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$ per BTU: oil vs wood

Started by rank, January 27, 2018, 09:39:19 AM

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Kwill

When figuring the fuel vs firewood are you taking the labor in account?
Built my own hydraulic splitter
Built my own outdoor wood stove
Built my own log arch
built my own bandsaw sawmill
Built my own atv log arch.
Built my own FEL grapple

John Mc

Quote from: Kwill on February 04, 2018, 04:52:17 PM
When figuring the fuel vs firewood are you taking the labor in account?

Since he is using the market selling price he is taking into account the labor involved in producing it. Yes, it's also less convenient than fuel oil or propane, which is why it never will command the same price.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

buckgrunt

If you take into consideration the man hours it takes to log, cut, split, deliver, and stack firewood, I would say that  based solely on $ per BTU, your better off with oil/propane/natural gas.  But burning wood provides great exercise, time outdoors, and the peace of mind of not contributing to the oil/gas man's yacht payment......This is PRICELESS.

Kwill

Plus the fact that there isnt a replacement for wood heat. Most people who are use to wood heat freeze when they go to gas
Built my own hydraulic splitter
Built my own outdoor wood stove
Built my own log arch
built my own bandsaw sawmill
Built my own atv log arch.
Built my own FEL grapple

rank

Quote from: John Mc on February 04, 2018, 09:28:43 PM
Quote from: Kwill on February 04, 2018, 04:52:17 PM
When figuring the fuel vs firewood are you taking the labor in account?

Since he is using the market selling price he is taking into account the labor involved in producing it. Yes, it's also less convenient than fuel oil or propane, which is why it never will command the same price.
Correct.  As an example I have a neighbor that puts 7 cords/yr through his wood fired boiler to heat his house and shop.  If he was to pay $400 delivered x 7 that's $2800.  Based on btu's he'd spend $5600 on oil.  So he saves ~$2800 if he buys the wood and ~$5600 if he gets standing timber for free (which he does).

**not counting boiler efficiency

Kwill

Built my own hydraulic splitter
Built my own outdoor wood stove
Built my own log arch
built my own bandsaw sawmill
Built my own atv log arch.
Built my own FEL grapple

rjwoelk

My area wood goes for 160 to 175 for a 1/3 cord. Truck box load. 380 to 480 a cord.
That said just geting the 16 ft logs to my door is over 220. Then the processing labour and proffit.
Lt15 palax wood processor,3020 JD 7120 CIH 36x72 hay shed for workshop coop tractor with a duetz for power plant

John Mc

Quote from: Kwill on February 05, 2018, 11:07:44 PM
400 a cord? That's expensive

There are people who get that around here for seasoned hardwood. We're in a fairly heavily wooded area, but just on the edge of the "bedroom community" area for Burlington, VT. $300-$350 is probably more typical, but the guys who sell for $400 delivered - dumped, not stacked (and have a good reputation) don't seem to have any trouble selling out. The least two winters were so mild, almost everyone had some left over. This winter, no problem at all getting $350 delivered.

Green wood goes for less. Then there are always the guys who sell for beer money...
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

rank

Quote from: Kwill on February 05, 2018, 11:07:44 PM
400 a cord? That's expensive
I should mention it's $400 CDNso ~ $325 US.

That is on the upper end of what guys are getting here.  My neighbor sold 40 cords for $300 last year.  Increased his price to $350 this year and still was sold out by early November.  Seasoned hardwood this time of the year you can almost name your price.

Kwill

Sounds like I need to load a semi full of red oak and head that way. A cord here brings 120.00-180.00.
Built my own hydraulic splitter
Built my own outdoor wood stove
Built my own log arch
built my own bandsaw sawmill
Built my own atv log arch.
Built my own FEL grapple

Dave Shepard

How many tickets for transporting firewood would you get? :o

My house would burn 300 gallons a month in oil or four cords dry hardwood. The oil is cheaper, but not as cheap as burning the slabwood that I have to dispose of anyway. I have time and no money, so slabwood it is. I tell people that if I had to buy wood, I'd buy oil.  :D
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

John Mc

Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 06, 2018, 07:35:16 PM
How many tickets for transporting firewood would you get? :o

My house would burn 300 gallons a month in oil or four cords dry hardwood. The oil is cheaper, but not as cheap as burning the slabwood that I have to dispose of anyway. I have time and no money, so slabwood it is. I tell people that if I had to buy wood, I'd buy oil.  :D

You must have a heck of a deal on oil, or your cordwood is really expensive (or your cordwood burner is not very efficient). I don't think I've ever run into someone who says cordwood is more expensive to heat with - more hassle? yes, but more expensive?
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Dave Shepard

Oil is $2.67. 300x2.67= $801 4 cords of wood delivered has got to be $1,000, maybe more. Then I would have to feed the boiler twice a day. Minimum $200 a month savings in cold weather.  As far as log length, it's a minimum of $700 for a tri-axle, but most are $800 or more. Then you have to cut and split, that is worth something, too. I based the comparison on purchased split wood to keep the labor factor out of the equation. If you value your time, log length would probably be break even with oil.  If my house was well insulated, and my oil burner wasn't a 1947 Arcoliner stolen from a steam ship, I'd probably only burn $400 a month in oil.  :D
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

jason.weir

I'd guess Dave is heating with a outside wood boiler, I've said for years that if I had to buy wood to feed my boiler, it would be significantly cheaper to buy oil or gas.

If you're heating with an efficient inside stove or maybe one of the newer gasifier units it may be different, but the old Central Boiler's are wood pigs, very inefficient.

How inefficient you ask, a 10 years back we went on vacation in Feb and had family stay to watch the house, kids & animals.  I didn't want them to have to feed the boiler so I hooked up an oil  burner (I have the dual-fuel option).  We left Saturday morning with the boiler full of dry hardwood, a 55 gallon oil drum full of #2 and 4 - 5 gallon cans of #2 sitting beside it.  By Thursday the 75 gallons of #2 was gone & they were burning wood..  That was the last time I used the oil burner..

Jason

Dave Shepard

I have a 6048 Dual Fuel, but I didn't have a burner in it. I'm  burning oil in the house furnace, which is very inefficient.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

jason.weir

Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 06, 2018, 10:18:26 PM
I have a 6048 Dual Fuel, but I didn't have a burner in it. I'm  burning oil in the house furnace, which is very inefficient.

Me too same 6048 - I believe the dual fuel option was a waste of $$$...


Dave Shepard

In my situation, if the wood runs out, the oil burner will start as it cycles at a lower temp than the wood boiler. If there's oil in the tank.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Al_Smith

All I have in the firewood is my time .It's just outside my back door .Other than  that it's a well fed geothermal which does nicely all things considered .Cheaper but certainly not free .In this area oil burners are almost non existent these days .Either natural gas or profane  er propane that is .You can't even find coal to burn .Firewood is abundant and judging by the prices already mentioned rather cheap at 180-200 a full cord .Plus it's good stuff Oak,hickory and just oddles of EAB killed ash .

rank

Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 06, 2018, 09:36:58 PM
Oil is $2.67. 300x2.67= $801 4 cords of wood delivered has got to be $1,000, maybe more.
Using your prices:
OIL
1 gallon of #2 = 138,500 btu x 300 gals = 41.6 million BTU's for $801 = $20/million BTU
WOOD
1 cord of hickory/ash = approx 26 million btu x 4 cords = 104 million BTU's for $1000 = $10/million BTU

What am I missing?

rank

Quote from: rank on February 07, 2018, 10:27:34 AM
Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 06, 2018, 09:36:58 PM
Oil is $2.67. 300x2.67= $801 4 cords of wood delivered has got to be $1,000, maybe more.
Using your prices:
OIL
1 gallon of #2 = 138,500 btu x 300 gals = 41.6 million BTU's for $801 = $20/million BTU
WOOD
1 cord of hickory/ash = approx 26 million btu x 4 cords = 104 million BTU's for $1000 = $10/million BTU

Your wood burning appliance must be awfully inefficient to burn 4 cords/month.

jason.weir

Quote from: rank on February 07, 2018, 10:33:20 AM
Your wood burning appliance must be awfully inefficient to burn 4 cords/month.

Yup they are, and then some.

To be fair I've never tried just good dry hardwood, and probably wont. 

I always burn whatever shows up (free), be it (likely green) pine, hemlock, pallets, etc..  And all of it sits outside covered with snow & ice. I cut it all to 40" and split it to 6-10" in diameter.

Weather depending, (for 15 years) I regularly burn a cord of that junk a week in Jan, Feb and March, heating to 72+ degrees a 2K sq foot basement, another 2K sq foot 1st floor and 1K on the second floor, plus all the hot water my wife & kids can use.

All told this winter (Oct 1 - April 30ish) I'll go through 15+ cord & if I had to buy that same wood I'd be ahead of the game (time & $$ wise) with oil or gas, these outside boilers are inefficient but so is the wood I choose to use.  As I said a modern efficient wood appliance burning good dry hardwood would be a different story but that's sure not what I have. 

Lots of folks ask about my boiler and my story is always the same, its a wood pig and if you have free wood and don't mind the time it will save you $$, if not stay with oil or gas.

Jason

Dave Shepard

Everyone is trying to look at this theoretically. The real deal is that the house uses 300 gallons a month or four cords of wood. That's it. There's no need for math. The house is horribly under insulated, the oil burner is from 1947, and while it is running very cleanly, it's still not an efficient design, and three owb is not very efficient either.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

rank

I beg to differ Dave.  I believe there is a need for math.  I would guess you're burning junk Wood.

Dave Shepard

I specifically stated dry hardwood. I know it takes 10 gallons a day to maintain my house at temperature. I knows it takes a cord of dry hardwood a week to maintain my house at temperature.  What math is required to compare that? Sure, if you wanted to do a study of where all that synergy is going, fine. To compare the monthly cost of heating my house? No. There are a lot of places to lose heat between the owb and my basement.

The dollar value may be a littler closer to even, as I used $250 per cord, and I was just told that the price may be cheaper than that here. However, oil still doesn't require twice daily input.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

thecfarm

I tried that green wood, once with softwood and once with hardwood. Cut it down, saw it up, split, feed to OWB, all in the same hour. Softwood took some wood, and I mean wood. I was cleaning a pasture, so I wanted it gone. Just did not need to burn 20 cords in one winter.  :D That's probably a little high. But I do know I had to work to keep ahead.
The hardwood was no where near as bad. I try to get ahead now.
I burn dead, rotten wood and I burn less of that than the green softwood.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

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