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Storing timber for future use

Started by REGULAR GUY, February 14, 2010, 12:34:00 AM

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REGULAR GUY

Howdy all,

Hope I'm in the right spot. First off I'd like to say that ya'll are incredible with the knowledge ya'll got and incredible the way ya share it. Welp, here goes, gonna get my feet wet and ask a question!!! I'm in the western Sierra-Nevada foothills, about 3600' elevation. Got a neighbor that wants 4 or 5 Ponderosa Pines down and their mine for doin it. I don't have no use for them right away, so should I buck them up and leave them set (off the ground and shaded) for a coupla months, mill them and air dry them (I got no kiln), if I mill them, should I mill oversize for shrinkage or is there another option? He wants them down soon so I gotta act.        Also, I'm hand splittin Incense Cedar with a 16 lb. sledge and 5 lb. wedges, the logs are 8' and 10' long and from about 8'' to 24'' in diameter, is it better to split directly after fellin or should I leave the log set for a spell to cure. Ain't never split a cured log, don't know how it'll "act"!!!! Got ALOT to split, is there a gadget (other than modifying a smaller wood splitter) that would work?             Thanks a bunch ,  Appreciate the help!!        Regular Guy


SwampDonkey

Should mill them pine as soon as possible after you cut'm. If it's cold for a couple months then fine, but might get a little checking on the ends. As for the splitting, split them green. A whole lot easier. The Wood Handbook says it's easier again when dried beyond 15 %. From 12-10 % MC they show 36 f-lbs/in2 easier for Ponderosa. Not really practical in your application where yours is going to be over 30 % MC in the heartwood and over 130% in the sapwood when fresh cut. And the industry only kilns to 19 % MC.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

ErikC

  Are you splitting fence posts with the cedar? I have never cut them green, we always used a cedar snag when we wanted some. If you have to carry them far, they will be heavy green. I use a chainsaw more and a hammer and wedges less, they come out more accurate but still have the rustic look. Just cut freehand about 1/2 way then a few whacks with a maul or axe. I also I take a 6' digging bar with a spade end to pop apart the big chucks when they hang up from being a little stringyAre you leaving the sap or splitting it off?  We always take it off, they last way longer.  I bet they will split easy green, if you can drive right to them I would try it that way.
  Pine will not keep bright in warm weather but you might get away with a couple of months now. I have let it set way longer than that with no trouble sometimes, but it isn't likely. Mostly it's just bluing for the first several months, so if that isn't a problem you have a little more time on your hands. It will be stained but still plenty sound. On the east coast they have this thing called humidity ???, and everything rots but it ain't much of a problem here. 7-10% for months on end, put it in a kiln to rehydrate :D
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

Brucer

I sawed a bunch of Ponderosa Pine for a guy about 4 years ago. They were big logs ... 28" to 36" diameter, 12' to 20' long. He didn't know what he wanted to do with them, so he had me cant them up with plenty of wane and then saw out the heart center out (about 1" to either side of the pith). That let him pile the cants with "stickers" and kept them from cracking as they dried. The stickers were 4x4's to make it easy to pick out individual layers with the loader.

The two biggest timbers were 14" x 20" x 20'. One year later a customer came by wanting four 5" x 18" x 18'. We cut them to length first and I measured the moisture content in the cut. 10% at the surface, 18% at 1" in from the surface, 25% at 2" in from the surface. Still green inside.

They had some blue stain but no sign of decay.



Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

SwampDonkey

Got tied up with the pine, forgot your splitting cedar, not pine. Incense-cedar is quite wet when green compared the red and white cedar heartwood but low shrinkage, similar to the other cedars. 


When white cedar is dry and knot free it actually splits fairly easy. With knots it can fracture at the knots.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

REGULAR GUY

Thanks all very much,
     I'm lousy with a computer and my wife sometimes has little patience helping me learn so I apologize if I don't do things right.
SwampDonkey.....
     Yea,  knot free it's pretty posts and split rails and then it's tricky as all get out on the upper part of the tree  with zillions of knots.
ErikC,
     Yep, posts and  10' rails, thats what he wants, if I get the job! Great idea on the chainsaw, long as it's rustic. Don't know about the sap/bark yet, gotta sell the job first. Sure looks pretty with the bark on till it falls off but as you said about the life of it. There ain't enough snags  around, he's got alot of fence he wants done, they sure split pretty green though.  On the Pine, how come they blue and what is it?
Brucer,
      Those were good size logs. I'm green myself, don't quite got ya on the cants. Do ya mean to cut four cants around the heart center?  When ya stacked and stickered them did he keep the wind off them or does that matter with Pine, or just protect from direct sun?
                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks for the help ya'll.  I sure do appreciate it!  One more question for now, IF this is the right place. Where/how do I find out how to mill the different species for the right boards , select etc,. instead of just setting a log on and  cutting cants and then 1" boards, 2"x4", 4"x4",  etc.?

       This computer drives me nuts, but man alive the information!!!!!!!!!!!

Regular Guy

Brucer

When you mount your log, make sure the pith is level end to end. Square up the log, but leave lots of wane. That's your cant. It's got flat surfaces for stacking but lots of flexibility for cutting the final product.

Once you've got your cant, take two passes through it, one about 1" above the pith and one about 1" below. Now you've got two roughly rectangular cants that are FOHC (free of heart center) plus a 2 x whatever that contains the center of the log.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

sigidi

Regular Guy first of all Welcome to the best place for info regarding all things 'Foresty'  8)

Here in Aus (and form what has been said in this thread) we get the same kind of bluestain occurring on our softwoods, it is a fungus, it doesn't effect the strength of the timber, just the appearance and some of our timber stains right through the whole board, so you can't just it thick and 'dress out' the stain. We have a product here which you can spray on the timber, fresh sawn to inhibit the blue stain, dunno if you guys have similar stuff over there? If you don't ours wouldn't be much help as it is classed 'dangerous goods' so it can't be posted.
Always willing to help - Allan

SwampDonkey

Also a little bug called ambrosia, but not always a bug, will help penetrate that stain. They mostly go in the sapwood as that's the biggest bang for the buck to get nourishment (stored starches and sugars). I have some white pine here and where ever the ambrosia went in the sapwood the fungus followed.



1/8" to 1/4" long ;)




:-X :-X :-X >:( >:( >:(

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

bandmiller2

Guy,its seldom in this trade that everything works out just right always tradeoffs and losses.Get the pine, block it off the ground well, after sitting a wile the bark will loosen then you peel it off.If you going to use it for outbuildings[hopefully a mill building]blue stain means didly.Pine logs kept with the bark off will hold quite a wile depending on your climate and the wood is plenty good for construction lumber.  Worst outcome down the road you cut it up for firewood.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

ErikC

 Blue stain is a fungi that lives on the sap nutrients, I have heard it but can't remember the actual name. It will always stain the sap wood first, sometimes never the heart. It won't be able to live once the wood has dried because there is no food source. There is no structural effect on the wood, and it isn't a health concern, like mold can be.
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

REGULAR GUY

Thanks again guys, I feel myself gettin more confident with your help! I got orders to "rephrase" the "patience" comment thing I made, she said it makes her sound.........Ya'll know what she means. Actually I got the very best wife on the planet! I done some miiiling for my own out buildings. horse corral, hay shed, tack shed etc., I milled all the structual, flooring, siding etc., but I'd like to get more intelligent about it cuz some of the neighbors are asking for me to harvest and mill some of their trees and I want to give them the best job possible that will hold up the way it should. Things I done for myself, I done in a real rustic look, but now things are different. Are there any charts or whatever available for milling for grade, structural etc. ?  This is gettin addicting, I seen some of ya'lls pictures on turning, furniture, shingles and other wood products and it's amazing . hope I'll be there someday. She's goin to work so she's gotta turn this computer off! Thanks again, I'll be back Saturday!!!


     Regular Guy

   

Brucer

Quote from: sigidi on February 15, 2010, 05:25:16 AM
We have a product here which you can spray on the timber, fresh sawn to inhibit the blue stain ...

In these parts they just label the blue-stained stuff "denim wood" and mark it up 50% ;D.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

SwampDonkey

And over here they make kindling from it for bonfires.  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Quote from: ErikC on February 15, 2010, 01:55:07 PM
  it isn't a health concern, like mold can be.

I'm not so sure of that, it depends. My experience with stain in white pine is it's terribly musty smelling and sometimes a secondary fungus comes in with white hyphae on the surface. I wouldn't want to be around it when planing it.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

ErikC

 As far as I know the white mold is not related. They can both be found at the same time though. But I have seen the white stuff where there was no stain, and vice-versa. Also the white stuff only comes in-between boards, not through-out. I think the health concern comment was something I read in a WWPA book a year or two ago. :-\
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

REGULAR GUY

Thanks for all the replies,
That 2" board cut around the pith, is it good for anything? I'm curious why cut it out? Does that also apply to Oak? I'm gonna guess no ?!!?
Thanks again,
Regular Guy

Ianab

QuoteThat 2" board cut around the pith, is it good for anything?

Depends on the log and the species. You may cut it a bit bigger and get a usefull post. It's likely to check in some way, but should stay intact.  It's also going to be full of knots from small branches that self pruned as the tree grew, so it's low quality wood anyway.

Otherwise it's firewood.

If you cut boards that include that pith they are almost certain to split as the board dries, so edge them off at the sawing time and save the hassle later.

Construction grade pine, or a heart centrered beam or post is the only thing that I would leave the pith in a board, and that would be a pretty crappy board.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

ErikC

  I just cut it when I'm doing dimensional lumber, and try to get it all in one board. Sometimes they don't show much reaction, sometimes they twist or warp until they're unusable. They can always be cut down into rafter blocking, or something of the sort. Might as well cut a junky one 16" if you can. Keep it out of the pile you want to be high quality, and you will probably find a use for it. BTW, most pressure treated posts and a lot of the 2x4's include the pith. They warp and twist a lot too >:(
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

Brucer

Quote from: REGULAR GUY on February 17, 2010, 01:06:12 PM
That 2" board cut around the pith, is it good for anything? I'm curious why cut it out? Does that also apply to Oak?

Sure it's good for some thing. There's nothing wrong with it, you just want to get the center out of the wood if you plan to resaw things later.

Wood shrinks more around the circumference than toward the center. This means a log or timber containing the center of the log is going to crack as it dries. Nothing you can do about it. This isn't a problem if a timber is cut to size and left to dry -- the cracking will appear on the center of one or more faces which is perfectly normal.

If you're storing timbers with the intention of resawing them later, you don't want those cracks because the wood you saw from the outer surfaces will fall apart.

When you saw out the center, the wood can distort as it shrinks, but it won't crack to the same extent. When you resaw it, all the pieces will be sound.

I don't know of any species that doesn't have differential shrinkage. Oak certainly does.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

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