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Pulling out the stopper on the Mississippi?

Started by Stan snider, May 01, 2011, 11:54:49 AM

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Stan snider

The Mississippi is only .24 feet from having authorization to blow the levee at Birds Point Missouri to activate the floodway which hasn't been done since 1937. It will inundate 205 square miles and have up to 500,000 cubic feet per second of flow.

It seems to me that this hasn't made the news it deserves with commodity prices where they are and planting delayed. 130,000 acres of cropland in the floodway much of which is already flooded will be severely damaged by the flowing water where now it is only backwater. About 100 farms in the area and 300 people.

It is raining in the area now.

http://rivers.anglerguide.com/flows/hw3.php?forecast=riversobs&gauge=CIRI2

http://www.mvm.usace.army.mil/hydraulics/memphis.asp            On this site go to water control,then gauge readings,then current river stages, then Mississippi ,then look at the plots on the right. Cairo is the Key for the floodway opening. One place I read said 60' was the trigger point and another said 61. By the shape of that graph 61 looks well within reach.

WH_Conley

I have been following the story about this. Some mighty tough calls to make. There is no good solution.
Bill

Magicman

And no way of knowing what affects it will have on the lower Mississippi.  There are several weak links.
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Cedarman

With both the Ohio and Mississippi at flood stage where they meet and plenty of water headed south, what are they saying about the lower Mississippi?  I remember a few years ago that they said the Big Muddy could change course if there was a major flood and leave New Orleans without a river.  Have they eliminated that scenario?
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

pineywoods

Yeah, all that water gotta go somewhere, and for the most part somewhere is down the mississippi to the gulf. Starting just downstream from St Louis, it is hemmed in on both sides by levees. Plus there are several large rivers that dump into the mississippi on the way. Tennessee, Arkansas, White, Red, Yazoo, plus numerous bayous and creeks. Just remember most of New Orleans is several feet below sea level.
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LOGDOG

Yep, tough call is right. I was reading about it this morning. You know there's going to be a sinking feeling in more than one person's stomach if they decide to blow that thing and let the water out. This has really been a bad year for weather related and nature induced disasters.

gunman63

granted  they flood 130,000 acres,  but the town of cario  , which  is  a concern and the  reason for  blowing it, and its 2300 residents,  mite not flood,  nothing saying both   mite  not  flood of nothings  done,  glad im on the  north end of the  river.

Magicman

Some similar decisions had to be made even in 1927.  Sometimes "some" has to be sacrificed to save "much".

Boils will also be a major concern further down river.  Hopefully there won't be a catastrophic failure and flood the Atchafalaya River basin.
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timerover51

Given that big sand boil that some of the news outlets have been reporting behind the levee at Cairo, I just hope and pray that we do not wind up with the worst of both outcomes,  the levee blown at Bird's Point and the levee at Cairo washing out because they waited so long.  As for you folks further downstream, I will keep you in my prayers.  This has been a very tough year for weather so far.

chain

The Birds Point floodway issue is still hotly contested, even the Missouri Govornor and our Congresswoman oppose the blowing of the emergency flood-relief levee. As of this time the Corps has moved their explosives barges  in from Ky.and  across the river to a point near the intended breach and are loading an apparatus with explosives and will await the final order for "fire-in-the-hole!".

We've been fighting this flood tooth and toenail for over a month now and losing. Another 4" rainfall today with another 6"-8" by tuesday morning. While re-re-running water furrows through the corn fields, the east end nearest the levee ran spring-clear water, coming up out of the ground as an artesian spring, we call it seep water; then, the water is running like a fresh spring creek down to the drainage. The west end of this field the dust was beginning to blow again from 20-30 mph winds.

Many opinions and arguments prevail each day over a man-made breaching and probable destroying of beautiful farms and ending the livelyhoods of dozens of wonderful farm families. Personally, I could not pull the trigger on Birds Point; my argument is that  Cairo, Illinois has had  nearly 75 years to improve their flood control from the disastrous '37 flood as most every town and city have done all up and down the river! Think about that, almost..seventy..five.. years ..to prepare!

ARKANSAWYER

  Well all I have is bad news.  The White River which is fed by Beaver Lake and Table Rock Lake are overflowing now into Bull Shoals Lake which is flooding now and having to dump into the White.  The Buffalo River is flooding into the White so it is all headed to the Mississippi along with the Arkansas River which is running levy to levy right now.  It is raining in Arkansas and has been for several days and tomorrow as well.  Them folks down stream better get their life jackets on.
ARKANSAWYER

Kansas

I would hate to be the Army Corps of Engineers trying to decide who to save. I remember in 93 when they stopped releasing water from a couple of resevoirs in Kansas due to flooding on the Missouri. The day came they had to finally lift the floodgates or risk the dams. Housing additions were flooded along with thousands of acres of farmland by Manhattan.  If they had been releasing all along it wouldn't have happened. That fall I took a flight from St Louis to Kansas City. You could see the brown from the plane where the Missouri had flooded so bad. You could see why they tried to hold off releasing. Sometimes there are no good decisions.

Magicman

Has anyone ever read the book Rising Tide? http://books.simonandschuster.com/Rising-Tide/John-M-Barry/9780684840024

I have.  It has never been a question of if.  It has always been when.  It may not be now or this time, but it will happen.  Man only has so much control of the Mississippi River.  We can levee it and try to control it, but under a given set of circumstances, she will contain more water than we can control.
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chain

Quote from: Magicman on May 01, 2011, 10:38:26 PM
Has anyone ever read the book Rising Tide? http://books.simonandschuster.com/Rising-Tide/John-M-Barry/9780684840024

I have.  It has never been a question of if.  It has always been when.  It may not be now or this time, but it will happen.  Man only has so much control of the Mississippi River.  We can levee it and try to control it, but under a given set of circumstances, she will contain more water than we can control.

I've heard about that book but I don't think I could read it just now. Everyone up here is on pins and needles as the rising river approaches the '37 flood level. Our new crest is supposed to be about two feet higher. After church today we ate lunch at our usual resturant, the waitresses and owners were sweeping seep water off the floor of the dining room! The water just kept bubbling up through small seams in the tile; the levee is only fifty yards away.

We're going to hang tough until tuesday, if the crest is raised we plan to check out of 'Dodge' for a few days! :o

ARKANSAWYER

  Talking to a guy at church last night and he was committing on all the rain and how bad the flooding was.  This gentleman who was in his 90's said it rained like this in these hills most of his life.  He said the problem was
(and it makes alot of sense) the fact that the rain got to the creeks and rivers faster.  He said in the old days you would get 3 or 4 days of rain and then the creek would come up.  Now you get a hard rain and a few hours later the creek is up and in a few hours it is on it's way back down.  We have drained everything like the roads, all the hard parking lots, and even our fields.  He said we are running the water off, like it standing in a field is a bad thing.  This is why wells are going dry as the water runs off instead of seeping in.  Our lakes are full up so this water has to go down hill from here.
ARKANSAWYER

Banjo picker

Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

fishpharmer

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Magicman

In many ways our practices are partially to blame.  Clear cutting, channeling, levees, damming, parking lots, etc. all contribute to faster runoff and subsequently higher river stages.  Of course all of these have also contributed to our present day way of life.  This should be no place or time for playing the blame game.

I hope that when all of this is finally behind up, we won't be saddled with "knee jerk" reactions and regulations.  We will always have to survive and live within the uncertain boundaries dictated by the weather.  The recent tornadoes refreshed our memories of that fact, and now this flood.
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pineywoods

Folks, this concerns a lot more than just cairo Ill. and/or some farms. The mississippi is hemmed in by levees from the boot heel of mo all the way to the gulf. A major breach in any of them could flood nearly a third of arkansas and half of louisiana. I was told yesterday that the la. hiway dept has started hauling dirt, sand, and clay to re-enforce the levees on the la. side. Then there's new orleans. There is a diversion gate in place a few miles upriver from the city. It dumps some of the mississippi river flow into lake pontchatrane. Water from that lake is what flooded new orleans during katrina. Of even more concern is the atchafalya basin. Here the mighty miss has been trying to change it's course for decades, taking a shortcut to the gulf and bypass new orleans.  That would just about wipe out the coastal marshes and leave the port of new orleans high and dry.
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Larry

Quote from: Magicman on May 01, 2011, 10:38:26 PM
Has anyone ever read the book Rising Tide?

That was a hard read for me...something you don't knock off in a evening or three.

Lots more to the book than just a flood.  On the recommended list for an understanding of the south and politics of the time..

Was grits ever mentioned? ??? ???
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

chain

Thirty or forty years ago their was a move on by landowners, some municpalities, and even State-run interest to build levees inside the primary levees of both  east- west sides of the Miss. River. Some of these were 'spur' levees connected to the main levee running perpendicular or a right angle a length down the river bank to throw the current of a flooding river back to the other side, other private levees often protected a section or two of farm land tieing it in on both ends to the primary levees. This has constricted the  flood plain of the area inside the levees.

Lots of problems with those levees as when they do fail they often damage land and river banks causing sanding and a virtual wasteland for years and years. The Corps of Engineers were lax on this matter for quite a long time yet, still, many of those private levees remain and contribute even to severe erosion problems at much lower flood stages, also contributing to higher and more dangerous flooding.

In '93 on the Missouri river, they found out the hard way when the great flood hit and tore up vast acreages of farmland and destroyed important river ecology. This flood even took out century old homes and cemeterys once thought to be far above the flood plain. Meanwhile, the rain continues to fall steadily here, will we be next?

ARKANSAWYER

  Well we got another 3 inches today but looks like it will clear out tonight.  We could use a little dry weather.
  I lived in Mississippi back in 73 when it flooded.  I remember riding to town in the car and the only dry land was around a house or two that were diked  and the road way which was built up about 6 ft over the rest of the land.  I used to mow snakes in the  yard till it got to stinking to bad and GrandMa made me stop. ;D  The catfish farm up the road flooded and I was catching cats out of the ditch in the front yard.  I would not wish that flood on anyone.
ARKANSAWYER

chain

Presently I have 6.7" in rain guage at 9:00 p.m. from beginning Saturday night. The latest news on Bird Point is the destruction of the levee will begin tonight, three seperate blasts, taking and estimated six hours to complete the breaching.

They added another 1.5 ft. on to our river crest this evening.

At least, the 'albatross' will be off our necks, here in Missouri.

sandhills

I heard on the news tonight they were going to blow it too, our thoughts and prayers go out to everyone involved.  I can't imagine the ramifications, of either choice really, doing it or not doing it, just glad it's not my call.

ARKANSAWYER

  The morning news just showed the explosion of the levy,  It is done!  There was a guy on there telling how this will destroy 130,000 acres of prime farm land.  What he does not understand it was flooding that made that farm land.  He said the land would be destroyed and unusable for years.  Depending on how long it takes the water to recedes may determine if they get a crop in this year or not.  But it is possible that the next few years crops will be the better for it.  There was a field here that got flooded in 2008 and when the water went down he 3 ft of new sand on his hay field.  He sold most of the sand for $7.50 a ton and disced his field and has one of the best bermuda grass hay fields in the area.
ARKANSAWYER

Cedarman

Arky, I'm with you.  I thought that was how river bottoms got to be fertile.  I suppose right where the rush of water is that there will be erosion, but as the water spreads out it slows down and drops its load.   They say it will be July before the water leaves the land.
Will the landowners be compensated for their losses and who will reimburse them?  Or is it just part of the deal with the devil that the levees protected them in the past and farmed at their own risk?
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

chain

The blast was heard and felt for at least 40 miles around and in five states! Disappointing to me as many people are happy about destroying the farms at Birds Point. It is like a victory of sorts, not that saving Cairo was the point, very disgusting. Turned political, socialist vs. people who try to make a living off the land.

This whole delta was once part of the Gulf of Mexico. Ice age and many, many other geological factors helped make the delta what it is and isn't. But, for millions of years the Ohio and Mississippi rivers changed courses, earthquakes change drainages, but back in those times, there were no man-made levees to constrict the channels and floods, the water spread out over a vast flood plain from near Cape Girardeau, Mo. to the Gulf.

If any of you caould find a copy of "Missouri Landscapes: aTour through Time" this volume could explain the many factors in the evolution of our present day geological and topographical make up in the mid -America region.

Larry

I was up in north Missouri during the flood of 93.  When a levy broke a lot of times it would cut a ditch 30 feet deep and 100 yards across.  The flood waters would drop up too 6 feet of sand on the ground.  Nothing at all like a natural flood.  Some of the flooded ground was ok if no current and was returned to productivity.

After the flood the FSA offered cost sharing to get rid of the sand.  I can't remember for sure but I think they would only try if the sand was less than 18" deep.  There still is a lot of ground up there that is only good for riding four wheelers on.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Faron

It's not impossible for  the river to cut a new channel down the floodway.
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Magicman

Quote from: chain on May 03, 2011, 12:26:49 PM
but back in those times, there were no man-made levees to constrict the channels and floods
Are you saying that you wish that there were no levees now?

We built artificial levees and channels and put the river where nature never intended for it to go.  When nature then flexes it's muscles, as it is doing now, there is not enough room inside of those levees for the water.  Something has gotta give....somewhere.  No body wants that "somewhere".

Just wait until the high water gets to South Louisiana.   :-\
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Magicman

Quote from: Faron on May 03, 2011, 01:22:44 PM
It's not impossible for  the river to cut a new channel down the floodway.

That could easily happen in the Atchafalaya River basin.
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chain

Reported shortly after noon today,  a Tow-boat barge has hit the I-1-55 bridge which spans the Mississippi river between Dyersburg, Tn. and Caruthersville, Mo., closing all traffic until inspection cleared. At least the second time of collison at this bridge last 6mos.. River pilots have a difficult turn, a treacherous stretch, partly because of a private levee is still standing with flood waters at the top and very near to the bridge, choking the channel width. Another issue very hard to understand, the Corps allowing private levees to affect river flow.

davch00

I live in Southeast Missouri and was for the Corps. blowing the levee. My 2 cents is if you willingly build a house and farm behind the levee or in that floodway you should be willing to accept that its going to flood. The floodway was being used for what it was built for. Why should people upstream have to pay because you living in a floodplain.

Banjo picker

I think I will throw my hat in with davch00....by the way davch00 what took you so long to post....Many of the folks that live below the dam at Pickwick have homes built on piling or stlits of some kind....I guess I will get flack for this view point , but it won't be the first time I have differed with my contemporiaries...One of Miss. ole time senators from years gone by either Stennis or Eastland said and I quote...."In case of rising water...seek higher ground"...   Living in Mississippi that is good advice since the high point is 806 feet...Tim
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

Magicman

Welcome davch00, to the Forestry Forum.   :)

We are still a week and a half away from our crest.  Folks are either getting up or getting out.
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chain

Quote from: davch00 on May 03, 2011, 05:29:10 PM
I live in Southeast Missouri and was for the Corps. blowing the levee. My 2 cents is if you willingly build a house and farm behind the levee or in that floodway you should be willing to accept that its going to flood. The floodway was being used for what it was built for. Why should people upstream have to pay because you living in a floodplain.

I see it differently also, why would Cairo keep building goverment housing knowing they are in a flood zone? Lets take the two or three hundred thousand victims of the Katrina hurrincane disaster in N.O. The government moved 150,000 to Houston, Tx. Most have stayed in Houston and out of the flood prone N.O. area. For some reason, most folks want to save 2500 people in harms way that could easily have been relocated to other areas.

Another question that is debated: in that most who favored the blasting of the flood relief levees are blaming the farmers and residents of Birds Point for just simply residing there. If this was a Federal Floodway, who the heck allowed them to settle and make farmsteads for more than fifty years ? Hypocrisy is no stranger to the Corps of Engineers, as I've pointed out previously, there are still several private levees inside the main levees causing problems in this flood.

By the way, the bridge and I-1-55 is open for traffic. MODOT reported the collison was a glancing blow to one of the pillars.

timerover51

Cairo, Illinois has been in its present location well over 160 years, and figured very prominently in the US Civil War as both an army and naval base.  As an historian, i would rather not see that much history arbitrarily washed away when another option is available.  As has been mentioned elsewhere on the forum and in this thread, part of the problem of the flooding has been the tampering that Man has done to the entire Mississippi-Missouri-Ohio River drainage basin.  Water that used to have time to sink into the ground is now runoff from cities and highways, areas that used to flood and absorb some of the floodwater are now protected by levees which pushes the flood water levels further downstream that much higher.

In my area of Illinois, Lake County, after the massive flooding in 1986, the municipalities and county finally bit the bullet, barred further development in the Des Plaines River flood plain, and then began to recreate the natural floodplain that once existed.  Right now, the Des Plaines Flood Plain project is working as designed, holding a lot of water that used to run off and then flood villages and towns further south in Lake and Cook County.

With respect to the area that is now flooded in Missouri, what the Federal Government needs to do is bite the bullet, ban anyone from moving back into the area, and purchase the property of those who were allowed to built in that area, when that should never have been allowed.  Then the Federal Government and the states on the Mississippi, Ohio, and Missouri Rivers have to sit down and permanently BAN any more development in the flood plain areas, and begin to restore the flood plain that used to exist.  If that is not done, then it will be only a matter of time until the next disastrous flood occurs.

chain

I certainly agree with you on the historical importance of Cairo. I'm some what of a civil war history buff myself. We had a friend that passed away a few years ago, his funeral was at the "Mighty Rivers Worship Center" in Cairo, I'm thinking my friend was buried at Mound City National. We did some living history things together, and participated in the C-span re-enactment of one of the Lincoln-Douglas Debates, in Anna-Jonesboro, Il.

Lots of history in that area, one of my favorites is Columbus-Belmont State park at Columbus Ky, a more beautiful bluff view of the great Mississippi river I've yet to see. The confederates fired cannons across the river in the Battle of Belmont, Mo. to disperse and thwart Gen. Grant's attack on the Rebel camp. Also at Columbus where Rebels strung the chain on pontoon boats across the river to 'catch' Union Gunboats coming down the river from Cairo.

sawman

  According to one of the Corps leaders that was on yesterday at some point, said that Cairo was not the only concern, but the increasing pressure on the entire floodway system throughout the region. There are several reservoirs that have been holding back there release amounts. They are now about to their limits, if not already there. This I can understand.
 We live about 25-30 miles NW of the birds point site, and our house shook and rattled when they
set off the first round.
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chain

Have been checking the National Weather Service river gage every four hours. So far, the 'blow-up' has not lowered the river one inch; in this area below Birds Point, the forecasted crest remains the same.

Reportedly, at Caruthersville, Mo. the crest will come 1/2 foot below the top of their seawall this Sunday. Schools are turning out today, evacuation will begin Friday. National guard working to support the seawall and patroling the Levee. A sea of seep water stands nearly continuously in the fields up and down the outer levee footings. The community is struggling with the realization of evacuation for days or possibly weeks, as well as many other towns up and down the river are facing the same dilemma.

Cedarman

If people want to live and farm in a flood plain it should be their business.  In turn, taxpayers should not have to pay for their losses.  They either buy insurance or self insure.  The Feds already tell us what to do and not to do in too many ways. 
There is a big difference from building subdivisions and shopping malls in a flood plain and farming in a flood plain. 
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

northwoods1

Quote from: Cedarman on May 04, 2011, 08:25:03 AM
If people want to live and farm in a flood plain it should be their business.  In turn, taxpayers should not have to pay for their losses.  They either buy insurance or self insure.  The Feds already tell us what to do and not to do in too many ways.  
There is a big difference from building subdivisions and shopping malls in a flood plain and farming in a flood plain.  

That is exactly the way I see it too... to take a quote from a book I really enjoyed, "you takes your chances and pays your dues"

Stan snider

"it will be only a matter of time until the next disastrous flood occurs."

The ones who built in this area KNEW that it was a floodway. If the risk was mangable to their operation, then it makes sense to build. Having improvements near a farming operation is a huge asset to productivity. If I was farming enough acres in there I would already be planning what would be built as soon as the levee was repaired. If we are going to ban any development we  would need to be prepared to drive a long ways to farm in the delta because it is so big. Hundred mile drives on a tractor?

It will be a lawyers heyday!

Uncle Sam will probably bail them out anyway,  well maybe not since the farm lobby is not near as strong as big business. 

chain

It's a done deal now. I'm hoping some of you will vacation near Cairo, Il. this summer and stroll down 'town' some evening to examine the history preserving efforts of some of the townspeople of boarded up and half burned-out buildings; yet, very neat housing projects..in the flood zone. [sarcasm] ;)

fishpharmer

Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
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chain

I think the last blasting of the Birds Point flood way will come this a.m. Those shock waves from the blasts travel a long ways through water; meanwhile as we continue to help the helpless Illinois folks, our river continues to rise rapidly. Banks, schools, most everything closing up today. Reportedly no motel rooms in 100 miles.

I hope all the political bantering and baffoonery, related to this flood of the century, was worth it. But look out below, folks in Mississippi, Louisana, Arkansas..may God Bless and keep you from harm in this calamity!

Tom

My little cousin wrote this note today in our family missive.

QuoteThe Mississippi (four crooked letters, total) is due to crest in Baton Rouge at 46.5 feet on May 16, which will be a new record. Allegedly the levees are designed to hold 48 feet in Baton Rouge. I am sure they (the gumint) will open both the Morganza Floodway, and the Bonnet Carre Spillway, to take the pressure off. It will be interesting to see. The last time they opened the Morganza Floodway they almost inadvertently changed (permanently) the course of the Mississippi. Apparently all the lingering cold weather in the northern half of the US is causing the stormy weather in the south, and too much rain in the north. Spring rains plus snow melt gives us plenty of water down here. I recall once back in the mid 1980's we had ice floes in the Mississippi all the way to New Orleans. Our water supply temperature to the plant was running just two degrees F above freezing. Speaking of cold weather, Baton Rouge set a new low temperature record for May 4th at 46 degree F. The old record of 47 degrees was in 1950.

doctorb

I try not to shoot off my mouth here when I don't know what I don't know, but I am interested, mesmerized and astonished at all of this, so I might be way off base.  It's a big DanG river and, given enough water, it's gonna go wherever it wants.  

When it floods, peoples lives, towns, homes and farms are washed away.  Yet we give them the opportunity to buy flood insurance.  As far as I know, the US government is the only entity that sells flood insurance.  So when disasters happen, us taxpayers foot the bill.

That makes no sense to me at all.  If you want the risk of living there, fine.  I am sure it's great for all but 2 out of every 100 years.  But for those two, and we're having one of them this year, we have this "what were we thinking?" moment.  Why don't we require those that live there to:  (in no particular order)
1.  Do so at their own risk
2.  Only construct homes and buildings that are raised and can withstand greater than a 100 year flood.
3.  Only offer insurance to those homeowners that comply with number 2.
4.  Live outside the flood plain.

It's like New Orleans.  It was gonna happen, and it will happen again in the future.  I do feel very sorry for all the people who are trying their best to live through this.  But I think that there will come a time that you've just got to say, "Nope, you can't live there."
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

rbhunter

I can see both sides of the debate. I agree that one should accept the risk if they are to build or farm in a flood plain. But what makes the best use of the food plain? Is it a wise use of the flood plain to build residential areas in the flood plain,  farm in the flood plain, or just leave the flood plain natural? The area being flooded this time is over 200 hundred square miles but I am sure that it is just a small percentage of the area being farmed accross the United States that is in the flood plain. There are many residential areas in flood plains protected by levies, my parents live in the Kansas River Valley in Topeka and were prepared to evacuate quickly if needed back in 1993.

"Said the robin to the sparrow, I wonder why it must be, these anxious human beings rush around and worry so?"
"Said the sparrow to the robin, Friend I think it must be, they have no heavenly father, such as cares for you and me."
author unknown. Used to hang above parents fireplace.

Tom

What is a flood plain?  While most people in Florida have concerns about living in a swamp, most live in a flood plain.  Entire towns and counties are in Flood Plains.  DanG and his co-horts in the panhandle on the Gulf are in our mountains at 300 feet.

Orlando (Disney World), the destination of the USA, is in a swamp.  The Tampa/St. Petersburg metroplex is not much above sea level and is the retirement mecca for Canada.  Miami is a sand ridge between the Atlantic and the Great Swamp of the Everglades. The whole middle of the southern portion of the State is Lake Okeechobee.   The St. Johns River runs from Indian River County in the South to Jacksonville in the North East and drops less than 30 feet in over 300 miles.

If we moved from the flood plane, the only inhabited place would be a few acres north of Tallahassee.  :D

I agree that there is some personal responsibility to be taken by people who build in the sand dunes of the Gulf or Atlantic, or on a slab in one of the many swamps, but there are reasons that people live in some dangerous or intimidating geography and their willingness benefits them and us as well.  I think that's what makes it hard to write someone off because a natural disaster that wouldn't bother us, wiped them out. 

Don_Papenburg

My opinion is that after this flood is over  all the levies should have the tops shaved back to one half their size.   That way all the flood plains along the river takes on some water . Thus reducing the risk to one area , causing larger devistating floods to one larger area because of levie blasting .This disaster in southern Mo. will not dry out for a couple of months now .  If every area along the river took some of the flood stage water they would be dryed out in less than a month .    No sand bagging should be allowed to increase the levie hight.   
Frick saw mill  '58   820 John Deere power. Diamond T trucks

Just Me

Quote from: chain on May 04, 2011, 09:32:18 AM
It's a done deal now. I'm hoping some of you will vacation near Cairo, Il. this summer and stroll down 'town' some evening to examine the history preserving efforts of some of the townspeople of boarded up and half burned-out buildings; yet, very neat housing projects..in the flood zone. [sarcasm] ;)

I was in Cairo last year and to tell the truth it reminded me of a mini Detroit. Can't see losing 130,000 acres of farmland owned by hardworking farm families over that.

Now if we could just get a flood up here in Michigan to flood Detroit and get that money pit off of us taxpayers that actually work.

My family farms, and as farmers they are so closely tied to the land that I can not imagine the thoughts going through these families minds, looking at all of their hard work erased. I feel for everyone that will be affected, but I guess I am a bit biased toward farmers. Bad deal no matter which direction you look at it from.

ARKANSAWYER

  I live in the hills of the Ozarks.  Down in the creek and river bottoms are flat places that the Indians used to camp and where early white settlers farmed.  Back in the 70's people started building homes down there on the scenic rivers bottoms.  Thinking the whole time how these stupid southerners were up on the side of the hill living on rocks.  Then the river floods as it does every few years and they want us to pay for their damage.  NOT!  You should not build on places that are prone to flood or fall down or in harms way.
  That is good farm land and had the levee failed on it's own it is a different story then the GOV blowing it to save somewhere else.  Now I understand the need to do it and the farmers should be paid for their loss crops which will be less then the loss of Cario.  It is good farm land and should remain farmland.  Since white men have been farming it, it has flooded.  That is what made it good farm land.
  We have drained the land and now when it drains to fast it causes problems.  I would guess it is to late to put the genie back into the bottle.  So lets just take some farmland away from farmers and put in a golf course with high dollar homes all around it and we will see the GOV protect them.
ARKANSAWYER

LOGDOG

That's funny Arky ... you hit the nail on the head. My wife and I have looked at quite a bit of land up your direction to build a cabin on. The land on some of these rivers and streams is really priced inexpensively. Very pretty, crystal clear or aqua green streams .... anywhere else those lots would be high, high, high ...$$$$$. My wife says, "Why do you think they're so cheap?". I tell her, "Look closely. See that steep slope on the other side of the creek/river? That means that when the river swells, and it will, the water isn't going that direction .... it's coming onto this low, flat lot that borders it."  ::) Great place to maybe pull your RV to when it's dry, not a great place to build a cabin or home on.

One thing I learned, a bit late mind you, is that the best time to look at buying a piece of property in the South is when it's raining and right after it's rained a gully washer. See how and where the water goes.

Interesting side comment ... my wife is in banking. As some of you may know, they're getting concerned about this water coming down the Mississippi into LA. Apparently when you buy flood insurance there's a waiting period on the policy if you buy it as a stand alone policy. However, if you buy the policy as part of a "financial transaction", namely you're borrowing money on the property and it requires flood insurance, there's NO waiting period. So in the last week, people have been trying to do cash out borrowing on their properties and take out the flood insurance. The bank has been telling them "Sorry". People can be crafty. Gotta give it to the bank for not participating in their attempt to defraud the insurance companies.

Raider Bill

Quote from: Tom on May 05, 2011, 10:17:03 PM
What is a flood plain?  While most people in Florida have concerns about living in a swamp, most live in a flood plain.  Entire towns and counties are in Flood Plains.  DanG and his co-horts in the panhandle on the Gulf are in our mountains at 300 feet.

Orlando (Disney World), the destination of the USA, is in a swamp.  The Tampa/St. Petersburg metroplex is not much above sea level and is the retirement mecca for Canada.  Miami is a sand ridge between the Atlantic and the Great Swamp of the Everglades. The whole middle of the southern portion of the State is Lake Okeechobee.   The St. Johns River runs from Indian River County in the South to Jacksonville in the North East and drops less than 30 feet in over 300 miles.

If we moved from the flood plane, the only inhabited place would be a few acres north of Tallahassee.  :D

I agree that there is some personal responsibility to be taken by people who build in the sand dunes of the Gulf or Atlantic, or on a slab in one of the many swamps, but there are reasons that people live in some dangerous or intimidating geography and their willingness benefits them and us as well.  I think that's what makes it hard to write someone off because a natural disaster that wouldn't bother us, wiped them out. 

I live at about the highest point of the Tampa St Pete area at 48 ft above sea level. On the Ridge actually.
Didn't know Dang had mountain property over there on the panhandle. :D
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

LOGDOG


DanG

I'm right near where Fla, Ga, and Ala all come together, in the Florida Mountains. :D  I'm near the Apalachicola River, and if it gets to 228 feet above flood stage, I'm in trouble.  I'm  at 302 feet.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

LOGDOG

Wow, you're higher than we are over here in the NW corner of LA Dang. A good bit higher too. We're at 198 on the highest point of our property.

Magicman

DanG is in the "nosebleed" section.  My Cabin is at 298'.
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It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

jim king

QuoteI'm right near where Fla, Ga, and Ala all come together, in the Florida Mountains.   I'm near the Apalachicola River, and if it gets to 228 feet above flood stage, I'm in trouble.  I'm  at 302 feet.

Are you saying that the river will peak at 228 feet above the normal levels ????? ???  We here in the upper Amazon 2500 miles from the ocean are also 300 feet above sea level.

Magicman

The Mississippi River backwater closed Highway 61 between Port Gibson and Vicksburg last night.  That is a 4 lane major highway.  The river is rising a foot a day.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Kansas

Went to a farming site this morning and it was mentioned that starting Monday, they expect 200 miles of the Miss will be closed to barge traffic. The reason they mentioned it is disrupting barge traffic to the port on grain. There is a lot of freight that goes both ways on that river. I never been on a barge, but don't think I would want to be on one right now.

Bro. Noble

Well,  I saw on TV that the people down the river can rest assured that the best engineers on earth are monitering the situation.

I about choked remembering an interview on a local station with a Corps-of-engineers rep. concerning the flooding in Branson, MO.
The problem was caused by the corps dumping record amounts of water out of the upstream dam, flooding the town.  The rep was asked why they didn't let some of the water out of the lake when it was forcast that the area would get a foot or more of rain (we got about 2 feet).  The response was that the Corps does not make decisions based on forcasts ::)  Multiply this by every stream and dam in the midwest and it's easy to see why we have record flooding.

Don't get me started on the Corps-of-engineers-------I ain't their biggest fan >:(
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Norm

Every spring we get rain sometimes way too much and the corps reservoirs fill up and then they release it to flood downstream. I have no idea why these are not drawn down over the winter to handle this. The question was asked and their response was about what Noble heard.

Count me down as another that thinks they could go away and we'd be better off without them.

chain

Had a chance to travel across the Mississippi river bridge on I-1-55 between Caruthersville, Mo and Dyresburg, Tn. today.

Angry waters! Is best how to describe the now receding flood. Irrigation stuctures over-turned, inner levees breeched and flood waters still boiling channels out through farm lands and trees, unabated. Farmsteads by the dozens idled, their equipment lined up above any raised area and small levees and sandbags still protect their personal homes and buildings.

Just in the middle of the bridge and over the channel, the river is still roiling and rolling, the Native Americans didn't call it "Father of Waters" for nothing! Lots of heartbreak for lots of folks.

I thought of one thing, as I've felt sort of sorry myself for things we've lost that at least, could be replaced..." I once complained for having no shoes to wear..until I met a man with no feet."

Those inner levees protected many farmers for years and years but once they are breeched...it's payback time...'ol man River's turn now.

Coon

There is a very similar situation to that of the Mississippi River in Manitoba.  The Assiniboine River just outside Brandon, Manitoba is flooding out.  They are breachin the river sometime tomorrow to save a bunch of homes and such and as well a few are in jepoardy of being lost to do this breaching.

Here's some more info on it.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2011/05/11/mb-controlled-spill-assiniboine-worries-flood-manitoba.html
Norwood Lumbermate 2000 w/Kohler,
Husqvarna, Stihl and, Jonsereds Saws

metalspinner

With the opening of the Morganza Spillway, my home town should be under water in a couple of days. :(

I remember growing up in Morgan City and listening to Mom and Dad talk about the new flood wall built downtown and how that was supposed to protect us.  Standing on top of a 30 foot wall doesn't make one feel as secure as you might think. ::)

Our neighborhood, Lakeside subdivision, is protected on three sides by levees.  The back side is a large lake.  The homeowners on the lake end didn't want their view of the lake obstructed by a seawall, so it was never built.

Some people we know are going to "ride it out." I told them they better tie off their boat to their front porch. ::)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_City,_Louisiana

http://www.charter.net/video/play/534558/channels/cnn/us
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Tom

My little cousin live is Baton Rouge.  He rented a Cessna 172 yesterday and took some pictures.  Here is a shot of the Marganza Spillway from 1500 feet with 15 gates open.





He wrote:
I took a few photos of the Morganza Spillway Structure yesterday afternoon from 1500 feet. The first one shows the gates of the spillway from the River side, so you can see all the flooded land in the Atchafalaya Spillway in the background. The second one shows the gates and structure from the Spillway side, and in the background is the Mississippi wandering all over the place. The thin white line in the water from upper left to mid right is the low height levee that holds back the Mississippi in less that flood conditions. You can see it has been topped in many places, and the white line is actually thousands of sandbags intended (I guess) to keep the levee from eroding. There are 15 gates open, and that may be all that are needed.

pineywoods

Most of the propaganda we get says this diversion of the river is to save the cities of Baton Rouge and New Orleans. That's just the tip of the iceberg. What isn't mentioned is all the industry that lines the banks from Baton Rouge to New Orleans. Every kind of chemical plant and refinery you can think of is there, making up one of the largest petro-chemical complexes in the country. Also, 2 good sized gas fired power plants and 2  nuclear power plants, all right behind levees that may not be adequate. Glad i live way in the north end of the state. There's another nuke plant just south of Vicksburg, but it sits on a bluff and should be safe.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men


WH_Conley

Best of luck to the guy. So many little things that could go wrong.
Bill

Magicman

I've seen it done successfully before on the Pearl River in Monticello in 1979.  I hope that holds for him.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Tom

"That is impressive, and an all out effort.  I hope it works.

I also wonder what kind of damage is added to the flooded homes by the wakes of the boats.

Magicman

Tom, I wondered about that too.  Here it is illegal to cause a wake in flooded areas.  There, it's obvious that they don't care.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

LOGDOG

Yep ... The wake factor went through my mind too. I mean here we all are thinking about that while we're high and dry and you'd think those guys would have it immediately on their mind ....especially rolling up on that levy.

Magicman

The majority of the boats that are on the water here are law enforcement personnel.  Everyone else has to have a very valid reason for being on the water.  They will also haul you in for even walking on a levee.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

ScottAR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgKsehkcIF8   Believe this to be the original... 
The comments say they were successful. 
Scott
"There is much that I need to do, even more that I want to do, and even less that I can do."
[Magicman]

LOGDOG

Yep, this video shows before, during, and after the water went down. Amazing. Even if it cost him several thousand dollars to get a dozer and/or track hoe in there to build the levy and the same to put it back, that's still money well spent. Heck of a lot cheaper than rebuilding that spread he's got there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lvb6QkO31g&feature=relmfu

pineywoods

Neighbors helping neighbors...makes life worthwhile.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Tom

it's cheap until he finds out that he cut the optical fiber link to his end of the State and the sewage line, the water line, the gas line, the electricity cable and buried a nest of the Lesser Mississippi mongoose. :D

pigman

Quoteit's cheap until he finds out that he............. buried a nest of the Lesser Mississippi mongoose.
The rest of the stuff he cut would be no trouble to replace, but disturbing the nest of the Lesser Mississippi mongoose would cause a forty year prison sentence and a million dollar fine. ;)
Things turn out best for people who make the best of how things turn out.

WDH

No!  Don't say it!  Surely he did not bury the nest of the Lesser Mississippi Mongoose?  Now the Society for the Friends of the Lesser Mississippi Mongoose will get involved  :).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

LOGDOG

What the heck is a Lesser Mississippi Mongoose?  ???

Ianab

Quote from: LOGDOG on May 23, 2011, 08:55:22 PM
What the heck is a Lesser Mississippi Mongoose?  ???

Doesn't matter any more - they are all extinct. Buried by moat builders mostly   :D
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

LOGDOG


Banjo picker

Thanks for the video there Logdog.   I was wondering if it would hold...it looked like it got pretty close to the top....I hate it about the Mongoose though...Tim
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

WDH

Yes, mongooses come and go, but it was sad about the Lesser.  More is not better, sometimes Lesser, at least as it relates to rare mongooses in Mississippi and fertilizer:).  The Mississippi cobra went extinct in the last Great Flood, so the Lesser's number was already up, probably.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Faron

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.  Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. - Ben Franklin

trapper

Dont laugh.  I just heard a desert lizard  is being classified endangered  and is stoping drilling for oil in texas.
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LOGDOG

Trust me, I ain't laughing about that desert sand lizard. Some of my Oil and Gas Limited Partnerships are in the Permian Basin. Smack dab in the middle of the issue. I'm hoping it doesn't hold things up.

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