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12" jointer restoration

Started by bluthum, January 22, 2017, 02:46:15 PM

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bluthum

I've done a slow mo' restoration of an American [brand name] 12" jointer. Basically it is up and running with new electrics, bearings, pulleys etc. One thing lacking is the blade guard. All of the guard is there and works except the top plate [help me with the correct term] that  pushes away from the cutters by your work piece. I can easily build this with a piece of aluminum plate but the shape is critical to function. I copied the shape from an 8" jointer but it won't work. I've about decided the design shape needed is voodoo but if I saw a good photo or drawing with a couple dimensions on it  it should be doable. Any suggestions for a pattern source?

It may not matter but the guard is a Peter Guard { I kid you not} brand which are commonly seen on jointers of the 20's and 30's. They use a weight rather than a spring to keep the guard in place. The guard design is simple and effective and all of it is there but the guard shield plate itself. It's a fair scary looking thing running with no guard.

Larry

Is this it?

http://www.datamp.org/patents/displayPatent.php?id=5008

If so, you can probably go to the patent and get exact measurements.

Got any pictures of your jointer?  We like old restored machines. :)
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

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Ljohnsaw

Pictures would be great of what you have.  Someone had posted a video of a European design guard.  I can only remember they were way different than what you see over here and it looked like it worked better, too.  You might google it or search here somehow.  I wouldn't know what terms to use to hopefully find it.
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bluthum

Wow, Larry that is it, your research skills are my envy.  I always surmised American Tool joined with Yates to make Yates- American. Every Yates- American jointer I ever saw has this exact guard as well. But back to the thread..

I will try to figure out how to get to the patent drawings themselves but I think I could get pretty close from that cover drawing itself. The shape of the guard is critical because it has to cover the knives but be easy to push forward regardless of where the fence is located.

Thanks very much for the info!

As for pics right now the project area is junked out but probably someday. It is the classic 3 leg design that was largely still made by Northfield  even as late as ten years ago[?] or so. Maybe the quantity of cast iron involved  helped doom the design ?  That would apply to the guard and the three leg jointer design equally.

Andries

Bluthum, does your jointer look like this?

Yates 199. You can see the original factory blade guard mount lurking under the left hand side.
Ended up with a blade guard for mine, plywood and homemade.
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Kcwoodbutcher

Andries, I have a Berlin 199 ( which during WW I was renamed Yates American for obvious reasons ) that is very similar to yours. It has four feet instead of three but otherwise that castings look the same. Does your outfeed table adjust or does the cutter head move up and down?
My job is to do everything nobody else felt like doing today

Andries

The cutter head is adjusted using the small wheel to the right of the main wheel, which adjusts the height of the infeed table.
The out feed table doesn't move.
Ill see if I can find some photos of blade guards.
aka 'the pork chop'.  ;D
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bluthum

Andries my American 12" jointer looks nothing like that. I have an 8" Yates - American [1929] which looks nearly identical  to the 12" except it is smaller and better finished. Oh, also it is a pattern makers model with 4 knife head and taller, longer fence but both have adj. in and outfeed tables. Both were direct drive but I fitted them with pulleys and direct drive.  Bed lengths are about 8' and 7'.

Does your machine have a round cutter head? I wonder when Yates and American consolidated?

Anyway back to the guard. I opened up the patent # supplied by Larry and found no dimensions for the patent at all. So I took the fine drawings and blew them up 4x and traced the guard shape off on grid paper right from my monitor. After estimating the scale by several ways I drew a grid to an estimated full scale on a piece of 1/4" ply. Taking measurements from the patent tracing I plotted certain  curve intersections on the full scale and laid down the curve with a french curve template.

I went ahead and cut out the ply wood template but haven't gotten to testing it but it sure looks like it will work. If so I'll saw out a new guard with aluminum plate and thicken the edge with probably 1/2" baltic plywood. I bought some new brass safety chain today for the guard retracting weight.

I hope to get up some pics since there seems to be interest. I certainly appreciate the help here folks! Thank you. 

bluthum

I forgot to add both the 8 & 12 have the spring joint attachment which is a cam on a lever that cocks the out feed table to make a spring joint. I've never found any use for that feature! Does any one ever want to make a spring joint ? I don't get the theory.

Larry

My best subject in school was shop class.  In 1962 or there bouts, we were taught how to make spring joints on a standard jointer.  I can't quite remember how it was done but I do remember making them for a desk top.  The idea was to get a slight gap in the center of the board before glue up.  The thinking was the joint would never open especially at the ends. 

I'm sitting at that desk I made to-nite typing this out.  Musta done a good job because the joints are still tight.

I haven't made a spring joint since school because I don't think it adds anything with today's modern glues.  When I learned spring joints a lot of people were still using hide glue or Elmers white glue.

I was wondering about Andries jointer.  That lever near the large wheel looks like it might shift for a spring joint.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Andries

Larry - you're talking about this lever?


Here's an image of it during the cleanup/restoring work.


It was always unclear to me how this control worked, and for what reason.
Can you describe what you mean by a "shift for spring joint?
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Andries

This is a photo from the other side,


The 'spring shift' lever works on both babbit bearings. . . but what it does in there is  ? ?

Quote from: bluthum on January 26, 2017, 05:13:07 PM
Does your machine have a round cutter head? .  .    .
I guess the pic answers a bunch of questions - yup, two blades in a round head.
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Larry

Yep, that's the lever I was curious about.

I think the most common way to cut a spring joint is to manipulate the outfeed table.  The end is either dropped or the end at the cutterhead is raised.  The idea is to droop the jointer table from end to end.  I suppose lowering the cutterhead would also work but I have never seen it done that way.

I think when I was taught to make a spring joint on a regular jointer there were three steps.  Joint the board flat first.  Second pass drop the board about ΒΌ way through than lift it back up about 3/4's of the way through.  This would leave a ridge.  Final step was to run the board through normal to fair the ridge left in step two.  Of course all the steps required some hand coordination to get the pressure on the board just perfect especially on the final step.  Another reason I never did many spring joints.  In a four foot long board the spring would only be a small amount right in the center of the board.  Maybe 1/32" or so.

The above is all from ancient history and my memory isn't all that sharp.  I'll defer to anybody that has some experience.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Kcwoodbutcher

That lever is simply a locking device for the head up/down movement. I have one on mine And it took me a while to figure it out.
My job is to do everything nobody else felt like doing today

Andries

Quote from: Kcwoodbutcher on January 27, 2017, 01:12:40 PM
That lever is simply a locking device for the head up/down movement. I have one on mine And it took me a while to figure it out.
Good to meet another owner! - looked in your gallery but didn't see the Berlin 199.
Care to post a few pictures?
. . . and now I'm full of questions.
Do you use carbide or HSS blades in yours?
If you have rabbit bearings, what type of oil are you using in the oil cups?
How does the locking lever work on the cutter head vertical travel?
etc. etc.
Thanks in advance.   smiley_thumbsup
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Kcwoodbutcher

I thought I had pictures there but that was the Dewalt GE saw. The head has been updated to a four knife head with HSS blades and ball bearings. The bearings sit right in the original babbit bearings. I would never use tungsten knives. The wood I cut has too many foreign objects in it which would destroy those blades. I think the lever is attached to a simple cam that jams against the cutter head box. If it's not locked you will notice that slowly over time the cutter head will lower resulting in some weird cuts.
My job is to do everything nobody else felt like doing today

Andries

Thank you.
. . . . and the Forum.
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woodworker9

Quote from: bluthum on January 26, 2017, 05:19:11 PM
I forgot to add both the 8 & 12 have the spring joint attachment which is a cam on a lever that cocks the out feed table to make a spring joint. I've never found any use for that feature! Does any one ever want to make a spring joint ? I don't get the theory.

A spring joint is the slight removal of material to create a small gap between two long grain joints, like when gluing up long boards for a table top.  I use them in my work all the time, as it requires less clamps, and clamping pressure in the middle of the boards creates pressure over the length of the joint. 

On a Yates American, or any 3 toed jointer, you will find a springing cam attachment on the lower part of the outfeed table.  What it does is tilts the outfeed table back just enough to force the cutterhead to remove about 1/32" of material in the center of the cut off the edge of the board.  Putting two boards next to each other, you'll see a gap of a little less than 1/16".

To answer other questions in this thread;

Berlin Machine Works was purchased by P.B. Yates Machine Co. in 1915.  The sole purpose of the purchase was to control of a few of the patents Berlin MW created.  In 1926, along with many, many other companies, American Tool Works Co., the largest of it's kind in the world, purchased and joined forces with P.B. Yates Co, becoming what is now known as Yates-American. 

I am a Yates American aficionado, and presently own several Yates American machines that I've restored myself.  I use them every day, including a Yates American #1 16" jointer.  In this picture of my Yates American #1 24" jointer, you can see the spring joint cam in the lower left hand corner of the wedge of the outfeed table.  It is painted black.



If you have this on your jointer, you should really give it a try.  It's an excellent way to make large table top glue ups much easier and better fitting.  They don't slide around as much.

The unique feature of the Berlin #199 shown above is that on it, the outfeed table is fixed.  You can only adjust the infeed table, and you set the machine after changing the knives by adjusting the cutterhead up or down in it's wayed column.  The lever discussed earlier is for locking it in place.  I restored a 16" version of that same jointer about 7 years ago.  A friend of mine uses it as his main shop jointer every day.

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woodworker9

Regarding spring joints, if you do not wish to mess with the settings on your machine, or if you don't have a machine that has a spring joint cam, you can easily create the same effect with a hand plane by following these steps;

First, take a jack plane and start your cut about 8" from center, and take a shaving with the plane fully skewed on the board until it's about 8" past center.  Roughly a 16" shaving.

Next, move your starting cut back about 12" to 18", and take another shaving, going 12" to 18" passed the end of the first pass with the hand plane.

Continue doing this with 3 or 4 passes with a very light shaving until you've reached about 12" from the start of the board.   

Repeat with the mating edge of the other board, and when you set them next to each other, you will see a small gap between them.  Glue up with clamps in the middle, and maybe one clamp on each end.   The "springing" of the boards forces clamping pressure out to the ends of the boards, thus making glue ups much faster.  It also has the secondary benefit of not needing an alignment aid like biscuits or dowels, because the edges of the board don't slid around against each other, as they are in compression.
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MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

Andries

Good info woodworker9.
You've got some beautiful equipment there.

On my Yates 199, the entire jointer is one casting, other than the infeed table and the cutter head box.

Question: on your 24" inch jointer, the copper coloured one above, it looks like both infeed and outfeed tables have the sliding wedge movements. Is that the case?
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woodworker9

Quote from: Andries on February 10, 2017, 12:47:41 PM
Good info woodworker9.
You've got some beautiful equipment there.

On my Yates 199, the entire jointer is one casting, other than the infeed table and the cutter head box.

Question: on your 24" inch jointer, the copper coloured one above, it looks like both infeed and outfeed tables have the sliding wedge movements. Is that the case?

Yes.  On their wedgebed jointers, the infeed and outfeed tables are both adjustable, unlike your Berlin.  Berlin is the only jointer I've ever seen where the outfeed table was fixed, and the cutterhead was adjustable.  Very nicely made machine, though.  Just different.

On all the 3-toed jointers, they all pretty much copied the same design, once the patent ran out.  Northfield, Moak, Yates American, Porter, American, F. Clement, and about 50 other manufacturers all made their jointers to this design, and they are all eerily close to each other.  On some, parts are even interchangeable. 

Northfield has one design that I really like, which is a pivoting foot under the single leg side. 

If I showed you the "before" photo on that 24" jointer, you'd laugh.  The only guys who were bidding on it besides me were scrappers.  It had been situated in a vacated warehouse for 4 years, and was directly underneath a busted and frozen sprinkler system water pipe.  There was a 3' tall stalagmite of ice completely encapsulating half the machine on auction day. 
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MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

Solomon

Quote from: woodworker9 on February 09, 2017, 03:15:10 PM
Quote from: bluthum on January 26, 2017, 05:19:11 PM
I forgot to add both the 8 & 12 have the spring joint attachment which is a cam on a lever that cocks the out feed table to make a spring joint. I've never found any use for that feature! Does any one ever want to make a spring joint ? I don't get the theory.
That's a stellar machine,  I am pea green with envy,  I live in a world of Jointer Envy  !
  I have a 10 inch General International with a mortise attachment and reversing switch.   Uses Spiral up cut router bits and has 1/4 and 1/2 inch collets.
Does small slot mortises, great for building wooden chairs, coffee tables or maybe a panel or table top where you would use a floating loose tennon or dowel but that's about it.
I want to go to a bigger jointer but from 10 to 12 inch just doesn't seem worthwhile.  Not a big enough jump so I'm waiting until I can afford a 16 inch machine before I make a move.   I will then keep the 10 inch and let my little open stand 6 inch Delta Jointer go.
Only have so much room in the shop.

A spring joint is the slight removal of material to create a small gap between two long grain joints, like when gluing up long boards for a table top.  I use them in my work all the time, as it requires less clamps, and clamping pressure in the middle of the boards creates pressure over the length of the joint. 

On a Yates American, or any 3 toed jointer, you will find a springing cam attachment on the lower part of the outfeed table.  What it does is tilts the outfeed table back just enough to force the cutterhead to remove about 1/32" of material in the center of the cut off the edge of the board.  Putting two boards next to each other, you'll see a gap of a little less than 1/16".

To answer other questions in this thread;

Berlin Machine Works was purchased by P.B. Yates Machine Co. in 1915.  The sole purpose of the purchase was to control of a few of the patents Berlin MW created.  In 1926, along with many, many other companies, American Tool Works Co., the largest of it's kind in the world, purchased and joined forces with P.B. Yates Co, becoming what is now known as Yates-American. 

I am a Yates American aficionado, and presently own several Yates American machines that I've restored myself.  I use them every day, including a Yates American #1 16" jointer.  In this picture of my Yates American #1 24" jointer, you can see the spring joint cam in the lower left hand corner of the wedge of the outfeed table.  It is painted black.



If you have this on your jointer, you should really give it a try.  It's an excellent way to make large table top glue ups much easier and better fitting.  They don't slide around as much.

The unique feature of the Berlin #199 shown above is that on it, the outfeed table is fixed.  You can only adjust the infeed table, and you set the machine after changing the knives by adjusting the cutterhead up or down in it's wayed column.  The lever discussed earlier is for locking it in place.  I restored a 16" version of that same jointer about 7 years ago.  A friend of mine uses it as his main shop jointer every day.
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