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inherited land

Started by Mandothis, January 26, 2015, 12:11:16 PM

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Mandothis

Hey guys and gals,

Just looking for some advice!  Nothing more nothing less.  Doesn't mean I will take the advice just looking for some :-)

Having said that, i have no interest in hiring a forestry guy to tell me the value of the trees and how i should manage a wood lot i inherited. 

I do my research and pretty capable of finding all the answers my self by asking questions.  It has done well for me all my life so please do not reply with "hire a forestry guy".  I see alot of that in most of the answers and I totally agree that people should do that if they don't know what they are doing.

The wood lot is 82 acres heavy treed (main types White paper birch, few species of pines, poplars and ash)
I have walked the property a few times now with GPS get an idea of the size of trees and spacing and general location of each type.  The land is fairly level with no obstacles other than trees them self. 

The forest i would say is a younger forest.  Most trees are in the 8-13 inch diameter range at breast height.  Then there are quite a few that reach 15-24 inch diameter.  Also quite a few that are 3-5 inch. 

In some spots its very hard to even fit your shoulders between the trees u end up having to back track to make forward progress.  So very thick, while some areas u can freely walk between trees with your arms out and only have to watch out for the little ones poking ur eyes out. 

The land has not been touched at all and is pure tree border to border so obviously first step will be putting in a culvert to get over the ditch and open up a small driveway.  I am in my 30s so i have alot of time left (God willing).

The idea is to create a homestead for my family and even my brothers and sisters family over time.   

Some ideas I had were to start a small firewood business or saw board mill (questionable due to the tree sizes and type).  I figure this forest is best suited for pulp or firewood which i think most of you would agree.   I am not interested in any kind of clear cutting unless its for building space or outbuilding space or garden and livestock pen.  Obviously, if we are to live here we want the place to look beautiful and not clearcut look.  So many trails and tackling all the deadfall and dying or diseased trees will be my first task, aside from building spaces.  Figure i could use alot of the logs that are straight to build the livestock fence and buildings if i get a cheap mill saw (would like a recomendation for one under 3 grand if anyone knows).

I checked around the area for firewood competition and i can see there is some competition.  However, i guess my question would be 80 acres of trees decent size i could probably undercut the competition by a fair margin for at least a year or two with all the wood I will gather in making trails, clearing deadfall, building spots, garden spots etc..  Do you think this would be a bad thing to do considering I want to live there? that the firewood suppliers would get *pithed off?  Or should i not undercut the competition and sell at normal prices and just hope for new customers?

I should also let u know I do not have any heavy machinery.   I have a good 3/4 ton truck with 14 foot dump trailer and chainsaws, axes, 4 wheeler, wheel barrow, and just my two weapons of mass destruction (biceps lol).
I do plan on getting a log splitter after i make a few sales.  I am a believer in hard work and patience so i want to use all money i get from the trees them self to pay for any future tools or machines.  So another advice I am looking for is the order in which one would or should get equipment that i have not listed above. 

I am really tempted in the direction of a skidsteer.  I just can't see a homestead surviving with out one, especially one that is 80 acres.  However, this is such a huge investment when you have to rely on the trees on the property to pay for it.  Full time homesteading doesn't leave much room for a full time job. 

I suppose once a person gets into heavy machinery 80 acres stops becoming a big peice of property?  one would have to be more aware of the resources running dry ?  Right now i just can't see my self cutting all these trees down my self in a life time there are so many.  But that all changes when u involve heavy machinery.  So I guess my big main question is for all you firewood sellers.  Is 80 acres enough land to sustain a 1 man operation selling firewood for the next 30-40 years?  At most the machinery would accumulate to a skidsteer and really nice log splitter.  (no wood processor). 

Btw, I do have experience in cutting trees down, worked tree service many years and hauled wood out of the bush by 4wheeler as a kid and had bombfires every day of my life pretty much while out at the cabin.  I got all the climbing gear as well so topping trees is also another option i have for forest management. 

As for firewood business i have done alot of reading on how start one up.  For me, i don't care what i burn as long as its seasoned.  I have never had an issue with running out of firewood so it wasn't a concern for BTU and making it last.  For customers obviously this is a big thing when they buy it.  I am just wondering if I should sell the firewood as a mix or seperate the wood?  The trees are mixed in the forest so it would be easier for me to just combine everything together instead of seperating.  Or would it be more worth it to seperate it and handle it more by splitting it smaller etc.  Thanks for all the advice and stories of what you guys chose to do..








Weekend_Sawyer

 Right off It sounds like you need a good thinning. You are going to need to work out a forestry management plan. I'm sure you have your reasons but I have had nothing but good experiences with foresters. You can learn a log from them.

On cutting firewood. Charge a fair price for a fair product and you should do fine. I cut and sold firewood for 5 years and never had a problem with competition. After the first year a lot of my sales were from repeat customers.

Jon

Imagine, Me a Tree Farmer.
Jon, Appalachian American Wannabe.

Ford_man

I have been farming all my life and have never owned a skid loader I use a tractor and front end loader . I think what you want to do a 30 HP 4wheel tractor with FIL would be more of a benefit to you than a skid loader.  This is my opinion,everyone has one.

square1

QuoteOr should i not undercut the competition and sell at normal prices and just hope for new customers?

There was a guy around here that was advertising for ~45 less per cord.  Within a week he raised his price, a week after that his ads disappeared.  I'm assuming he found out how much work was involved in supplying firewood  :D :D :D

Mandothis

Quote from: square1 on January 26, 2015, 12:53:00 PM
QuoteOr should i not undercut the competition and sell at normal prices and just hope for new customers?

There was a guy around here that was advertising for ~45 less per cord.  Within a week he raised his price, a week after that his ads disappeared.  I'm assuming he found out how much work was involved in supplying firewood  :D :D :D

Ya, but i will be doing the work regardless cause of the homestead goal.  Not to mention its the only job i consider relaxation and get enjoyment from.  I don't really consider it work.

Weekend_Sawyer

By the way, Welcome to the Forestry Forum. How about some more information. How old are you? Where are you located? little things help flesh out a picture of who we are talking to. Right now you are a blank slate to us. :)

Jon
Imagine, Me a Tree Farmer.
Jon, Appalachian American Wannabe.

square1

QuoteYa, but i will be doing the work regardless cause of the homestead goal.  Not to mention its the only job i consider relaxation and get enjoyment from.  I don't really consider it work.
The reasons I do it are exercise & time outdoors, but I respect the guys selling firewood to feed their families and pay their bills so I won't undercut them.

Corley5

Don't under sell yourself.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

beenthere

Mandothis
Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

Interested to hear more. Have no advice as you kind of imply you really are not looking for any. But in the long run, that may not be true.
(This is not meant to insult you in any way).

QuoteThe forest i would say is a younger forest. 
QuoteThe land has not been touched at all and is pure tree
An oxymoron ?? 
Not knowing where your land is located, very hard to sort out what the timber (or sapling) stand of old growth you are talking about. Maybe some pictures with information about them will help. We don't even know what country you are from.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

mikeb1079

QuoteThe land has not been touched at all and is pure tree

thinking he means recently due to smaller size?  sounds like someone did a pretty healthy cut on it maybe 30 years ago?
that's why you must play di drum...to blow the big guys mind!
homebuilt 16hp mill
99 wm superhydraulic w/42hp kubota

Mandothis

Well if i had to cut down the biggest tree on the lot i would say its at least 50 years old possibly more.  Majority of the trees would be between 15-30 years old.  As i said in the op i am mid 30s and looking to homestead and see if i can use whats on the land and buy some equipment, little cash on the side. 

I know 80 acres is not enough land to run a big firewood business with employees and wood processor.  But that is not my intent.  More interested in livestock animals and garden/greenhouse.  Firewood would be my main source of fuel and would have enough to feed 100+ neighbors no problem.  Concerns were undercutting the main suppliers, what type of machines would most benefit this endevour.  Location is in Manitoba Canada near lake winnipeg.  Stated the type of trees in the op.  Trees of every age and very thick in most places and decent room to walk through in others.  You would not be able to just drive a quad through the bush.  Trails/driveway needs to be made. 

Edit: Another idea i thought about was putting up an ad for anyone who wants to come and cut their own firewood.  Possibly something like $50 a cord but you come cut and load up ur self.  My only question about this method would be a possible injury; what if the guy is noob and cuts him self or hurts him self on your property are you held liable?  I would not let anyone do this unless they had all the necessary safety gear of course.  Has anyone else done this?  Perhaps just a waiver to sign?

was checking out this post  https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,80736.0.html  and basically this is the same kind of trees I have.  Typical

mad murdock

Welcome to the Forestry Forum Mandothis.  Sounds like you will have your little slice o heaven when you get a home place on it.  If you are dealing with 80 acres that have no roads or old logging roads/trails in it anywhere, I would be looking at a good used bulldozer, one of at least 40-50 hp and a 6 way blade, or a 4 in one bucket.  that will give you versatility to move earth for a homesite or 2, build roads, and driveways, skid logs, pile logs, etc, etc. with one machine.  It is too hard to move much dirt with a rubber tired machine, a skid steer is ok, if you are moving loose dirt, but if you are wanting to cut and move stumps, or clear and fill to grade for a home site, a bulldozer is hard to beat, and usually had for less money than a excavator, which is a real handy piece of equipment as well. I would not be looking to depend on making a lot of money by cutting firewood, unless you have a lot of it on your place that you do not need. If you build a place, you will most likely be looking to have a woodshed full of your own wood to heat a house, or whatever with.  Depending on where you live, you may need 10 cord a year or more just to fill that need.  Any idea of your average stand density, as in bd ft per acre?  We like pics, and BTW, if you are going to be homesteading, you may want to be milling some of the bigger stuff on your place for your home also.  Food for thought. 
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

WH_Conley

Letting someone cut their own wood, NO. Even if you are not liable they will cut the slick leave trees and leave the junk that needs to come down.

If not a dozer, farm tractor. Skid steer not near as handy on the homestead, ever plow a garden with a skid steer? On areas that you are not going to clear cut, ie, building site and garden, you are going to want to not scrape up your leave trees, that is your money crop on down the road.

If you don't want to hire a forester and you do not have a background in logging then you need to study very closely what trees in your area the money trees. Foresters can pay for themselves very quickly. It's your money.
Bill

Shotgun

Mando,

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.  You'll get lots of help, if you allow it.  Sounds as though you may not allow it.  Just wondering, do you do your own doctoring and lawyering?     ;)
Joined The Forestry Forum 5 days before 9/11.

Mandothis

Mad murdoc: are we able to do google image links here? I plan on taking pictures next time i go out there.
Ya i would go for a buldozer too but the money is not there.  I have basic 1 man operation currently and will be using the wood (which there is more than i could cut by my self in a life time like the old settlers did)  It is stated that it took them 15 years to pasturize 100 acres of tree bushlot.  I do like the idea of milling my own wood from the bigger trees.  Do you recommend a cheap reliable mill (portable)?

I wasn't going to do any stump removal as livestock does a pretty good job rooting up and allowing them to rot should be fine.  Also can burn some down if necessary.  I do like the idea tho and wonder if these machines are rentable. 

WH_Conley:  I would actually fell the trees, they would only be allowed to buck them up into what ever size they want and haul them to their transportation.  I am too picky of a person to just let them cut down what they wanted.
I am starting to lean more towards your guys advice regarding tractor vs a skidsteer.  More versatile for the homesteader. 

Shotgun:  I kind of do my own doctoring and lawyering yes.  I don't eat all the garbage from the grocery stores and basically try to let food be thy medicine.  As for lawyers, i do not desire being in a situation where u have to stand before a judge.  So no criminal desires and u should be fine.  Now legal issues pertaining to titles, civil, bylaws etc.  I suppose it would be wise to deal with lawyers. 

I just don't feel one should pay for advice when there is plenty of it free to go around.  One only needs to discern between whats useful and what is not.  I am pretty sure i can get all my answers asking here, watching youtube videos, reading books, google vs hiring a forestry.  Already read all that i can find on private forest management etc so i have a pretty good idea what they will tell me.  Besides, there are people here who probably even have better ideas than a forestry guy since they have experience in all areas not just forestry. 


mad murdock

Mando, use the forum search tool to read up on posting pics.  You have to upload them to your gallery, and from there, you can embed a pic from your gallery to your post.  I would not discount the value of a reputable forester.  They will be able to help you stay out of hot water when it comes to logging activity, such as working near any fishbearing streams, or water sources on or accessable to your land that surface water could drain into. Also in regards to local/provincial rules regarding best management practices, etc.  Unless you are well studied up on all the areas, and work in it frequently, you may end up needing one of them lawyer types to get you out of hot water, if a mistake were made on your part.  Ignorance will not get you off the hook, especially these days-just sayin'.  Also if you do have high value timber on your place, do you know it? Are you aware of available markets in your area/region? What a forester has to offer is worth many times more than the cost of admission, IMO.  I am not a forester, but I have been involved in logging and lumbering since I was a wee lad.  I still don't know as much as your average forester, but I do know enough to not need one everytime I want to do something on my treefarm. That said, I do know several foresters, and have picked their brain on more than one occasion to glean information as to what would be the best course of action regarding a particular item on my place.  If your place is as crowded as you say with trees, how you planning on clearing a building site?  As far as mills go, depending on your budget and time, a Chainsaw sawmill is a good option, IMO, at least it allows you to learn the basics, with not a lot of cash invested.  Another good thing to do is canvas your area, see if there are any portable sawmills around, and offer to lend a hand for a day or 2 after getting to know the operator, and you will see first hand what a machine will do for you.  You can also get a preview of what type of mill would be best for your budget and projected use before buying something and having buyers remorse soon afterward.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

beenthere

QuoteBesides, there are people here who probably even have better ideas than a forestry guy since they have experience in all areas not just forestry. 

And be aware that many of the best foresters are members here and likely reading what you have to say.

You do need help.  ;)  Don't let that be a shock to you.  ;D
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Magicman

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Mandothis.

Do not underestimate the value of a Forester.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Jhenderson

You fellas have shown great restraint not addressing the $50 a cord stumpage. I love guys like this.

Mandothis

Quote from: Jhenderson on January 26, 2015, 08:53:21 PM
You fellas have shown great restraint not addressing the $50 a cord stumpage. I love guys like this.

Please do,  I am all ears to learn what you have to say.  I figure there are plenty of guys out there looking for firewood they can cut them selves but don't have the land to do so and don't want to pay full price for delivery when they are capable of doing it them self. 

Not to mention i can get some free labor out of the deal and further progress the homestead faster than just my self.  I don't have any kind of heavy machinery so all this is starting out with just chainsaw and 4wheeler/wheelbarrow.


kderby

"Worst first, cut away the crap!"  You are likely over-stocked.  Get the junk trees out of the way of the good/valuable trees.  Check back in 20 years and let us know how it is going!  This will keep you busy.  :new_year:

Congratulations, it is a distinct gift to be given stewardship of a forest.

Enjoy the journey!

thenorthman

Well...

Fire wood is a racket, in my opinion, more work than its worth.  Granted I bought my skidder on firewood.   But I haven't sold much since.

Having said that, if your going to do it finding some kind of inexpensive processor is about the only way to go, mix that with a medium sized tractor for skidding logs and at least then you've taken the back ache out of firewooding.  Other wise your going to get about 20 full cords into it (80 face cords) and wish you where dead and start making excuses for something else to be doing with your every minute of spare time.

From the sounds of it a proper log thinning my do you more good then harm. Mark it yerself if you must but make some calls to local mills see what they are buying and go from there.  Other wise you have  a long road to hoe.  Probably take the better part of 5 years just cutting in some roads to get anykind of access without some kind of equipment (hence the tractor). Not to mention all the timber that will be quietly going to waste while you work on the road.

Hiring a logger to make a light thinning, they would pretty much put the roads in for you, and clear a spot for a house/whatever all while just doing their normal work. Just be careful on who you hire and keep an eye on em.

And if you still have an urge to cut firewood there will be plenty of slash and tops after the loggers leave to keep you in fire wood for at least a couple of years.

Lastly if people have the same mind set there as they do here... Taint no one going to pay to come cut fire wood on your property, they can get it free somewhere else. The money from firewood is in the labor, lots of labor... Most times the wood is cull wood or undesirable for logs, so it gets turned into firewood... as a way of turning lemons into lemon aid.

Best of luck to ya.
well that didn't work

curdog

Welcome to the forum.  I'll throw my two cents in, and you can take it for what it's worth.  I have a degree in forestry and have been working in the field full time for 8 years and make recommendations on around 100 tracts a year and I still will have a forester or another technician come take a look at a tract occasionally to give their thoughts on it. A lot can be learned by reading and doing research,  but on a long term crop like timber professional advice may help you in the long run...... I know you didn't want to hire one, but having someone in the field look over your place with you would be very valuable.  Good luck

redprospector

Wow! You guy's are really nice.
I just don't have the inclination to give any advice to someone who comes on here asking for advice, while in the same breath saying that he didn't need any advice.
Maybe I'm just tired and cranky after a long hard day, messing with firewood.

1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

Mandothis

Quote from: redprospector on January 26, 2015, 10:11:57 PM
Wow! You guy's are really nice.
I just don't have the inclination to give any advice to someone who comes on here asking for advice, while in the same breath saying that he didn't need any advice.
Maybe I'm just tired and cranky after a long hard day, messing with firewood.

Ya i think u just having a cranky day working too hard perhaps.  If u read again I am actually asking for advice i just mentioned I might not take your advice.  Slightly different than saying I will not take it or don't need it. 

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