E Classic Fire Brick Fell Out!!!

[waorgany]

Hi just wnated to let everyone know that we have had an issue with our eClassic. Went away for a day and when came home the fire was out, (gone along time) no worries, water temp was still at 89. So I cleaned out the stove and re built the fire went back awhile later and the second fire brick in on the left had fallen out. This was about 7pm SAT so I removed the brick from the stove and called the dealer (Cell) since it was after hours, said they had never heard anything like that before but where sure it would be warranteed. So I followed up with a call this morning, they said that I was the 2nd customer today!!! That called in and said this, and that they have talked with another dealer who had new stoves arrive with loose bricks too. They told me that the other dealer talked to Central Boiler and that they told them that they were no longer going to have the fire bricks in the eclassics due to problems? I am now waiting to hear from the dealer what they and Central Boiler are going to do??? Check your bricks..more to follow.

[antos_ketcham]

The question is, what is CB going to do instead of firebrick and what does that mean for all of us who have brick?  :

[waorgany]

Here is what I found out today from my local dealer...not sure I like the sound of it but this is what they told me. CB is no longer putting bricks in the stoves, it is fine to run it like that...any new stoves sent out from Cb will NOT have bricks in them, no need to put it back and when I went to load it tonight another one on the same side near the back looks loose too. Sounds like they have a bad way of adhering the bricks to the steal and are no longer going to use them. I might have to call CB myself and get the bottom line up front. Will keep ya posted. Stay warm.

[antos_ketcham]

Here is what I found out today from my local dealer...not sure I like the sound of it but this is what they told me. CB is no longer putting bricks in the stoves, it is fine to run it like that...any new stoves sent out from Cb will NOT have bricks in them, no need to put it back and when I went to load it tonight another one on the same side near the back looks loose too. Sounds like they have a bad way of adhering the bricks to the steal and are no longer going to use them. I might have to call CB myself and get the bottom line up front. Will keep ya posted. Stay warm.

Fortunately for now all my bricks seem firmly attached. Do please update us when you get the word from CB. I guess what I want to know for certain is, if the bricks do crack or fall out if we can remove/leave them out and be fine that way. Thanks.

Pete

[waorgany]

Fortunately for now all my bricks seem firmly attached. Do please update us when you get the word from CB. I guess what I want to know for certain is, if the bricks do crack or fall out if we can remove/leave them out and be fine that way. Thanks.

Pete

Pete that is what my dealer told me, just leave it out no need to put it back in, it will be ok. But then why was it in there in the first place. I and I am sure everyone else paid X amount of extra money for those bricks, and now they are falling out, so what gives? Do we get a prorated portion of the cost of our stoves back? What about the dealers, they have paid extra for a stove with bricks??? Hmmm Haven't called CB yet on my lsit of things to get too. Will update soon.

[beenthere]

I was under the impression that bricks were placed in wood/coal burners, more for the coal than for the wood.

Sounds like they are telling the same thing. They just take up space, IMO.  ;D

[renegadecj]

I guess I wasn't aware the bricks weren't SUPPOSED to be loose.  I thought they were just laid in there at an angle, and stayed that way.  Are you talking about the fire bricks in the burner area, or the ones down in the ash area?

Definitely keep us up to date with what you find out!

[Jeff]

I don't know this, its just my guess, but I am guessing the bricks are in there simply for the additional thermal storage they provide not as a heat shield.

[waorgany]

I guess I wasn't aware the bricks weren't SUPPOSED to be loose.  I thought they were just laid in there at an angle, and stayed that way.  Are you talking about the fire bricks in the burner area, or the ones down in the ash area?

Definitely keep us up to date with what you find out!

renegade,

yeah these are the bricks inside the fire box (where the wood goes/burns) not down below in the reaction chamber.

[Hackberry]

How long had you been burning the stove before the bricks started falling out?  I fired mine on 12-4-08 and the bricks are still in place.  Mine seem very tight when I scape them.  Hackberry

[logwalker]

I would consider putting them back in with red RTV silicone. It is a high temp sealant/adhesive. There is also a specific furnace cement that will work also. The bricks serve the purpose of maintaining a higher firebox temperature and that will help with the gasification of the wood. It should help when burning wetter wood also. That boiler was designed and certified with the bricks in place and the EPA might want to know that they are recommending you leave them out. Joe

[MudBud]

I had one delivered that had fallen out during shipping.  My dealer said to use a high temp furnace cement or adhesive.  Home Cheapo or a local wood stove dealer carries it for about $5.  It did well to hold it in, however you must prep it well to insure a good adhesion.

[beenthere]

I've a question...what is behind the steel that the fire brick is adhered to?  Is it air space that gets heated, or is it water in a water jacket?

Because these OWB apparently have induced draft, I suspect the temps can get quite hot...thus the need for firebrick. But, I'm surprised a bit that it isn't water that would keep those temps down, and transfer more heat to the water.

Just curious. Something that comes to mind, as I wondered why have the fire brick in a wood burning system. I thought it was just for coal burning. But hadn't considered the induced draft that is mentioned with these outdoor boilers.  : :

[cb6048]

Hello I'm new here;

It is with no intention to offend anyone here that I say I'm glad I made the decision to go with my cl6048, I was up in the air on which one to get.  I know of at least three people that have the EClassic that said to me "why would you want that stove?" Well this right here is one, along with longer burn time, the ability to burn whatever wood I choose, and simplistic design of central boilers bread and butter stove, perfected, tried and true.

Not sure about removing that firebrick its there for a reason. I was under the impression that the EClassic ran a lot hotter firebox?

Pete

[antos_ketcham]

Hello I'm new here;

It is with no intention to offend anyone here that I say I'm glad I made the decision to go with my cl6048, I was up in the air on which one to get.  I know of at least three people that have the EClassic that said to me "why would you want that stove?" Well this right here is one, along with longer burn time, the ability to burn whatever wood I choose, and simplistic design of central boilers bread and butter stove, perfected, tried and true.

Not sure about removing that firebrick its there for a reason. I was under the impression that the EClassic ran a lot hotter firebox?

Pete

I'd have to say that having owned both a traditional CB - the 5036 - and now an E-Classic, that the E-Classic really is a better machine if for no other reason than it uses so much less wood and therefore is less work. It also goes 24hrs on a load when my 5036 would require morning and night feeding. So this issue with the brick notwithstanding, there are clear advantages to this new unit. I can still burn whatever I choose - there really is no other difference other than I can't put in really large diameter rounds - there is a little splitting involved in the wood prep. Not bad. Good luck everyone.

Pete

[Jeff]

I talked with the central boiler dealer here last night and he explained to me about the fire brick. Indeed, in the last units delivered to him, the firebrick is no longer used on the sides, but is still on the bottom. In the initial design of the e-classic it was thought that the firebrick were needed to maintain sufficient combustion temps to burn clean enough to be EPA Hydronic Heater Program qualified and meet the Phase 2 emissions levels.  Through further testing it has been shown and proven that the unit does this without the side  firebrick. So, its no longer part of the design

The reason the firebrick come loose and crack is from creosote getting behind them and expanding. If you are burning fuel that is not seasoned, you will get more creosote. The dealer says from his experience with his personal stove, is that the e-classic works best with properly seasoned wood, that is as mentioned, split.

[cb6048]

Hello I'm new here;

It is with no intention to offend anyone here that I say I'm glad I made the decision to go with my cl6048, I was up in the air on which one to get.  I know of at least three people that have the EClassic that said to me "why would you want that stove?" Well this right here is one, along with longer burn time, the ability to burn whatever wood I choose, and simplistic design of central boilers bread and butter stove, perfected, tried and true.

Not sure about removing that firebrick its there for a reason. I was under the impression that the EClassic ran a lot hotter firebox?

Pete

I'd have to say that having owned both a traditional CB - the 5036 - and now an E-Classic, that the E-Classic really is a better machine if for no other reason than it uses so much less wood and therefore is less work. It also goes 24hrs on a load when my 5036 would require morning and night feeding. So this issue with the brick notwithstanding, there are clear advantages to this new unit. I can still burn whatever I choose - there really is no other difference other than I can't put in really large diameter rounds - there is a little splitting involved in the wood prep. Not bad. Good luck everyone.

Pete

I have found with my cl6048 I have no problem going 28 hours on about 2/3s full that was on a night at 9deg day high of 18 deg. 2500 sq.ft house.......thats not to shabby!

[MudBud]

Well after 2 months of on and off running, I lost a firebrick as well on the left side in the front. the one next to it is on its way out as well.  As you stated it looks like a creosote buildup behind it as the material scraps off easily.  However seeing what a refractory setup is like in kilns, dryers and mills, this shouldn't happen. It looks like a poor setup and time to call the dealer and factory as well.  I will post once I hear what they have to say as well.

[waorgany]

Well, I have not been able to reach the CB people as of yet, I will try again Monday after the holiday. I am burning green wood and do have some creosolte build up but not too bad. I noticed after the first brick fell out several more had cracked across the center on both sides left and right. Now this morning I am missing two more bricks...another one on the left and one on the right. I agree that these should not be coming out. My stove temps (water) usually range from 175-185. I burn both split and unsplit wood. We had the stove installed at the end of OCT 08. I am pretty amazed at how well this stove performs and the heat we get to heat our house. We live in a stone house built in 1850 and it is usually very cold in winter we used to keep it around 50-55 and went through fuel oil like mad...now we keep the house at 70-75 and love it!!! But we and many others paid good money for a stove with fire bricks and now they are falling out. I think that CB should replace them all and warranty this and not just say its ok if they fall out and we are no longer shipping them with bricks everything is ok. I think that is a bunch of crap and will let them know about it once I speak to someone besides my stealership. Thanks again I will keep everyone posted. Happy New Year.

[beenthere]

waorgany
Was the CB sold as wood and coal burning? ...or just wood?

Maybe just remove all the brick (on the sides), and figure that is what your replacement stove would be if CB were to "upgrade" it, as now they apparently sell the new without brick ??  ???

Or do you want them to replace all the brick?

Jeff's post with info from the CB dealer seems to set the firebrick saga straight. Remove the sides and be glad there is then more room for more wood.  ;D ;D

[waorgany]

waorgany
Was the CB sold as wood and coal burning? ...or just wood?

Maybe just remove all the brick (on the sides), and figure that is what your replacement stove would be if CB were to "upgrade" it, as now they apparently sell the new without brick ??  ???

Or do you want them to replace all the brick?

Jeff's post with info from the CB dealer seems to set the firebrick saga straight. Remove the sides and be glad there is then more room for more wood.  ;D ;D

Yeah just for wood, with the bricks removed you will only gain about an inch or so on each side and only on the lower half so i don't think that you gain too much. It is just the principle that they market and sold it with the firebricks and now have changed their song and dance. I will know more when i talk to CB directly as the local people dont seem to concerned, they have already sold it to me and now its basically my problem. All the best.

[Jeff]

Jeff's post with info from the CB dealer seems to set the firebrick saga straight.

Maybe my new cloak of invisibility is finally working! 8)

[JJ]

my dealer allready told me to expect this (fire brick falling out).
He also  says that the bricks are only added by advisement of EPA testing and were not part of stove design.
       JJ

[Don_Papenburg]

If your "fire brick" is only an inch or so  it is tile not brick  it is intended for the floor.  Self respecting fire brick would be at least 3" wide and laidup in refactory cement .

Red silicone is only good for 800* F  not high enough for a wood fire.

[stumper]

Interesting that the "great factory warranty" does not cover this and according to my dealer never covered this.  Clearly a defect in design, material and workmanship, as evidenced by its elimination in later boilers.  Kind of makes you wonder just what the warranty will cover?

[gapperpolice]

Hello I had the same issue with the bricks falling out. I called cb I was told just to take them all out. I pulled them all out.

[Tombstone]

 Have a new 6048 no bricks, no problems been burning 3 months non-stop so far so good!

[MudBud]

Gapper, I have lost a couple and if I get a letter from CB authorizing me to pull them I will.  I would hate that by word of mouth may cause a problem with warranty issues 20 years from now.  Also did they offer any rebate for the extra cost of putting them in and now we don't need them?  I hope so!!!

Does this also go on the ash pit area down below?

[whitepineheating]

Gapper,  hope I can help.  I put mine in back in Feb. 2008 I was the first dealer in Michigan to get an E-Classic.  Feb. March, April, May, my fire brick stayed in place but did crack not fall out.  The fall season started and around Nov. half fell out and have not taken the rest out yet.    The furnace is still working just fine do not see and difference in  useing more or less wood.  In December I did get 3 new E-Classic in for stock to sell and they did not have fire brick in them.  Sold 2 and the folks did not care about the new ones without the brick.
Your other question, yes keep it clean in the reaction chamber.  I take ash out of there every other week.
Hope that helps...Kevin 

[gapperpolice]

If there is any question call cb right away. I contacted my dealer and he also confirmed that the bricks should come out. CB is notify dealers at this time but have not mailed out any updates to owners as of today.

[gapperpolice]

hello I was also advised to only remove the bricks on the right and left side against the water jacket. and to leave in the bricks below the air holes alone.

[waorgany]

Hello again everyone, welcome to the missing brick thread!!! OK...I have now lost, let me count, 12 total bricks, these include all of the lower wall bricks on both sides with the exception of the front two (one on each side), and the back two (also one on each side). Many had fallen out by themselves, some had cracked and half stayed and half fell into the fire box, a few others I removed when cleaning out the ash for the last time for 2008. I talked to Ryan at CB on the 31st of DEC, and said that I do not need to worry everything is fine. They no longer ship eClassic 2300's with these side fire bricks in place, they do not change any of the EPA requirements for this stove, everything is fine...still doesn't explain why they are falling out and why WE all paid for the bricks, and aren't covered under warranty and just have to suck it up and get on with staying warm. I guess that we are all just guinea pigs along for the experiment and have to live with it. The stove works great with or without the bricks, I guess I am still not sold on the idea of a design that had (faux) fire bricks in place to help with burning of the wood and now are no longer needed. Only time will tell if the advice we have gotten from CB and our dealerships is correct. Happy New Years to everyone, thanks for all the great information on this site. All the best for 2009  8) ;D

[beenthere]

Just look at them as extras (like a bow and ribbon on a present) that they threw in.  ;D
If they won't stay in, seems you are better off not having them to deal with.
I'd think a good layer of ash would be better than the firebrick anyway.  : :

So according to gapperpolice, there is water behind the steel that has the firebrick on the sides?
If so, that water will keep the steel cool and not affected by the heat from the fire. And it will be cool enough to have a good thick coating of creosote, if like mine.

[stumper]

Did the lower the price on the new ones? 

We certainly paid more then we should have if they are not needed.  One we paid for the bricks (probably .50 a brick).  Two we paid for the extra steel and welding or bending for the lips above  and below the bricks.  More steel and more work. 

I would rather have the money then a pile of used and/or broken fire bricks.  If they refund the difference to me then I'll consider it a "bow and a ribbon".

[Jeff]

If it was me, and I was central boiler, I would increase my price rather then reduce it. Help pay for the time and expenses that they have to burn dealing with unsatisfiable customers.  There are thousands and thousands of products that start out one way and through use become better and cheaper via the first customer "testing". Buying something that is brand new to the market place is taking a risk that you might not have if you waited for the next generations to come out.  its the same with all high tech products and that is exactly what these stoves are. High tech cutting edge technology that will improve in time.

I think I'll shed some tears now about how my seems like new to me tube type television, that I paid more for then, then what a 36" flat plasma costs now. I should have waited. They should have told me this was coming.

[stumper]

You are correct new technology does come with some issues.  That is exactly why I chose Central Boiler and not Bob's back yard boiler. Best company and reputation.

I also bought a motorola cell phone for the same reasons.  Difference is that when it went bad the said sorry we had this problem with the new phone and then repaired it.  No questions, no excuses, and no the warranty does not cover that.

[Jeff]

I also bought a motorola cell phone for the same reasons.  Difference is that when it went bad the said sorry we had this problem with the new phone and then repaired it.  No questions, no excuses, and no the warranty does not cover that.

So, your saying that the boiler is bad because the bricks are cracking? According to all reports, that's just not the case.

[stumper]

No I am saying that I bought from what I thought was the best company so that I did not have any issues with new technology.  I thought that they would do the best research & engineering and produce the best product with out any issues, and that if there were any they would stand behind the product.

I am disappointed with their responce to issues. 
1. Fire going out - result paper clip from this site and supported through my dealer. Question if it invalidates EPA test and is legal
2.  Wood gas explosion/fire balls - Responce is that is the nature of the beast and you should feed it when cool, work great when I do not have to work and have time in my schedlue, not practical on the days I work.  Just have to learn to stand behind the door or learn to like the short eyebrows.
3. Fire bricks - first responce was that is not covered, then modified to those are not needed.
4. Winter shutdown - first responce just flip the switch (answer through the dealer and would have resulted in freeze up), second chance through the dealer resulted in no responce, I proposed a solution and the dealer OKed it and checked with the company a 3rd time, no responce.  I contacted the company directly, again told to flip the switch (freeze up) when I explained the issue with that they said just leave it on with out wood (blowing cold air through the boiler and continupus opperation of the blower for the duration of the shutdown), then they said run an extension cord, I expalined my concern about tripping the ground fault outlet and freeze up and suggested hard wiring another outlet or rewiring the outlet in the boiler.  The tech support guy said he would check into it and get back to me -result -no responce since prior to Christmas.

In particular I am concerned about what their responce will be if there is an issue that I can not solve (with the help of this site and or the dealer).

[Jeff]

I can see where you have reason to be concerned with all of those things going on at once.

[Dana]

Stumper, For winterizing your boiler why not just put boiler anti-freeze in the furnace. You can then shut down her and have peace of mind.

[Reddog]

Dana, Stumper had a thread going on that and it looked like mainly cost.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,34333.msg502672.html#msg502672

[Reddog]

In particular I am concerned about what their responce will be if there is an issue that I can not solve (with the help of this site and or the dealer).

After you listed out the issues, I do see your concern.

I hope you never find something that stumps this group. ;)

[stumper]

I understand that you loose efficency with anti freeze as well.  Also this is the first time I will have had more then 4 days off in a row in more the 7 years so a repeat every year is unlikely.

I have pulled and additional line through the conduit and wired an additional outlet.  Thankfully I installed conduit instead of direct burial.  

[DouginUtah]

I can't discuss this in technical terms but I know there is anti-freeze and there is anti-freeze--meaning that you do not use automobile anti-freeze, rather you use RV anti-freeze. You are correct that you loose efficiency by using automobile anti-freeze.

[JJ]

Hi Stumper
My E-classic thermostat goes down to 150F.
My oil boiler is set to 170F (e-classic is set to 187F).

When I idle e-classic to 150F, the wrap around pump (on oil boiler) and heat exchanger (works both ways) keeps water in e-classic above 160F, and works as heat storage.

Try this (lower e-classic to 150F), and I think blower, and air vent solonoids will stay off, if you have addtional boiler e-classic is connecting to with heat exchanger.

I think only heat losses is going up chimney (from hot water jacket around boiler), but that is in both directions with both my inside oil boiler and outside wood boiler.
I think this is case as I can see heat rising from my oil boiler chimney, even when it is not running.

               JJ

[waorgany]

Well I got the offical notice this week from my dealer from CB to remove all the interior fire bricks on the walls inside the fire box that they are no longer neccisary!!! So there ya have it, take em out they say it will be easier to clean and will not affect the performance. They also enclosed a flier on bridging and how to prevent it, and how to keep your fire buring hot.. best of luck to all. I have about half the bricks in and the other half as you know have fallen out.

[beenthere]

What is the trick to avoid the bridging?

and how to keep the fire hot?

[leeallen]

My dealer told me the same thing. Rick Young in Conway,NH has been extremely helpful to me as a CB dealer. He goes out of his way to check on my eclassic and even made a site visit on his own accord- I am an hour from him in Maine.
I have taken a lot of the brick out on the left side  - all are still present on the right- I suspect this might help with the bridging issue too. Any chance you could post the flyer regarding bridging on this site??? Thanks.

[leeallen]

ooppppppss - forgot to ask
Does anyone know if the brick in the reaction chamber are set in there or are they glued in with furnance cement. Luckily , I took some pictures of the primary burn chamber and the reaction chamber before I fired my stove up. They prove helpful to look at once in a while to refresh my memory of what things looked like when the stove was new. I think once the stove gets several years of use and  I need to do more maintainence on it, the pictures will help even more.
I am anxious to see what changes CB makes next year to correct issues that we have faced in 08-09.

[beenthere]

leeallen
Would you post some of the "before" and after pics you have?

I'd be interested....and we like pics.

thanks  (chase them down with the Java Uploader after you have your gallery).

[MudBud]

LeeAllen, yes they are glued/cemented in and I had one that fell out during shipping.  I installed it with firebox cement purchased at Home Cheapo and it still is in, about $6.

I have pics of the entire unit at different sections I will try and post.

[leeallen]

I have the pictures on my work computer - I can post them tomorrow.Lee