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Bonus Notches

Started by Paul_H, April 17, 2003, 10:12:36 PM

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Paul_H

I am messing around with building dovetail sheds.They will be built using 6x8 fir.The thing I'm wondering about is what are the best(simplest) notches to use when tieing a interior wall into the exterior wall?

I have searched the net for any information on notches,or techniques,but have had no luck.

I would appreciate any help you can give.

Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

ohsoloco

Could you tell us a little more about this building?  I assume by dovetail shed you mean you'll be building a "log" shed with dovetails at the corners?  Will this interior wall  be load bearing?

burlman

hi paul, are you tieing in a framed wall, or do you intend to put in log partitions? Do you want to see the joint of the partition showing  through the exterior wall? send us more details on what you are looking for and we'll see if we can help you out. burlman....

sawinmontana

 A friend loaned me a book called "Notches of all Kinds, a book of timber joinery", by B. Allan Mackie, Log House Publishing Company, Ltd.  Prince George, British Columbia.
If you could find this book I think it has what you are looking for.

Scott

Paul_H

I will be making small buildings with no partitions for the most part.But a friend of mine is raising his house and asked if I could cut some walls to set the house down on.The dimensions are 38'x32'. There would be log partitions as well,so I wanted to see what was involved as far as notching and butt joints.Our mill will cut a maximum of 24' 6" in length.

I am not a carpenter or framer by any means,but am interested in giving this a try.




This is the building that I am practicing on,using a dovetail jig.I'm using #2  6x8x8' ties that we had laying around.It will be a fort for my little daughters.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Paul_H

I was fooling around today,trying to come up with a way of notching fast and easy.





Is this the type of notch used for partitions?I made multi cuts with a skilsaw,knocked out,chiseled and fit.Is there a better way?

Thankyou for your help!
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

ohsoloco

My brain is kinda smokin' thinking of a way to do this  ???  That's a nice method you have there, but I'm thinking that the little bit of end grain exposed on the outside of the building would easily break off...not sure if this would pose a problem for you or not.  That end grain covers the lap joint, but it wouldn't keep the timber locked in the wall if it was pulled upon by some force (not that it would be subjected to this type of force, but thought I'd mention it).

BTW, Paul, that's a nice looking frame  :)   Nice tight corner joints.   What kind of jig are you using?

ohsoloco

Maybe you could leave a few more inches in the end of the timber, and for added strength put a spike in each layer?

Forgot you asked about the butt joints.  In timber framing, when two timber need to be spliced together (butt jointed), a scarf joint is used.  There are many variations of this joint, and some are very complicated.  I don't know how well a scarf would work in your building, however, since there is only air space in between the timbers.  Usually, a scarf joint is placed directly over a brace for maximum support.  Perhaps you could stagger the scarfs and put some type of blocking under each joint that could be hidden by chinking?   I wouldn't want to cut four scarf joints for every layer of logs, however  :-/

Jeff

Yes, what jig is that Paul? Do you have a web address. I was looking for one a while back and could only find one that sold the chainsaw with it and it was up around a grand for the thing.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

sawinmontana

Ditto on everything that osoloco said. that small amount of relish will break of to easily even if just from the elements.

If the timbers were stacked you could just butt and run, and stagger the joints. The Amish out here build two sided log homes like that all the time out here. If you need to leave the space between timbers you could support each scarf like ohsoloco said. I'm not an engineer but I think you could use a simple half lap. It would need to be fairly long and then bolt them together. I don't think you would need one of the complicated scarf's because it wouldn't be subjected to any kind of load

Scott

P.S. Those are very good looking joints on your frame. You appear to be as much of an expert as I am!!

Paul_H

Good food for thought here,thanks.

It would be much easier to notch without the end grain.I was trying to get a look at a picture of a partition wall on the net,but haven't found one yet.

In between the runs,there are supposed to be 1 1/2" blocking to support and lag the rows together.I didn't put any in yet,except at the edge of the door.I bought the jig from  Great Northern Dovetailers Also got the video on simple construction methods for small buildings.The video was done well,with a bit of homespun humor.
I think the jig was worth the money.I pulled it out of the box and was notching in minutes.I made sparks a couple of times,but it was because I wasn't paying attention :D

Thanks for the encouragement
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

ohsoloco

That is one slick system, Paul, thanks for the link  :)

Keep posting pics, too...I wanna see how your building goes.

Mark M

Paul

How do you like that Dovetail jig? Is it pretty easy to use? How fussy is it with log dimension being exactly 6"x8"?

I am thinking about getting one in the near future and am glad to have found someone who actually has one. I do have their video and it looks pretty easy. I contacted them and asked about working with green logs and the fellow said they work with standing dead pine almost exclusively and that he wasn't sure about green timbers. Does anyone know?

Thanks

Mark

Paul_H

I didn't get to do any more dovetailing today.I had gotten way ahead of myself so today was spent building a skid foundation and proper floor for the "fort"

My son Tom and I headed up to the planer and cleaned up some 2x6's that were laying around(360 lineal feet).When we got back,we drug some 7x10's over and placed them on pier blocks.After some notching and spikeing,things were finally coming together.

Tomorrow the rest of the floor will be laid down,then we will put the building on top,and spike it down.



Mark,
I know that they use dead standing,but I am going to try to mill up a few cabins worth of timbers and stack and sticker them to dry for a few months.I think it will be okay.
It is really simple to use,and I'm pleased with the jig.As far as exact dimensions go,there are allowances within 3/8"-1/2" at least.If need be,you just run the chain across the timber to shave a little off.







The wheels on the bar slide along the flat bar of the jig.It cuts angles as well as square cuts.

Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

IndyIan

Hi Paul,
For joining your interior log walls to your exterior walls couldn't you use a half lap dovetail?  Even a 3D dovetail that dovetails vertically as well as horizontally.  Do you know what I mean?  

That way there would be more strength to resist the exterior wall pulling out from the interior.  You could have the dovetail not extend to the exterior as well and have it hidden.  

Hopefully your dovetail jig could be used for this.  If you do extend the interior logs through the exterior logs I'd watch to make sure your joints shed water.  Notice that your corner joints will shed water out of the joint when they get rained on.

Looks like a great project, good luck,
Ian

Mark M

Hi Paul

I looked through my log pictures and posted a bunch but never got back to putting a link to one that shows a partition wall. This picture http://www.pbase.com/image/15769852 shows the outside of a building with 2 partition walls. It is almost the same as your joint except there isn't any thing  sticking out on the outside.

What model of Husky did you get with your Dovetailor Jig? does it use a special chain?

Mark

Paul_H


 
I have been busy the last while and haven't had a chance to be on the forum.

IndyIan,
I think I understand what you are meaning in the half lap.DonP sent me a drawing of a dovetail notch that is hidden in the exterior wall.I have my chisel sharpened up,now I will have to try them out for size.

Mark,
The saw is a model 141.It is just a regular chain that came with it.It cuts quite nicely,even after I nicked the jig a few times :-/

Thanks for the pictures,it all helps.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

IndyIan

Looks good Paul.  How are the dovetails going?  I found they were a bit tough trying to get the last little corners of wood out.  I was using a 1.5" chisel so maybe a thinner one would let you get into the corners better.
You'll have to show the completed cabin when its done.

Ian

Paul_H

Well....it's coming along OK,butI screwed up in a few places.I was keeping an eye on square,but forgot about plumb :-/ :D(just the wall with the door)

Another problem was with spacing.I was using 1 1/2" spacer blocks,not taking into account the variations in the 8" width.Once I slowed down and had a coffee to let my brain catch up,things went better.

I'm glad that it is just a playhouse for my little daughters,because they don't seem to notice things like that.

We are milling up enough timbers to build three or four bigger cabins once they air dry.I'm hoping that all the bugs will be worked out on the playhouse.It has been a lot of fun!
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Paul_H


Got a little more done on the fort,and I'm hoping to get some kind of a roof on it this weekend.





The gable ends sawn and sanded.



4x6 rafters screwed down and ready for bird blocking.





Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Norm

Nice job Paul, are you sure that's for the kids and not for when you stay out too late? :D, if we see a satellite dish on top we'll know for sure.

btw, that's some pretty scenery in the background.


shopteacher

I thought bonus notches was Spanish for good day :D
Proud owner of a LT40HDSE25, Corley Circle mill, JD 450C, JD 8875, MF 1240E
Tilt Bed Truck  and well equipted wood shop.

Bro. Noble

Paul,

From the looks of the construction,  I'll bet the Big Bad Wolf is pithed :D

Noble
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Paul_H

Yes it is built like a brick..uh, out building :D It's held down by 12" spirals on the 6x8 's.I've been trying to source some 12" screws to use instead.No luck so far.

I'm still sticking with my story that it's for the kids ;)
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Tom

Well, if anybody can tear it down, kids can. :-/  I'd say that would be a pretty good test for building skills :D

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