Oak log with black ring on butt

[Warren]

Hey Guys !

Last week I dropped a good sized (for me) oak here on the farm to saw for an order. Tree scaled about 500bf.  When I dropped it, I noticed some dote and a black ring on the butt end.  Top end (at 17ft) was clear.

Yesterday it finally froze up enough I could get it out.  I needed 2x6x16's.  So I squared it up a little over 19" and decided to cut three 6 inch slabs. Plan was to cut slabs, flip up and start slicing 2x6's off the narrow edges.  Well,  I think the expereienced guys already know the outcome...  Basically the black ring went 8 to 12 ft up the log.  I got about 40% yield out of the 19 " cant due to the boards splitting along the black "fault" lines.  Pretty frustrated at the end of the afternoon to have as much scrap as good lumber.

Questions to the experienced sawyers:

1) Is this "shake" or something else ?  I always thought shake was more of soft mushy condition.  The wood on both sides of the black split seem to be very hard and sound.  But half of them split as soon as the board was dropped.    :(

2) Is there a way to identify this condition before felling the tree ?  If I had known the situation, I would have gone on to another tree and left this one stand.

3) Is there a preferred sawing strategy for this condition ?  In retrospect, I think I would had been better off to use the toe boards to saw full taper on the two best opposing faces.  Then saw the rest for blocking or firewood.  Or, would I had been better off just to pull it off the saw and block it up for firewood at the outset ?

Learning something new every day.  Sometimes how to do things...  Sometimes how NOT to do things...     :D :D :D

Warren

[woodmills1]

seems like it was shake, was the ring actually at a growth ring?  Was the tree on the edge of the forested patch?  I find these, especially if tall, will have more tendancy to shake.  I think it is due to more action from wind.  If not on the edge was it the tallest tree in its location or standing alone.

You can cut firewood off the butts you see with shake, but this often means you cant get the length you want.  I have tried to peel the outsides on shake trees but often still don't get much due to the shake following the butt swell.

As my farmer friend says   If this was easy everyone would be doing it.

[Warren]

woodmills,

The tree was standing alone in the middle of what used to be a small pasture.  Has been fallow last 15 years.  Previously, part of a small grove.  The split was on a growth ring boundary.  The appearance (to me) if I had bucked the log at 8 ft, with the right equipment, I probably could have knocked the center right out of the log.  Would have had a sound core, and a sound shell maybe 6 inches thick.  Obviously, both pieces would have been tapered.

Warren

[treebucker]

Warren, like woodmills1 said about the growth ring being the point where 'ring shake' causes separation.

You mentioned that it was an oak. We ran into a number of pin oaks (urine oak - ok the censor got me - let's call it pss-oak) that had the problem several years back. It ran the full length of the 16' butt logs. Some of it was turned into firewood, some sold to the Amish and some we had them cut into 2x stock for our own use. Big mistake. They didn't try to cut around the shake so too many boards fell apart. I noticed when I split the blocks into firewood that they would split around the separated ring and leave what looked like a section of a fence post in the middle. Word has it that ring shake is caused by bacteria while star shake is caused by wind?

I've seen star shake in many oaks around here. But ring shake I've only seen in pin oak. These were also growing in an old pasture field. Several were out in the open but the worse were down in the woods next to the drinking hole. They say ring shake is caused by damaged roots allowing bacteria to enter and this damage is all too often caused by cattle.

[Warren]

tb,

I'm still pretty lame on ID'ing my different flavors of red oak.  But this situation was consistent with your description of ring shake. The farm had been overstocked with cattle before we bought it.  Mild slope to the field, no top soil, cows churning the clay soil around the trees.  IF root damage was a potential entry point, this would be a likely cause.

What part of KY are you located in ?

Warren

[treebucker]

Near Fort Knox.

That bacteria migrates slowly up from the roots. I can't remember exactly but ~1" per year?

Did you notice the overwhelming odor of urine coming from the wood?  I smelled it in all those pin oaks - even those that didn't have shake. It takes about 3 months of air drying for it to go away. I've also noticed too much drying degrade from pin oak. Maybe better specimens would give me a better attitude toward pin oak?

[dad2nine]

Is that what you call a nasty butt?

[WDH]

That should qualify.

[Warren]

Treebucker,
I did not notice an odor on this log as much as I have on others.  Course it was windy that day, and everything was well frozen also. 

D2N,
It was not just a nasty butt.  The whole DanG log was pretty much useless.... 

But better to learn on one I cut myself, than one I paid the logger for.  At least now I will be aware of one more thing to look for when I buy a load of logs...

Warren

[WH_Conley]

Just part of an extensive and expensive education, Warren. ;D

I'm sure we all have some expensive lessons. :

[treebucker]

Warren - I saw some that had ring shake but lacked the black ring. I would be suspicious of any circular check on pin oak. I can imagine the smell being muted when frozen.

Is that what you call a nasty butt?

Dad2nine - that wernt no DanG bullseye!

[big_sid]

what causes a pss oak to have that smell is caused by a fungus that attacks certain red oaks, if the tree was in what was a pasture could be the reason for the black ring shake, something in cow manure I think. not sure what the fungus is.

[LT40HDD51]

I haven't had any red oaks up here with any kind of shake in them  But big hemlocks (maybe 20" plus...) are something to steer clear of around here. I've seen lots of nice big hemlock logs that had to be sawed weird to avoid the shake or just discarded.

Word has it that ring shake is caused by bacteria while star shake is caused by wind?

Common knowledge around these parts is that with the big hemlocks the ring shake is caused by high winds... Wonder if oaks the same...

[Jeff]

I used to see that on occasion up here. It certainly qualifies as some sort of shake as it is a separation of the growth rings. Those can be some big fun on a circle mill. Generally you find it in big logs when you find it. Normally Black oak more then Northern Red, but you can find it in both.  All kinds of interesting things can happen once you start getting to the point where the corners come loose. Usually some sort of wood powered jet propulsion occurs. ;D

[treebucker]

Common knowledge around these parts is that with the big hemlocks the ring shake is caused by high winds... Wonder if oaks the same...

I found debates on the types and causes of shake a few years back. Many stated the same as you. But the end concenses was that ring shake was caused by bacteria. (BTW - hemlock came up often in the discussion.) My own experience suggest that bacteria is the cause of ring shake in the pin oaks we cut. When splitting blocks into firewood, often times the center 'post' would slide (or shall I say 'slime') out of the block. It would be coated in what looked like cow manure. This surely suggest bacteria. Like Warren said - it was solid on both sides of the ring. We noticed that it was worse near the butt but it lessened the higher up the tree you went until it went away completely. Again, this suggest a problem that began in the roots.

The smell was smiley_smelly_skunk. It reeked. you could smell it from the road for weeks afterward. Of course it didn't help that we lined the road with the firewood. smiley_devilish Even the firewood that came from the limbs reeked even though there was no signs of shake in them. It made your eyes water when you walked into the room where the lumber was drying. The funny part was three of us delivered a few ricks of firewood to a lady. We told her it needed a couple more months of seasoning. She said she wasn't going to need it for a while and that was ok. It still had some smell to it. She picked up a stick, took a big whiff, then proclaimed how good it smelled. We almost puked trying to keep from laughing out loud.  lol  I think she said she was from Boston. I'd hate to smell what kind of firewood she was use to.  lol

All kinds of interesting things can happen once you start getting to the point where the corners come loose. Usually some sort of wood powered jet propulsion occurs. ;D

smiley_eek_dropjaw

[Ga_Boy]

A good rule of thumb for Pin Oak; it is a inferior species for lumber.  The growth rings are a good quarter inch apart and as others have noted the smell. 

When I get a Pin Oak it goes in the fire wood pile.  If it is a customers log I advise them not to have me saw it for lumber, and I point out the wide growth rings.  Pin Oak is not any good even as 2X material, it is just no good for anything but fire wood.

[TexasTimbers]

Pin Oak is ....... is just no good for anything but fire wood.

Now that's where your wrong. It is good for raising your blood pressure if you aren't all that good at I.D. yet, because until I get out of the skid steer and really look at one I think I have found a really nice Red Oak and my heart goes pumping. Then, the let down . . . . . .  :D

[Jim_Wahl]

This sounds to me like "lightning shake" especially with the black ring. Sometimes they have a bad scar
in the bark from top to bottom depending on how long ago it was struck.

[Larry]

I wonder how much is a regional difference...in the past there have been members post that pin oak makes good lumber.  I even remember a guy that posted a picture of a nice looking project he had made out of pin oak.

I must be in a region where pin oak is marginal...doesn't smell anything like urine but has an over whelming smell of rotten eggs when bacterially infected.  Sometimes you can't see the shake in the rings green, but when it hits 30% MC in the kiln the board just falls apart.  And yes 1/2" growth rings...most folks don't realize it but pin oak is quite fast growing.  Guess that is why so many are planted for landscaping.

I see shake in other species...coffeetree is as bad as pin oak, than black oak, cottonwood, and sometimes sycamore.  None of these trees have much smell associated with the shake though.

[treebucker]

Larry,
You could have something there:

Quercus ellipsoidalis (Northern Pin Oak)

Quercus palustris (Pin Oak)

The latter is what grows here in Kentucky. Not much good for lumber but it I think it's the best red oak firewood I have seen.

I've read several sources that frowned on pin oak for lumber. But I could only find one of them in a pinch:

Pin Oak

They taught me in grade school science that the reason a tree splits when hit by lightning is that it's resistance to the flow of electricity causes heat to build in the tree. This is instantaneous. The water in the wood vaporizes causing intense pressure. Pressure follows the path of least resistence. All of the lightning damage I've seen busted the trunk from the inside out. Most split the trunk side-to-side right through the pith. Some split it from pith to bark on one side only. I saw a huge cotton wood (~150' tall/~7-8' DBH) get hit a few years ago. It split a wedge out of the trunk about 1' wide and up to 6" deep about 80' up the trunk. The patterns I describe agree with pressure following the path of least resistence.

I've never seen a lightning strike split around a growth ring. But, when it comes to lightning, anything seems possible.

[footer]

Pin Oak is ....... is just no good for anything but fire wood.

Now that's where your wrong. It is good for raising your blood pressure if you aren't all that good at I.D. yet, because until I get out of the skid steer and really look at one I think I have found a really nice Red Oak and my heart goes pumping. Then, the let down . . . . . .  :D

How can you tell the difference?  I have sawn up some nice red oak from around here, and was told by the land owner of each that they were pin oak, but they look like any other red oak to me.  One in particular had real wide growth rings, and stunk real bad when cutting, but havent seen any sign of shake in any of them yet.

[TexasTimbers]

It's real hard for me to tell the difference unless I have leaves. And even then I may be wrong half the time and not know it. But what I go on is that red oak leaves are not as skinny as the pin oak. the pin oak leaves are real skinny across compared to the red oak which are only slightly wider across the sinuses (?).
Hey Donk give this man a real answer! ;)

[Larry]

Look at open grown trees and you will see the limb structure of pin oak is completely different from red oak.  The lower limbs of pin oak come out at right angles.  The limb will have a main branch with a lot of little branch's off it.  The pin oak doesn't self prune nearly as well as red oak, so the limbs are closer to the ground.  Most pin oak yard trees are heavily pruned to remove the lower branches.  Red oak often has white rings on the immature bark, few limbs, and they come off the trunk at acute angles.  Of course forest grown trees will be a little different, plus sometimes individual trees don't follow all the rules, but you can still tell the difference by the shape.

Now that I think about it I'm not for sure if I could tell the difference between a pin oak and red oak just by the leaves...they both have points which indicate the red oak family but the differences are subtle.

[RMay]

Kevjay  your pin oak my be water or Willow oak . Pin oak is rare in south west Arkansas . ;D

[WDH]

Yeah Kevjay like you said,

Pin oak leaves have the deepest sinuses of the red oaks.  The depth of the sinus will almost go to the midrib.  The other two red oaks with really deep sinuses are shumard oak and scarlet oak.  Shumard is one of the finest timber red oaks and is a bottomland species.  Unfortunately, it is not all that common.  Scarlet oak is more of an upland poorer site red oak and can be kinda scraggley and limby, just like pin oak.  The key to pin oak is the exceptionally deep sinus and the very "feathery spiny" lobes.  Not much pin oak in the South except for the ornamental plantings.  It has been widely planted as a city or street, probably because it grows so fast. 

One thing I remember is the old duck hunters in Arkansas that used to talk of the "pin oak flats" where all the ducks came to eat the acorns.  Those "pin oaks" as they were referred to were not true pin oaks but were rather water, willow, and laurel oaks.  A true pin oak has a leaf as big as your hand, heavily lobed, with deeply cut sinuses.  The duck hunter "pin oaks" (really water oak, willow oak and laurel oak) have narrow unlobed leaves, or in the case of water oak, three-lobed at the tip.  They are easily less that half the size of your hand. 

One day, we need to do a post on identifying oaks if there is enough interest.

[LT40HDD51]

Man, all we have to deal with around here is red oak, pretty much  . I'm always amazed at the species of hardwoods down there, never heard of pin, water, willow or laurel oak. A year or so ago I drove from Indianapolis to somewhere in Kentucky, and was amazed at the hardwoods in the ditches and between the fields . Not used to seeing the all-hardwood stands, most of our forest is quite mixed. Around here the only hardwoods we have are hard and soft maple, yellow and white birch, oak (red), ash and poplar, for the most part...

[Warren]

WDH,

I would appreciate some additional help / training / tutoring on ID'ing the various type of trees in general and oaks, specifically.  I bought the Audubon tree book for the Eastern U.S.  I cut one tree in December that looked kinda like a laurel oak in the pictures.  But the book indicated north central KY was outside the native range.  Next closest pic was a Shingle oak.  Had the unlobed leaves that you mentioned in your previous post.

According to the Audubon book there are maybe 24 flavors fo oak native to the Eastern U.S.  Other than picking "white oak family" versus "red oak family" I would have a hard time differentiating 24 different species / varieties....

Warren

[WDH]

Sure Warren,

Let me think about how the best way to do that.......  We could set up an "Identifying the Oaks" post and go thru it in some detail if there is enough interest.  Otherwise, I could work with you off the Forum.

What do the rest of ya'll say, any interest in an "OAK ID" post?  (if it has not already been done :-\).

[beenthere]

To me, it sounds like a good idea for the forum to have such a thread. Consider the good technique and pics Swampdonkey has already posted of his work.

Certainly will have some good critique from da members on what you post, and that will serve to make it better. Hope you decide to do it.

[WDH]

Yes, I need to collaborate with SwampD on the best way to do it, and also, so others can get involved.  It should be fun.

[BBTom]

I would be interested in the identification thread, too!

I think the black ring may indicate when a fire (or flood, etc) damaged the tree.

[Ron Wenrich]

Here's a tree key that the National Arbor Day Foundation has developed.  You can work your way through it to come up with a species.

http://www.arborday.org/trees/treeID.cfm

Here's a tree key from Iowa State that seems useful.

http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Pages/tree/key.html

[Warren]

Ron,
Thanks for the links.  I ran thru both of them for the tree I cut in December.  Both led to Shingle Oak which is consistent with the Audubon guide.  Interestly, the Iowa link got to the answer much faster.  But the Arbor Day link appeared much more thorough.  Hmmm...

WDH,
I am willing to be a guinea pig either on Forum, or off.  Guess I am going to have to start paying attention to the details when I am in the woods.

I appreciate everyone's input so far on this thread....

Warren

[treebucker]

I didn't see laurel oak on those sites. A few days ago I was looking into shingle oak and several sites listed laurel oak as another common name for shingle oak, while other sites listed laurel oak as a distinct species.

I like the idea of having a good oak id page. I like side-by-side comparisons that show the most obvious clues to look for in sorting out the look-a-likes. I'm often confused by what seems to be the same picture/drawing being used to id different species within the group. This problem is compounded by seeing counterdictions from site to site i.e, Shumard on one site looking like black on another, black looking like bur, etc.). There simply doesn't seem to be enough accuracy and distinction.

Here's a sample of a decent side-by-side comparison:
http://www.mntca.org/Reference_manual/Tree_info/tca_oak_comparisons.htm
But this site does not cover all the species that grow here in Kentucky.

I'm also having similar problems sorting out hickories and maples.

[Ron Wenrich]

One thing to remember is that the same tree differs throughout its range.  That includes the quality of the lumber as well as the way it even looks.  Then there is also the problem of what a tree is named in one area is different in another.  Poplar is a very good example.  Sometimes things just look different on better sites as compared to a poor site.

We've had some good examples of pin oak as lumber and some really bad examples of pin oak.  The same can be said for black oak.