Drive Hub

[Mike_Worthan]

Hello fellas.  New to the board.  I am in the process of finalizing plans for a simple saw type design and can't source out a part... the drive hub.  I figured some of you have used trailer tires on your home-mades and must have figured out how to mount the drive hub to an axle.  Seems that all I can find in live axle hubs are for ATV's or go-karts (wrong bolt pattern).  Thanks for your input.

[ADfields]

Welcome to the board! 8)

I don't understand just what you are trying to do hear.  You say you want a "live axle" and can't find one but they are under most cars, trucks and what not you just add the bearings to make them live.   You can get keyed wheel hubs to put on shaft stock to make up a "live axle" any way you want one.   We will need more info from you so we can get you pointed the right way.   Are you building a band mill, circle mill, gang saw or what?   What bolt pattern are you looking for and what do you want to bolt to it?   What are you thinking of driving it with, a shaft, flat or V-belt from what kind of motor?   Love to help just need more info! :-/
Andy

[D._Frederick]

Mike,
Would an axle out of a rear drive car or pickup meet your requirements? It would have the hub on it for mounting to a tire rim.

[jwood]

evening mike..the last one i built i used hubs form northern toolhttps://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=position"> Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company..it was #1-2190...but i see on their site that its no longer listed..it looks  like their # 138291 but i dont know about the bolt spacing..you might call  and ask if the 2190 is discontinued...good luck

[ADfields]

Hear is a link to jwood's #138291 hub.   It is a keyed type hub like I mentioned before.

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=4006970&storeId=6970&productId=52526&langId=-1

Hear is a far better source for all kinds of this stuff but not as cheep.   They have a great catalog but you must be a customer to view the hole thing online, call them and ask for a paper one to ponder over.
 http://www.baumhydraulics.com/default.htm

Also a good source for some of this stuff is W.W. Grainger @.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/start.shtml


Agen, great to have you aboard! 8)
Andy

[Mike_Worthan]

Sorry about the lack of pertinant info needed.  What I am thinking of using is a 4.80x12 trailer rim and tire setup (20.5" O.D.)  for the bandwheels.  I know that the idler wheel would be a standard spindle & hub but the keyed hub that fits a standard 4 on 4" or 5 on 4 1/2" rim is hard for me to find.  Maybe not looking in the right place.  I did find plenty of sources for the keyed shaft, pillow bearings and sheaves for the v-belt drive I plan to use.  It will be a manual mill, 13hp honda probably (might try to opt for a higher HP motor if possible), two or four post design (wouldn't mind trying a cantilevered head but not sure what the design considerations are on such a design)... just trying to keep it simple and dependable.  I have made the rounds in my head about what I expect to do with this machine and initially started specing out parts to go hydraulic, electric drive, so on and so forth.  I am now thinking that I can do what I need to with a much simpler (realistic) setup.  I also believe that it will mostly have to keep up with my own needs and I wouldn't neccessarily need a lot of production out of it, just simplicity.

[ADfields]

I will be running a axle out of a Dodge 1/2 ton PU slid into pillow bearings and turned to fit common size so it's not a custom bearing.   This axle is a 5 on 4-1/2" bolt pattern.   Harold (FL-Deadheader) took a big pipe and made an offset pulley that bolts on the trailer hub behind the tire so the belt runs right behind the tire.   He used a cast iron pulley and cut the spokes so they fit over the pipe and bolted from the inside into taped holes in each spoke as I understand it.   It broke somehow and I never got the story of how he has it now.   We had a guy that welded a pulley right to the back of the rim also but I don't know how that went. :-/   My buddy next door is using 15" car tiers from the junk yard and the V-belt just wraps around the tire right behind the band, works fine for him. ;)

I have a catalog from someone with the keyed hubs like you want but I cant find the thing right off.   Just got back from a week in Arizona and the house sitter is a neat freak. >:(   I will let you know when I find it.
Andy

[jwood]

afternoon  mike...you might try  surplus center they list some  5bolt wheel hubs that wld fit trailer wheels only they are 1 1/4  taper shaft but thats easy to get around..
their # is 1-800-488-3407  or look at www.surpluscenter
under wheel hub search they list a couple..also the 530-12
 tires are 21.5  i think ,which is what i used..be sure to have them balanced  ..i was at homedepot today and saw that they had  480 and 530 's ..530's were $42 ...did't sort thru to see if they had 5 bolt..good luck

[ADfields]

Thanks jwood, that is the catalog I have and just found in the trash. >:( >:(   You left off the .com in your post so hear it is as a link. ;)
http://www.surpluscenter.com/

And the hub page it's self.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?UID=2003121815235770&catname=&byKeyword=yes&search=wheel%20hub

Andy

[jwood]

thanks AD i just went to surplus and tried to search wheel hubs and it says none to be found.i had wrote down the part #
1-2126 ..first time it came up a flange bearing..2 nd time a hub
..a tapered shaft might make for a tighter fit ..less vibration..

[Kevin_H.]

Hey there is a lot of cool stuff on that surplus center, you could spend hours just looking at all the stuff. had to put that one in the favorites.

[Wudman]

Mike,

I used the axles out of a 9" Ford rearend.  I had to turn them down to fit a standard size pillow block.  The setup works very well for me.  I turned one end down to fit a 1" hub with a 15" pulley.  The axles were acquired at the local pick a part yard (about $5 each).  Pillow blocks came from Agri Supply (about $15 each).  The machine work was the expensive part.....cost about $150 to turn the two axles.  I guarantee that I will never ring an axle, though.  By the way, I used a four post design.  Good Luck.

Wudman

[ADfields]

Thats just what I did with my Dodge axle.   My machine work was $35 for 1 axle and the other side is a trailer hub.   Someday I will get time to make a sawmill out of my pile of parts out there! :
Andy

[Fla._Deadheader]

Hey Andy, my Pulley didn't break. Works like a charm. I think the new guy is using part numbers from Northern and looking in Surplus Center. The page he wants is 157, bottom right corner. Why don't these new guys ask their questions when I'm home ??? : ;D ;D :D :D :D :D :D

  How cold is it in Palmer??? think thats where ya live : :D :D

[ADfields]

Yup, I live just out of Palmer and it's 18 and snowing right now.   Just like I like it. 8) :D :D :D :D


I know just the mentioning of temps in the teens AND snow will have you shrieking but your fine!   Your still in Florida! ;)      :D :D :D    

Now what was the deal with your pulley?   I remember something happened with it when the high class VW motor went or just before that.   Maybe I got my wires crossed, that would be nothing new. :-/
Andy

[Fla._Deadheader]

Andy, never had a problem with that pulley adapter. I had fabbed up a shaft extension for the VW and it slipped back and disengaged from the flywheel. The engine developed a "tapping" sound.??? Otherwise, it's purt-near the same set-up.

[D._Frederick]

The hub that the Surplus Center has on page 157 was made for an inch shaft which is on the small side for your application. If you can't find anything better, at least go with a shaft that is harder than cold rolled.

[cluckerplucker]

mike I tried to send a picture of what Ibuilt but cannot get it small enough .send me your email  and ill send a photo. of what I built. I used a 11/4 shaft and turnned it down to 1in and keyed it to fit the 1 in. hub. the tire is from harbor fright 4 lug 20.5 in dia.the pillow blocks are from agri supply at 8 bucks.each.the pully from the local salvage yard. Cecil

[cluckerplucker]

 lets see if this works  thanks to tom , cecil

[edsaws]

Hey Cluckerplucker, thats tire set up looks similar to what i'm workin' on. Does it work ok? I'll not be able to attempt any cutting until springtime thanks

[cluckerplucker]

mike  So far it seems to work, that is run without the blade coming off ,I haven,t put it to wood yet I have to find the time to build the blade guard. And I am waiting for the dc motor to come in so I can rig it to the Acme  screws that lift the head up and down. When you slide the 11/2 square tube inside of the 2in tube there will be play.I drilled holes off center on the side of the 2in. tube and welded nuts so I can adjust the picth .of the wheel.I tightened up the bolts till the blade rode in the center of the wheel without the guides.I adjusted the vertical plane with a carpenter level.  cecil

[donald_harby]

Just an idea but if you use a 3/4 or 1 ton full floating axle hubs you could use a small diameter axle.  the axle would only transmit the torque.  Plus the idle wheel would be easy to set up.  

[T_in_SC]

Hey Mike,

Welcome to the forum.  I'm a Newbie too.  I built a two post mill on William Rake's design using a 13hp Honda.  I was having the same problem as you are.  I used a 1 1/4 cold rolled steel drive shaft and two trailer hubs from northern toolhttps://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=position"> Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company.  I found shaft collars (Dayton 2X740) at Grainger that were a close fit between the shaft and the outer rim of the hub.  Welded these together using stainless steel rods.  I was told these were the best kind to use on dissimilar metals.  I've only cut about 1500 BFT so far but this drive system and the tires seem to work fine.

[D._Frederick]

T.,
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the way you welded the shaft to the hub your looking for a failure. It has been my experience that it will start to form a crack following the weld resulting in the hub breaking off. You will never see a factory made equipment welded that way.

[ADfields]

I must agree with D. on this one. :-/   It's fine on the end of the shaft but you should never weld all the way around a shaft like that.   If you must weld the back side it would be far better to put 1/4" spot welds with 1/4" skiped around it, called skip welding.   Like it is, at some point the shaft will fail right next to the weld and look like it was cut off with a saw. :-[   Sorry :-/
Andy

[etat]

Well, if it were mine I would weld all the way around.  I've made more than a few axels, both with hollow pipe, and solid shafts.  The stainless steel rods make me nervous, so does the look of the weld.  Before I say anything else it would be in your best intrest to get a guard on this outfit.  Might, or might not save getting seriously injured or maimed.  When welding a shaft to a hub, I make the first weld with a 6011 rod, welder set on ac, then let it cool back down and grind the tacks smooth and make sure all the slag is removed.  Then for strength I switch to a 7018 rod, welder set on dc. and alternate welding from one side to the other.  run the bead 1'4 of the way on one side, and then 1/4 of the way on the opposing side.  If it is properly tacked together it won't pull from the heat.  Let it cool back down, remove all slag, and and then connect the welds, again you well be welding on opposing sides.  It is better to have a professional making welds such as this.  If you are worried that the heat from the welding has affected the integerity of the shaft you can go another step and retemper it.  This would involve heating the WHOLE thing, up to red heat.  All bearings and seals would have to be removed.  Then you want it to cool back down.  SLOWELY.  The slower the better.  The best way to accomplish this is to bury it in oil dry and let it cool down overnight.  This isn't always necessary, but it is the best method.  I once welded a truck axel back together after it broke, and it lasted as long as the truck.  One ton truck Ford, dual  wheels. -Ground the ends where it broke to a point.  Tacked it together.  Chipped and let it cool down naturally.  Don't use water.  SLOWLY, worked my way around building up the weld, chipping slag, and grinding.  Once the weld was built up all the way around, and all the way through, heated and tempered, as said.  Heating and cooling fast makes metal hard, but brittle.  Heating and cooling slow, not near as hard, but strong.  A whole different thing, but another example on tempering.  You would want a knife, or an ax, to have a really hard edge that will hold that edge.  But you want the body of the ax to be STRONG, and not brittle.  There a number of ways to acomplish this.  Here is one.  The ax, or knife would have to be off the handle.  Heat the ax to red hot, or non magnetic.  Dip the edge of the red hot ax, use tongs, in the oil.  Gonna be a lot of smoke.  Do not dip more than an inch of the ax in the oil.  Try to have everything arranged so you can leave it like this.  Make sure your'e outside.  Have a pretty good sized pan or bucket for the oil or it will catch on fire. The edge will cool fast enough so the temper will be hard.  The body of the ax will cool slowly, and thus be tough.  This will also work for chisels and many other tools.  You want a chisel edge to be hard.  But you want the part you hit with the hammer soft enough that it won't shatter when you hit it.  Sorry for ramblin and getting WAY off topic.

[T_in_SC]

Hmmmmm, Thanks for the headsup guys.  One reason the welds appear so ragged, other than my inexperience, is that I spot welded first on one side then the other until I got all the way around.  I was thinking the size of the shaft would make up for any weakness.

[Fla._Deadheader]

I'm glad "D" and AD posted about the welding. I know they are offering experience and I was very concerned also.
 There is a LOT of forces happening with the trailer wheels-tires.
  Since there is not a lot of extra spacer protruding from the hub, Possibly having a longer spacer made at a machine shop as an extension, would relieve some of the stress around the original weld. Grind the weld down and install the extension from the other end of the shaft. Weld the extensions together and maybe put a hard bolt through the shaft and extension, close to the bearing, to help take the strain off the weld on the end of the shaft. A keyway would have been nice, but, I KNOW how difficult they are to cut, by hand.
  Glad ya took the advice in stride. Guys here only want to see things done safely. I posted to a new member once, and he took it badly. :

   SOOOOO, how does it work, overall???  Where's the BIG pictures??? ??? ;D ;D ;D

[woodhaven]

cktate,
I have used your method of tempering for years and it has always worked well for me. My question is:
Do you know a way to test for the Rockwell Hardness  C scale ?
I have to take the item to the closest Tool & Die shop now. It would be nice to be able to check it here at home without a million dollar machine.

[etat]

woodhaven I do not have a home brewed test for hardness that is completely accurate per the Rockwell scale.  More of an by the ear type thing.  I usually do my test with a file or chisel.  The harder it is, the less the file will scratch it.  You can test a chisel on the side of the anvil.  If it will cut into the anvil without dulling the point it is considered just about right.  If a file will not cut into it at all it is harder.  If you were fabricating say a die for a machine for a customer you would absolutely want to have it tested accurately, too hard and it will fail, too soft and it will fail.  Sorry I can't be more help there.
 
 

[etat]

Think I ought to add when tempering some of the newer alloys don't act right.  Some of these alloys are air hardening and require no quenching at all.  If you do quench them they're libal to shatter. I know very little about these alloys, and when building something try to stay away from them.  If welding or repairing cast iron, or many other structural metals the piece needs to be preheated before welding, and allowed to cool very, very slowly.  Or it'll be prone to crack just beside the weld.  A piece such as rebar, as an example, is really no good for forging, or using when building something other than using in concrete because of the varietys and types of junk metal that may be used it.  

[T_in_SC]

FLA_Deadheader,

Here is the big picture. It seems to work well overall.  Of course I've never run another mill so I don't have anything to compare it to.  I think I will eventually upgrade from the homemade quides like you mentioned in a recent thread.  I also plan to build a guard around the drive belt and add front covers and maybe back covers to the blade guard.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Looks good "T". Covers will make it very safe. What length logs, 10' ???

[woodhaven]

cktate,
I know exactly what you are saying. A lot of this imported steel is just junk. I think some of it is melted down stuff from Mars. I hate it when you spend a lot of time cutting out a part just right and then find out it won't weld or braze without a lot of encouragement.

[etat]

Wait a minute!  I want to get back to the subject at hand.  Specifically, I'd like to hear more details about the plans for your sawmill T_in_SC.  I'd heard you could build your own using hubs and tires and such but that looks really good!

[woodhaven]

Oooop's Sorry, I was drifting away. AGAIN

[dan-l-b]

That is a good looking setup you got there T.  If that was your first cant sawn, you went at it whole hog,   8) 8) Congratts

[T_in_SC]

Thanks fellas;

Fla_DH
As it stands it will cut up to 12' x 30".  I may extend it later.

cktate
I bought the plans from William Rake.  He has built many of these and sold plans to lot of others that have built them.  The mills sold by Turner Sawmills are nearly identical.  Mr. Rake is also very helpful when you email him with questions.  Here is his website.
http://pennswoods.net/~zigbug/

[Fla._Deadheader]

The mill is bigger than it looks in the picture ;) ;D