spread out over the full grid not just a point.

Don P

One thing about aggregate size, small aggregate can capillary moisture that is the reason for larger clean stone under a slab. Without sleepers what are the floorboards connected to to keep them down and in plane? I thought about 4x4 and 4x6 for the shop floor edge lagged together, similar to a nail lam bridge deck.

Runningalucas

I remember a guy using pallets under his floor on gravel for aeration, then applied the floor.  A lot of folks cried that it would allow rodents a place to hide/live, but if it's sealed up, and no access points, and more importantly not a bunch of food sources, I could see this working.  If too concerned with rodents, put a little poison down inside before covering. 
Life is short, tragedy is instant, it's what we do with our time in between that matters.  Always strive to do better, to be better.

Banjo picker

I guess this is a mute point, since you are not going with the concrete anyway, but mixing the concrete yourself, will not only be a LOT of work... it won't save you very much money either after you buy the portland cement, rock, and the sand.  If you can come up with the aggreate you might come out cost wise.  I have a small mixer and mixed up enough concrete to pour the top for a small table last week; it was a lot of work for a very small amount of surface area.  Anything over a half a yard of mix, and I will call the ready mix company.  I hope you keep your progress updated on this as it is an intresting concept.  Banjo
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

RAYGYVER

Quote from: Banjo picker on October 18, 2018, 06:35:11 AM
I guess this is a mute point, since you are not going with the concrete anyway, but mixing the concrete yourself, will not only be a LOT of work... it won't save you very much money either after you buy the portland cement, rock, and the sand.  If you can come up with the aggreate you might come out cost wise.  I have a small mixer and mixed up enough concrete to pour the top for a small table last week; it was a lot of work for a very small amount of surface area.  Anything over a half a yard of mix, and I will call the ready mix company.  I hope you keep your progress updated on this as it is an intresting concept.  Banjo
I completely agree. I got a concrete mixer through trading. I've used it one time. I said to myself "Screw this!" All those bags, dust, mess....I'd much rather be throwing wood chips off a mill, or planer.....dontcha know?
I fear not death, I fear not to live.
Ray Cecil | GrabCAD
www.linkedin.com/in/ray-cecil-b862805b

RAYGYVER

Okay, assuming this is all compacted. The only issue I see is the rebar rusting in the subsoil, and the rebar penetrating the moisture barrier (foam board). I could coat the rebar to slow the rusting, and maybe squirt a little silicone down into each hole before pounding in the rebar? I think the foam will probably act as a fairly decent seal up against the rebar. Thoughts fellas?




I fear not death, I fear not to live.
Ray Cecil | GrabCAD
www.linkedin.com/in/ray-cecil-b862805b

Crusarius

the 12" rebar is just stakes in the boards to keep them from moving. It will penetrate everything all the way into the subsoil. I don't like that idea.

I was thinking using 2x4 on edge. then you will have a 4" thick floor that can be screwed or nailed together through the sides. Let the floor float.

RAYGYVER

Quote from: Crusarius on October 18, 2018, 07:44:11 AM
the 12" rebar is just stakes in the boards to keep them from moving. It will penetrate everything all the way into the subsoil. I don't like that idea.

I was thinking using 2x4 on edge. then you will have a 4" thick floor that can be screwed or nailed together through the sides. Let the floor float.
If I do that, how will I replace an individual board? I would love the look of what you suggest, and it would solve the top face remaining in plane, but makes it much harder to rip it up if need be.
hmmmmm......


 
I fear not death, I fear not to live.
Ray Cecil | GrabCAD
www.linkedin.com/in/ray-cecil-b862805b

Upstatewoodchuc

Speaking from experience ( my garage floor is wood), it sucks, the biggest suck part is when you're moving an engine hanging from an engine Crane and it gets stuck between boards that have inevitably moved up or down, that and when you're trying to stab a transmission back in a vehicle and while you're trying to have finesse, the whole Jack and tranny get hung up on a board. That being said, this one is over 20 years old so they can last, and when you still fluids you don't even have to clean them up, give it a half hour and it'll all soak Into the boards lol...
Current collection: Husky 3120xp,  372xp, 365, husky 55, homelite xl12. Michigan 85 wheel loader, Ford 8n with loader and forks. Farmall super C, 1988 international dump truck, John Deere 440ICD dozer, 19ft equipment trailer, 40 ton TSC splitter, modified dieder splitter with 4 way.

Crusarius

sawzall and glue.

use sawzall to cut nails pull the board then glue new one back in. the glue will keep it sealed. I am thinking that you probably will not be changing boards 1 at a time. I would bet a section would fail. if you make 12" wide sections then you can replace a 12" wide section at a time.

you really want to get fancy put butterflies in them to hold the 12" plank sections together. I would avoid going through the vapor barrier and insulation once those are broken your life of the floor decreases severely.

You may also want to put tongue and groove on the 12" sections (sides and ends).

RAYGYVER

Quote from: Upstatewoodchuc on October 18, 2018, 07:52:07 AM
Speaking from experience ( my garage floor is wood), it sucks, the biggest suck part is when you're moving an engine hanging from an engine Crane and it gets stuck between boards that have inevitably moved up or down, that and when you're trying to stab a transmission back in a vehicle and while you're trying to have finesse, the whole Jack and tranny get hung up on a board. That being said, this one is over 20 years old so they can last, and when you still fluids you don't even have to clean them up, give it a half hour and it'll all soak Into the boards lol...
That is hilarious. Just let it soak....
I have a car lift and an engine crane, I bet removing engines and transmissions would be easier on wood, than gravel...wink wink...
Anyway, if I can figure a way of keeping the top faces all in plane, I'll have less of this issue. Also, I plan on slowing the pace of engine work as I get older. I have two more project to complete before I am done! I think the next one after those will be purchasing something someone else already did the hard part...
I fear not death, I fear not to live.
Ray Cecil | GrabCAD
www.linkedin.com/in/ray-cecil-b862805b

Crusarius

Upstate, what material is your floor? I still keep contemplating small sections of wood flooring open to the elements just to park cars on out of the mud.

Thank You Sponsors!