Wheel loader to support sawmill

[T-mobile dimension]

I am looking at older wheel loaders to support my mobile dimension sawmill. I want as small of a loader as I can get without being too small. I have it narrowed down to a cat 910, case w14 or a case W11b. Just hoping you all can give me your opinions on those machines. I am located in the redwood country of Northern California and big diameter logs are common. Everything will be 20 feet or shorter though.  The idea with these smaller loaders is I am hoping to move it myself with a 20k gooseneck and my 1 ton dually.  I have Seen a W11 case  and 910 cat but haven't had a chance to check out any w14s yet.
I used a t-190 tracked bobcat with a grapple for a while worked ok but the tipping load was not enough for me and they cost too much.
The W11b weighs 12,000 lbs and the tipping load is 9000.  It looks really convenient to get in and out of all day and easy to tow so I am leaning that way but I am worried I will be disappointed when it comes to bigger logs. Does anyone know the actual operating weight of a cat 910? The w14 looks like 15800, a little heavy for a gooseneck
I would greatly appreciate your opinions please.

[longtime lurker]

http://www.ritchiespecs.com/specification?type=Construction+Equipment&category=Wheel+Loader&make=Caterpillar&model=910&modelid=91542

Ritchiespecs is the first place to look for basic specs on common earthmoving equipment.  Per that page operating weight on a 910 is 14210 lbs.
Further down the page you'll see information for static tipping load. If you divide that number by 2 you get a pretty accurate working payload, which in this case (9876.7 lbs / 2) is 4900 pound+ change.

Problem with all things earthmoving is that to get one big enough to actually do some work its got to be heavy which makes for transport headaches. If you need to stay under a weight limit you might do better to look at a 4WD forklift like a JCB 930/940 or similar. They'll lift more weight then the loader but because of the design will weigh a lot less - all that front clearance on a loader makes for a long lever arm keeping the back wheels on the ground:

My LD8R loader is rated at a 9052 lb SWL and weighs 16 ton more or less.
My JCB forklift is rated at  8820 lb SWL and weighs about 7.5 ton.

Thing being of course that the JCB can lift 4 ton and thats all it can lift. After that the back wheels come up and she aint going no-where.
The LD8 is stable with 4 ton and after that she gets a bit tippy.... but it can handle 6t with care and the back wheels dont come off the ground properly till shes got around 8 ton on her and you can always engage 4WD and sneak around the yard on  2 wheels  :D

[T-mobile dimension]

I saw the Richie specs for the cat. What is confusing is I was at the cat dealer and asked if they could look up specs for the 910. They dig around there database and found that 14600 lbs was the shipping weight and it had the bucket listed as +800 and cab as +1000lbs. So that would make it total 16,400 plus the weight of fuel and oil. Could they be right? I assumed the w14 case would be bigger than the cat and it is 15,800 reddy to go with operator per case specs.
I thought about the all terrain forklifts but I assumed they wouldn't be as good at retrieving logs from the woods.  I won't be doing that every day but sometimes people around here drop there trees before they have a plan to get them out.  I have a job coming up with 30mbf of redwoods scattered around there property. That one is flat land but I wasn't sure if a job forklift wood be too low slung for the woods?  There is a jcb at a rental yard, $3000 a month though!

[Larch]

I think you should try a rough terrain extended reach forklift before you do anything.  You cannot impeach the reach.

[longtime lurker]

Forklift is going to be a bit of a fail in the woods. Not so much ground clearance as just being configured wrong - you can't really tow much out with them, you can lift the log on the front but wont fit out through the trees, you could maybe chain the log to the forks and drag them out backwards but thats not real good for the mast. Maybe an arch behind it would be okay?
Loader with rippers at least you got some way to lift the log off the ground and pull it facing the right way. I've done that before, but most loader rippers arent high lift enough to really get the nose of the log up properly. Again an arch might be the way to go.

I'm a firm believer in hire and try. Hire the forklift for a few days when you've got work on. Hire a similar sized loader another time. That way you get to evaluate them properly for strengths and weaknesses before you own the repair bills.
We've got an Agrison TX926 (chinese 926 copy) on hire this week for just that reason. I need another all terrain forklift with some crossover capacity. It's a bit of a fail - the machine itself is okay but its not the right machine for the job I need it for - too bulky in a confined space. Dollar wise its a no brainer - it might be a little bit jerky and not quite the fit and finish of a Cat, but I could buy one of these new for $40k and the Cat new would cost $130k. For a machine that walks around the yard with packs of timber on the front for an hour a day its not hard to figure which is the better value for money.

[paul case]

My take on this is to get a parbuckling set up for your trailer to load logs with. A much smaller tractor would skid most logs if that was necessary to load them. Get the loader you want for around the mil yard and leave it there. That skid steer would probably push too heavy logs up a ramp on the side of the trailer and I know it would pull them from the other side.

That big heavy loader is going to require some hard ground to operate it and will be tough on your truck to haul it.

My $.02 worth.

PC

[ladylake]

 If you have a lot of space a front end loader should work good, I'm running a Volvo Mct125c in my rather tight log yard and it works great with the 1 arm and side door entrance. lift a 5500 # log.  They make a 135 or 145 also which would lift even more.  Mine weighs 10800#, not light but not real heavy.   Steve

[4x4American]

I've used a cat 938 loader when cutting trees down to skid them and load them around the gravel pit where I used to work.  It worked decent enough for that.  However, I wouldn't want to be going on portable jobs with it.  CustomSawyer has had or does have any type of rolling stock there is to own.  And when I needed to upgrade from my farm tractor that couldn't pick up much more than 2,000lbs, I asked him what he recommended.  Prior to talking to him I was set on a Lull.  He has one of them too.  He said if there was one piece of rolling stock he couldn't be without it'd be his Cat 420E IT.  So I talked with the Cat sales guy and he found me a nice used one to fit my budget and needs, and I wouldn't wanna be without it.  It is powerful and just doesn't say no.  He's cutting 40' hardwood logs and using his backhoe to do it.  Plus, the IT means it's a tool carrier.  So, without getting out of the cab I can change from bucket to forks to a graplle if I had one.  It has the aux hydraulics upfront for that.  Highly recommended, and can be pulled behind a pickup on a gooseneck if you have a heavy duty setup

[ladylake]

 


  Something like this would work good at a good price.   https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/18812897/2013-volvo-mct135c.   Steve

[Gearbox]

If you look at Case . Some years back they made them that the back Engine turned and they front axel was locked . When you came up to a truck and tried to line up the tail would wag and the bucket would stay in line . Hard for a operator to get used to .

[Ohio_Bill]

I bought an Allis Chalmers I500 several years ago and it has served me well. It is great around the mill and for moving lumber it is great. It is kind of a pain unloading trucks because it won't reach all the way across the truck. A couple of years ago I bought an AC 840 which is about the size of the 910 cat and W14 Case. It is a great addition to the mill. It may be my lack of experience, but you have to watch what you are doing in tight places or bad things can happen. The 840 is great for unloading trucks and moving logs. I have less than $10,000 in both.


 



 



 

[4x4American]

Ohio Bill, I see people with "lumber forks" that are like 8' long and you can get them as slip ons so alls ya gotta do it drive into it

[Ohio_Bill]

For unloading 8 ft forks would be nice .

[Ron Wenrich]

When you're talking about large diameter, 20' logs, I'm thinking you're going to be needing some fairly large equipment to move them.  What size of log is a "large diameter" to you? 

[longtime lurker]

Problem with 8' forks is you're back to the fulcrum aspect: the further out from the front axle of the machine the load center lies the more leverage it exerts  - so you need more machine behind the front axle to counterbalance it.

In practice I can handle a "half pack" (30" x 15" x 20'6") of timber with a 2.5t forklift. When the same half pack is on the end of 8' slippers a 2½ ton lift doesn't stand a chance, and a 4 tonner is struggling. The only thing with 8' slippers is you can walk a load across a truck one end at a time, then ditch the slippers for the close side of the truck.  But a fixed 8' fork can be a problem child because you cant get enough fork under a load to keep your CG back without taking half a truckload which then exceeds your weight capacity, and you have the same problem loading the close side of a truck unless your dunnage is like a foot high.

Its a vicious cycle, and the only solution is buy bigger machines if you play with bigger logs.

[nativewolf]

I've used a cat 938 loader when cutting trees down to skid them and load them around the gravel pit where I used to work.  It worked decent enough for that.  However, I wouldn't want to be going on portable jobs with it.  CustomSawyer has had or does have any type of rolling stock there is to own.  And when I needed to upgrade from my farm tractor that couldn't pick up much more than 2,000lbs, I asked him what he recommended.  Prior to talking to him I was set on a Lull.  He has one of them too.  He said if there was one piece of rolling stock he couldn't be without it'd be his Cat 420E IT.  So I talked with the Cat sales guy and he found me a nice used one to fit my budget and needs, and I wouldn't wanna be without it.  It is powerful and just doesn't say no.  He's cutting 40' hardwood logs and using his backhoe to do it.  Plus, the IT means it's a tool carrier.  So, without getting out of the cab I can change from bucket to forks to a graplle if I had one.  It has the aux hydraulics upfront for that.  Highly recommended, and can be pulled behind a pickup on a gooseneck if you have a heavy duty setup

I love a backhoe but...isn't that Cat backhoe get a bit long around a log deck?  I guess it is still shorter than a Lull (my personal wish list toy) but I always thought the Lull would be impractical around a saw yard.  The small loaders look about as good as they get to me, that AC 840 would be great moving snow or logs. 

[longtime lurker]

Problem with mill loaders is when you got one of these



 

You work it like one of these



 

And you work that one like it was this size



 

And you drag that poor old thing around the country because its easier to shift then this one



 

when all you really need is a pair of Cat 988G log loaders but you just cant DanG afford them because you're perpetually broke from fixing antique and/or undersized machinery up.

(There, I got to show off my toy collection too!!!)

[paul case]

Your just begging to fun over that saw with the JCB!

PC

[sealark37]

The Cat 910 would be a very useful machine around the log deck and saw mill.  Parts availability is excellent. 

[Dave Shepard]

For around the sawmill, a Lull would be my number one choice. If you ever have to unload a log truck or trailer, it takes a very big payloader to lift above the stakes. Also,  sitting off to the side you have much better visibility  when getting under things with the forks.

[T-mobile dimension]

Wow 19 replies you guys are on it!
I am trying to keep my setup mobile so I don't have to truck logs. Planning on offering a discount if people do want to bring them to me but so far the bit I have done and have orders for nobody wants to pay for trucking.  That is the motivation for a lighter moveable machine.  I would say the average logs will be 23" diameter but I have 60" plus redwoods and 48" Doug fir often.  When I got into this I didn't think there were many big trees left but it turns out the people who want me to mill are all small parcials of land and trees around there homes that were left standing when everything else was cut last.  Basically I need to find the happy medium between size and lifting force. Often my customers don't mind too much if I buck the big logs shorter. It's a pain in the butt to do but my mobile dimension can be set up on top of a log if a customer wants some 20' lumber from a large log or one of these old growths lying around. So far I haven't had any trees brought to me but I would like to head that direction some day and it would be nice to have the ability to unload log trucks but I might have to get a bigger piece of equipment when that day comes.
I have a dodge 3500 dually and want a 20k tandem dually gooseneck. hoping to get a machine that I can move and be self sufficient.  I think 16000 lbs on a gooseneck isn't the end of the world but those wheel loader are tall and top heavy so I am not too sure about it. Anyone have 1st hand experience?  I have spent a lot of time driving commercial truck so I know how to drive loaded heavy, just not with little trucks so don't know how it will work out.

[T-mobile dimension]

Here are some pics of my setup

[Larch]

These are really nice machines -- light weight, aux hydraulics, side door and some reach.  They haul easily with a one ton.  Ground clearance isn't massive but it's good.

However it is true that skidding trees can be hard on a boom. 

A picture off the internet of a Bobcat v417: 

[ChugiakTinkerer]

That picture of the V519 reminded me of a user on the TractorByNet forum that goes by the handle of Xfaxman.  He's an advocate of the Versahandler for just about any job that needs doing.  You might check out his posts over there to see if a telehandler might work for your needs.

[longtime lurker]

I think you're at the start of a slippery slope RE all the junk you suddenly need to play sawmillers. Because a saw is only the start of it.

When I re-entered the industry 10 years back I was just going to saw a few logs for me.
In about 3 weeks that turned into well I'm just going to saw a few logs for me plus sell a few boards along the way to selected customers.
Which turned into a few logs a day for lumber to sell and I still havent saw my own stuff I wanted. And we needed a loader dedicated to the mill.
And a bigger faster mill. As well as rather then replacement.
And a loader for the bush end
And a kiln
And a truck
And
And
And

Be really careful here. At the moment you're a portable sawmiller looking for equipment to handle logs, and that a sensible thing to look at.
As soon as that equipment goes into the weeds to pull logs out you're working as a logger. Nothing wrong with that but make sure you get paid for being a logger. If you add another service you should be paid for it. End of story.

Just always be thinking about how you are going to get the customer to pay for the service rendered, or you wake up one day to realise that you're hauling around a whole slew of gear and doing property improvements for free to get a humble BF rate sawing logs as you go.

[Dave Shepard]

 If you have all this equipment, your mobilization cost  will be huge. How large are these sawing jobs going to be?

[Brucer]

I've used a Cat 910 loader for several years and it's a great machine. The only downside is that I need to pull 4 pins to switch from the bucket to the forks. Other than that it's done everything I asked it to.

Be aware that the loader geometry won't keep a set of forks parallel to the ground as you raise them. If you're trying to load a truck, or stack lifts of lumber, you will have to tilt the forks as you lift them.

Some numbers from the Cat performance handbook:
  Static tipping load - straight ahead - 10,000 pounds
  Static tipping load - full turn - 9200 pounds.
  Operating weight - 14,200 pounds.
  Engine - 3204 - 65 HP.

I regularly moved 52' Douglas-Fir logs with the forks set 60" wide. Just had to get the log's balance point correct (and drive slowly).

A couple of times I tried to pick a log out of the bottom of a pile that was frozen together -- lifted the back end of the machine with no trouble :D.

Something else to check out. The 910 comes in two versions -- conventional 3 speeds forward / 1 reverse, or 3 forward / 3 back. The guy I rent my machine from has one of each and I've worked with both of them.

The 3 & 3 transmission shifts forward / reverse by moving the lever in the appropriate direction. The gear selection is done by rotating the handle on the shift lever. This lets you shift forward or backward in the same gear.

[barbender]

Moving a 16,000 pound machine on a 1 ton/20K gooseneck is doable, I've hauled my 17K skidder on my 14k gooseneck, just get plenty of the weight on the rear axle of the truck and it's ok- but not every day. And that's on flat ground, I don't think I'd want that load behind me in mountains. In fact, I KNOW I wouldn't. Not to mention, you will be working the snot out of your truck's drivetrain. How will you be reimbursed for that? I think (my opinion, it's free ;)) you are putting yourself out too much, and asking too many things of one machine. I've been proven wrong many a time, though. If you find a niche skidding, decking and sawing customer's logs (you do have high value timber you're working with, that's certainly a plus) and can make money at all phases of the operation, that would be a nice gig. I hope it works for you.

[ButchC]

I have a W11B and it is ALL I want behind my 1 ton truck and 14,000 GVW gooseneck trailer when hauling both bucket and forks however it does have the optional heavy counter weight due to having a quick tach and I have forks and a bucket. I have no idea what it is rated for lifting but I just this week handled some 40" x 12' Maple logs and it was childs play for it.  We use it a lot and it has been trouble free, dont know what else to say about it? The quick attach is proprietary and the only minus.

[mdo]

Ohio_bill

Excellent machine AC 840.  Fits on a 10 ton trailer, but do NOT pull it with a one ton truck.  Mine has moved thousands of wood processing logs safely,  Huge amounts of big round bales and even more manure.  Add grapples to that loader and is a mean machine.  Old and dependable.  I see you are a senior member and also a junior to me.   I am about 2 1/2 hrs north of you and around Wooster. 

[T-mobile dimension]

Longtime lurker,
I hate to say it but your schedule is spot on with my thought process. I actually have a 99 t800 kenworth that was going to be turned into a water truck but decided against that so it's for sell. I am trying to keep this operation very simple and as low overhead so I though the truck can go. Maybe I should keep it???  I got great deal on it

Brucer,
The 910 sounds better and better. Do you think the 3 speed reverse version is worth having?  I was thinking it might be unnecessary and more to break?
Also I have seen a few IT12's for sale, they look just like a 910. I think they weigh closer to 16500 though, I can't imagen the different loader arm itself adds 2000 lbs compared to the 910. Does anyone know where the extra weight comes from. Maybe it is all around a little bigger? 
As for all the reach lift suggestions I think they are too expensive for my budget at this time.  These old wheel loaders seem to cost half as much so I am leaning there way. There was someone selling s couple old pettibone reach lifts fir $8k. I didn't know I'd parts were available for them though.

ButchC, 
The w11b seems like it would be very economical to maintain. I know the cummins motor very well and I think the whole machine is pieced together with common parts that are used in other brands of equipment as well.  The other thing that is very very appealing is how easy they are to get in and out of the cab. Only concern was it being too small.  It is rated for 3800 lbs  but that 40" maple log must have been a lot heavier than that?  Sorry I have no experience with maple.

What most of my business is going to come from are 3 acre land conversions. Maybe you guys have heard about the cannabis/marijuana industry that is taking over our county?  The county decideded to hand out permits to allow people to commercially grow cannibus. They are allowed to clear up to 3 acres of timber land and we have thousands of 3 acre cuts going on. The problem we have is
#1 most didn't get a timber harvest permit to sell the trees
#2 most of our mills shut down here. The ones that are left have this thing going on where they only buy logs from certified sustainable forests.  If you cut a tree you have to replant two more or something. Clearing land to grow pot doesn't count as sustainable.
I think it is a short lived industry because there is nothing economical about farming in the mountains where there is no water!!!  However I got nothing else going on right now so I think I'm going for it. They are building houses out there, they have logs and they need lumber. It seems like a no brainer right? 
Tons of useful information here thank you all

[TKehl]

Here is my contrarian view.   :-\

A lot of people like the MD mills for portability.  Instead of hauling equipment, have you thought about a log arch/winch for your pickup to move most of the logs.  Anything too large to move that way, set your mill up around the log using a winch to roll it away from the rest of the trunk.  Of course, I don't know your climate or terrain.  May require a tractor or UTV +arch instead of a truck.  Maybe a more portable mill (Lucas/Peterson/Turbo) mill makes sense.

The loggers around here don't want to move a skidder for less than 10-15 acres (unless it's good walnut).  I'm hearing you want to move it for 3 or less.  I wouldn't be excited about that.

Next question:  Does the target market have money?  My guess is a large percentage will want you to cut on shares.  In my head I picture a target market that eat LOVE for lunch and PEACE for supper with lots of time and labor available, but shallow pockets.   :D  Or I could have a preclusion for stereotypes of what I saw in college?   ???  It is also possible that both are correct.   :

[T-mobile dimension]

These growers are unlike the hippies of yesterday. They have been doing this all along but they are no longer hiding because it is "legal".  For the last 3-4 years the norm would be to grow several hundred pounds of there "flowers" each year and sell for $1500-2000 each lb. what I see is they have all lost the concept of saving money or spending it sensibly.  Many  buy a brand new $60000+ Diesel pickup and have it totally trashed 6 months later, but that is  ok they will get a better one next fall lol.  This is why I believe it is short lived. As soon as real farmers get ahold of the market these other want-to-be farmers will run out of money in a matter of months or less. It is actually comical to me.  I think I have a few years of busy times though but I could be wrong.

[nativewolf]

You have to like selling to a cash rich client base that can't report it for tax reasons, what else are they going to do with the money 8); hire someone to mill lumber! 

Sounds like a very good plan to me.  In fact, I'd see about putting together a nice wood drying shed, long long one.  These folks could be cutting some really nice stuff on little lots and it could be high dollar lumber if you could aggregate together a container load every month.  Ship it to Japan or down the coast to SF or LA. 

[ButchC]

Not sure if this helps you bu had the 11B out so I picked up some logs that were handy, sorry nothing huge but it handled these Ash 14-18" logs easily. I think an 11B would do anything you need. Problem is the smaller used machines often cost more than larger ones. Mine has  2 auxiliary valves and the quick hitch that I believe are optional.

[T-mobile dimension]

Well I thought I had my mind made on the W11b case yesterday,  then I took my mill to the next job.
I stood in front of the butt cut for perspective. I am 6'-0" and it almost comes to my shoulder. The customer wants everything to be left in 20 foot lengths.
If I could drag this one and roll it into the mill that would be ok. I don't know if I could do that though. Probably just set up over it. 

w

[paul case]

Wow, has that thing got some thick bark or what? Peel that off and it might only come to your waist!

PC

[T-mobile dimension]

Yeah that one is 48" of wood. But the bark is nearly 6" thick.

[barbender]

Looks like some serious taper, too!

[longtime lurker]

Looks like around here so far as equipment needs. You could do 80% of the logs with a little machine but the other 20% comprise half the volume of wood and you got to have big machines to handle them.

I'd be thinking home made, outsized, reinforced to a fare thee well, log arch for shifting them. Dont need much machine to drag them around once you got the nose of the log up. And similarly you dont need much machine to roll them up skids, or you cn lift one end of the log around at a time if you need to. All takes time which is money of course but if its occasional big logs you can do it that way.

But if you get a lot of those bigger logs you better keep the KW.... you're going to need it to haul your 950 sized loader around. :D

[Darrel]

Well I thought I had my mind made on the W11b case yesterday,  then I took my mill to the next job.
I stood in front of the butt cut for perspective. I am 6'-0" and it almost comes to my shoulder. The customer wants everything to be left in 20 foot lengths.
If I could drag this one and roll it into the mill that would be ok. I don't know if I could do that though. Probably just set up over it. 

w

This reminds me of Pacific Lumbers logging train when I was a kid. It would take the whole train just to hall one tree from Yager creek to the mill in Scotia.

[JustinW_NZ]

So - so true..

We went down the path a bought a machine a little bigger than the 910cat (10 ton - cat924 class?)
If we need to it gets moved via truck and the customer pays as part of the job.
HOWEVER we have just spent a year at the last job so that easily makes it worth it....
For something close and local i would drive it to site as it is road legal.

I find the slightly bigger machine a lot safer at moving the bigger logs and also i dont like to be 'on the edge' while positioning logs on the mill as if the machine and log tips forward on the road, no foul, but if it does it onto your expensive mill?!?!

Quickhitch in my books is fantastic too - Usualy find on site theres other work that people will hire the loader for - moving dirt or gravel etc...
I also find the loader way faster at moving wood bundles and placing than our small or large forklifts.

We bought the machine new - so yes it came at a cost, BUT it is the only thing I hardly ever put a spanner too though and it seems to be a good advertisement.

Cheers
Justin

Looks like around here so far as equipment needs. You could do 80% of the logs with a little machine but the other 20% comprise half the volume of wood and you got to have big machines to handle them.

I'd be thinking home made, outsized, reinforced to a fare thee well, log arch for shifting them. Dont need much machine to drag them around once you got the nose of the log up. And similarly you dont need much machine to roll them up skids, or you cn lift one end of the log around at a time if you need to. All takes time which is money of course but if its occasional big logs you can do it that way.

But if you get a lot of those bigger logs you better keep the KW.... you're going to need it to haul your 950 sized loader around. :D

[T-mobile dimension]

Alright I pulled the trigger on the W11b. Being able to move it with my pickup was ultimately what sold me on it.  It is as easy to jump in and out as a pickup, which seems way more convenient than the narrow ladder going up the 910.   I might be building a logging arch to move the big pigs
I'll post pics when i get it home

[T-mobile dimension]

I have been using my loader for a couple weeks so I wanted to fallow up on the forum. So far I really like it. It will pick up a big log though I have found the limit. A 36"x18 foot redwood log got the back tires off the ground. Logs a few inches in dia. smaller it had no problem if I had the rear tires loaded and on flat ground I think it would have lifted it.
I like how low the cab is. I am constant jumping in and out when I am positioning a log or stack of lumber and this loader is nice for that. None step and you are in the cab. With the cab on the front half the visibility is good though I find that I have to look behind me to see if I am articulated or straight when I am maneuvering in tight places. Not a big deal but something I dislike. The cat 910 I was considering is built much more heavy duty than the cases. the cat frame looks like it is 1-1/2 solid steel where the case is 1/4".  All in all though I am pleased. Total price after shipping was 13,800
Hours

[Darrel]

Thanks for the pictures. That looks to me like a pretty sweet piece of equipment.