Edging off sap wood rate question

[Jim_Rogers]

Recently I did a "road job" where I was cutting a lot of cherry for flooring and cabinet stock for this customer's new house.
He wanted me to trim off as much sap wood as I could from his outer "jacket" boards from his logs.
I could see after a while how much my bdft total was going down due to trimming off the sap wood.

So, here's my question: "Do you charge a higher rate per bdft for milling jobs when trimming off sap woods?"

I considering changing my rate sheet to reflect trimming off sap wood so that I get what I'm due for cutting a 10" wide board and then reducing it to 8" or less for heartwood only.

Now this applies to only custom sawing by the bdft. I do understand that I can charge by the hour, but in my business I have chosen to saw by the bdft on new lumber and by the hour when re-sawing salvage stuff, and other weird custom sawing jobs.

Any help is appreciated.

Jim Rogers
Jim Rogers Timber Designs
Jim Rogers Sawmill
117-R Jewett Street
Georgetown, MA 01833-1833
800-422-6250
www.jrsawmill.com

[iain]

If i have to cut it i bill it

BUT i do do "favours" ;)

you must be saving them a penny or two in there not having to edge


iain

[Duncan]

I started off charging by the the foot but went to an hourly rate after several of the nightmare customers.  By doing this I have worked the bill out backwards to 10-50 cents a foot because of difficulties in the site, or vice versa the dream customer that actually has the logs decked ect.  For me it works out great because I leave all of my customers happy and not really caring if they have an offbearer or if the customer is not in good enough health to keep up.

Therefore a customer can get a great deal at 10 cents a foot if they have the logs decked and can offbear or they get charged accordingly for difficult work area's or not offbearing.  I have an older gentlemen that is a repeat customer that is a nightmare if you are sawing by the foot.  But he can afford to pay and is glad to pay for the complete package.

Strangely, he never seems to actually use any of the lumber and is one of those hoarders that have stacks and stacks that are just sitting around making him happy when he looks at it.

[Tom]

One reason I lean away from hourly charges is that a 6 hour job kills a day.  If I only grossed 10 cents a BF because the guy had good help and his logs in order,  I might as well have stayed home. 

I have had customers ask me to do what has happened to Jim.  If it is not a big job, I may do it as a "favor" like Ian suggests.  But, I also deal with situations like this  by slabbing to the heart.  Three cuts and I start making boards.  When they have to deal with the weight of the slabs and complain about wasting wood, I explain the economics to them from my perspective.

You may be surprised at how creative some of these guys are.  They go back through the slab pile after you are through and get their free wood out.  That's why I try to give them free wood up front.  If I'm bending over backwards to make them happy, sometimes they will back off on stepping on my neck.

[Larry]

One of the pitfalls of sawing by the board foot.  Similar to when ya get stuck sawing a bunch of short and small diameter logs...production drops tremendously.

We saw a lot of walnut in this area and have the same problem...nobody wants sapwood.  Small logs I go straight to the cant...same as Tom.  Big logs I'll take a heavy slab and one flitch off the good sides.

[Captain]

I cut by log volume, not BF sawn... AND I don't deduct for degrade.  But then my recovery overrun is not usually as good as you band mill folks.


It works for me....

Captain

[Fla._Deadheader]

I saw it, I charge for it. He wants them edged again, I call them Stickers. Still charge for them.  ;D ;D

[Gilman]

With unreasonable customers I'll be nice to them and cut their rejects into nice 4' bunk material for them.   ;D

With good customers I'll take a trim cut off a really knotty face and then cut a thick slab for bunk material at no charge.

[Jim_Rogers]

When I cut blocking for them, then it's lumber produced. My rates are for lumber produced, any lumber, regardless of quality. If they throw it in the slab pile I don't count it, but if they put it in the "save" pile it gets counted.
Everything I cut goes in the save pile....
I have a line on my rate sheet for cutting stickers.
I keep track of them and charge extra per bdft for cutting them if they have asked me to cut stickers.

Thanks for all your comments.

Jim Rogers

[FeltzE]

Ahhhhhh,,, the great billing question.... :'( :D


I normally charge by the board foot produced for larger jobs, other special jobs, small logs, and poor yield stuff  go hourly that way neither the customer or the sawyer (me) gets a bum deal. I look at the job and quote it prior to doing it. That way I can evaluate what the customer wants and offer him options. Jobs on site requireing handling equipment or extra help get billed accordingly

Eric

[Part_Timer]

I saw in another link where Captain had his billing sheet and liked it .  I sorta combined mine with his.  I charge by log scale now. At the end of the job if there is a pile of slabs that are fire wood that the customer doesn't want I give them a price deduct on the bill and remove it for them. If they keep it I charge for it.  When you buy a log you buy by scale why wouldn't you cut by scale.

If the customer is a nice guy helps out and has everything piled then I give a price discount on the bill and show it on the bottom line.

I've had them ask about cutting that junk log over there while we're cutting.  If they are a good customer then I show it as cut for free.

This way you reward good customers and you can bill for your headache with the not so good ones.

I liked your list of questions in the post on Jeffs mill I'm gona add a couple of items to my list.  My cut sheet is kinda Ala cart.  I go through it with them and just check off the services they want.  I total it up and we both sign it, then I saw.

Tom

[Jim_Rogers]

Tom/Part_Timer:
The reason that I charge by lumber produced is that with a bandsaw mill you can have an overrun as high as 30% over log scale.

If my machine and my skill are capable of increasing yield by 30% over log scale than I think I should be paid for that.

Just think if you could make 30% more on each job you do, how much more would you make at the end of say a week, a month, a year?
I'm not going to give all that away.

Jim Rogers

[ronwood]

Jim,

If you would use the International Scale would that not get you pretty close. Doyle would not work on the smaller logs.

Ron

[Part_Timer]

    Jim I understand about the over run on a band mill. I'm running about 5-10 percent over with the microkerf on the swinger. 
     You asked how we charge when trimming off the sap wood and that is how I charge.  If I'm cutting walnut and there is 2-3" of sap around it I still have to cut it off and should be payed.   Takes just as much gas/sharpening blades to cut sap as it takes to cut the good stuff.  Even if you are getting 30% over on some logs that won't make up the differance if the log has 2" on a side of sap wood.

That is why I charge on scale when they don't want any sap. ;)

[Jim_Rogers]

Part_Timer;
I understand now what you mean.
Thanks

ronwood:
I use the International scale and when I've checked log scale vs. lumber productions I have gotten 30% overruns before.

Jim Rogers

[ronwood]

Jim,

Do you get 30% overrun cutting 4/4 or combination of beams and smaller stock? I was wondering if the overrun varies due to type of stock being cut since you have less kerf loss. Seems to me it would not make a big difference on a bandsaw.

Ron

[Jim_Rogers]

ronwood:
I haven't checked my overrun lately.
Or when doing beams and boards.
So, I'm sorry I can't give you an honest answer.
Jim Rogers

[FeltzE]

I found that cutting grade logs with the band mill runs well over scale we can often cut on the inch mark running a board foot of billable lumber with no kerf loss (billable) as the kerf of the band is only 1/16 inch the 15/16 board is fine for most construction requirements.

Cutting TYPICAL customer logs is an educational process for the owner,

   What is a saw log?
   What kind of lumber to cut from various logs?
   What not to cut

Etc.

Ideally I would think that running the sawmill should produce a uniform $/hour rate in the end. If the customer wants difficult logs cut, hourly may be appropriate keeping the sawyer from loosing his shirt, clean straight sawlogs of good diameter cut by the board foot will yield better per hour profits for the sawyer, while not penalizing the owner.

It's an easy sell to cut by the board foot to a customer, cutting by log tally is fine... the most important thing is to give the customer a quality product for a fair price and you will never go wrong...   I always run my decision process around and the final call for me is each job is a little different there is no true single answer.


Eric