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Steep cable logging question

Started by mike_belben, December 29, 2017, 01:50:11 PM

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starmac

We have a couple of pretty good sized equipment auctions here every summer. This summer a cummins powered 667 clark cable rig that ran well and was clean and straight went for 3500 bucks. I was not interested init, so didn't go further into checking it out, but something like that with some life left would be a money maker for some of you guys.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

mike_belben

They bring 7-12k here.  Love to have but its not in my cards for the foreseeable future.
Praise The Lord

starmac

Mike, that was the cheapest I have seen one here, but there is not a very good market for logging gear here either, nor does many want a line machine. If it would have had a grapple on it, I would have checked it out a little better. If I had of known it wasn't going to bring any more than that I would have checked it out anyway, and built a fire fighting rig out of it if nothing else. Ofcoarse, if I would have bid on it, it would broke records on the selling price. lol
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

thecfarm

mike,DanG.you got some nice land there. Some hills but even ones.  ;D  No rocks!! That little tractor would get a work out in Chesterville.  :D I have little knolls,big knolls,wet hole,big rocks.It's a challenge to get a road through it all at time. I have main roads,but branch off from them and have to figure out the best way to get around everything.
I just put one in and that took some rock hauling to fill in the wet hole and fill in between the rocks that was sticking up about 6 inches. I thought it was done,but one place I don't like after I came across a few times,4-5 buckets of rocks will make me happy.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

ehp

that's pretty much the ground I have been cutting all winter and big oak , you guys will laugh but I cut 10 big oak a day and do quite well at that . Pretty much the first 30 feet of tree is high grade . Its tough but once you learn how to get those big trees up the grade it starts getting abit easier

mike_belben

Those videos were where i built the tractor in massachusetts years ago.  The land was a patch of woods the city owned and forgot about, i kept it clean so people always had room to dump.more trash.

During wet winter, the little tractor is crippled here in tennessee clay where everything is off camber.  If you manage to get started you eventually slide off sideways and get pinned into something then cant get anywhere.
Praise The Lord

longtime lurker

Please dont mount the winch on top of the dozer or you will die.

Well maybe not die, but you will be devoting more of your time to putting it track side down then you planned on. 31's are funny critters on that little fixed track frame. They hold and hold with your ass like a limpet on the seat but with no diagonals and equaliser bar to level them they just kinda lean over at angles that make you wonder how its still on its feet. Quite stable but when the go they fall hard and fast and theres no moment of warning where you might have saved it digging the blade tip in quick.


   and you'll be able to find that oil leak with some daylight in there for sure.

Mount the winch in the traditional manner. It'll help keep your Center of Gravity low. It will actually improve your balance front to back on that machine.
Build yourself an arch like Riwakas post had. That is exactly the way we did similar country around here. It works and its as safe as anything hill logging can be.
(the reason they snapped them off with the winch in vid was because you dont want to be in there sawing with cables hooked up, and you dont want them falling with cables not hooked up lest they slide down the hill and be lost BTW)

You arent chasing skyline volumes. Instead of thinking double drum if you've got a few logs to come up in one place all you need is a pulley mounted below your face, a coil of rope, and one of those man portable capstan winches with the little gas motor. ½" spectra is all you need for a messenger line and its a whole lot easier to live with then wire.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Puffergas

Mike_belben, sounds like a hydro. I was surprised how well your brakes held when winching in the log nice JD 140 ! !



Yes, I corrected the rear tire direction.
Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

GEHL 5624 skid steer, Trojan 114, Timberjack 225D, D&L SB1020 mill, Steiger Bearcat II

mike_belben

I was thinking i recognized your sig from somewhere.  Ive seen your gasifier machine around.. Maybe youtube or MTF.  Pretty neat.  Did quite a bit of reading on gasification but got sidetracked from ever trying it.  Have done lots of veggie power, veggie heat, stoves and so forth.

Ive just finally gotten to watch all the videos, the dude in the linkbelt lasso-ing that tong was incredible.   Thanks to all who posted, lot to think about.




So heres the best winch i have, and the obvious reason why rear mount will be very difficult.  That hyd motor would push the winch so far back.  And then id be jamming limbs and slash up in between, snap the motor mount or fittings etc.  Im just not willing to deal with that thing blocking me every time i have to adjust brakes or get at batteries.   I do have another much smaller hyd winch with easier mounting that may work out for rear mount, but no freespool.  I also came up with a little better front pulley boom that could pretty much stay on and not take any setup, just put the blade down and feed out some line.  It wouldnt be quite as tall however. 

Im not really that convinced a winch on the roof will cause too much trouble with stability.  My forklift is narrower and sinks easier yet ive operated it on the same ground with about 10k on the forks at 8 to 10ft high and not flopped it yet.  Im ontop a big plateau.  30 miles in any direction and youre in steep steep country but up here ontop its mostly rolling terrain with furrows cut by ions of drainage off the plateau.  Stay out of the furrow/ravine/gulch/bluff/hollar/whathaveyou and its not too bad.   

I do own this 4pt pin on backhoe that looks like it would go right onto the case 450 loader which came with a factory extendahoe as pictured previously.  The factory hoe with bucket works fine and removes very easy.  I dont intend to do anything except adding a manual thumb to that unit.



This massey hoe however is kinda up for whatever surgery suits my needs, i dont have a bucket for it anyhow.  The loader is still in mass and the hoe is here in tennessee so ive not ever gotten to line them up, but if the mounts can work ive intended to set it up as a stumping attachment to go onback the 450.  Thats the job i get asked to do more than any other, and always have to turn down, D31 is too small for stumping.  But a root shear to snip and loosen around the stump and then the loader bucket or grapple fork to curl em out would be pretty efficient and keep hours off the undercarriage.  The proportion of the drawing didnt come out right but you get the picture.   




Meanwhile, im watching yoder vids and seeing that the swing function is pretty handy to get the log piled off to the side out of your way once it crests the landing.  Figured maybe something like this could work well.



The tractor is obviously just a self propelled power unit for the yoderhoe.  Grapple not really necessary, a foot plate would be fine so that the stick serves as a stabilizer leg to resist tipping.  Wouldnt be hard to anchor the bucket to a stump either.   If the hydraulics werent strong enough to keep the mast up a chain could be clevised from the winch end to the cab roof.  Whether dual drum with a carriage or single, i dunno.  Didnt cost anything to draw it in there. 

The winch post would be an easy bolt/pin on to the massey stick's pivot gusset plates.  A sling from the forklift or bobcat would make putting winch on or off pretty straight forward. 
Praise The Lord

47sawdust

I think I would follow LongtimeLurker's advice and use an arch behind the dozer with the winch mounted in the traditional way.
Here in Vermont that set-up was used a lot and arches still come up for sale on CL,Not A difficult build either.
I enjoy your posts and hope you come up with a safe and affordable approach that works well for you.

I can see the gears going in your brain all the way up here,my wife would think we're related,

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Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

teakwood

X2. Although i don't know your markets, i can't imagine such an arch to be expensive
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

TKehl

Quote from: mike_belben on December 29, 2017, 06:11:25 PM
Anyone ever seen a log arch winched down over a hill?

Seen it, but haven't done it... yet.  Smaller arch than what has been discussed.  The kind of thing a guy with a stick welder and some scrap metal could build.   ;)

http://timbergreenforestry.com/page234.html
http://timbergreenforestry.com/page235.html

When I build one, I will make it a little bigger with mobile home or steel tires and put a removable dolly wheel in front to help steer it downhill.  Think like the front dolly wheel(s) with tongue of a bar type hay rake.
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

Jeff

Quote from: TKehl on January 02, 2018, 09:04:55 AM
Quote from: mike_belben on December 29, 2017, 06:11:25 PM
Anyone ever seen a log arch winched down over a hill?

Seen it, but haven't done it... yet.  Smaller arch than what has been discussed.  The kind of thing a guy with a stick welder and some scrap metal could build.   ;)

http://timbergreenforestry.com/page234.html
http://timbergreenforestry.com/page235.html

When I build one, I will make it a little bigger with mobile home or steel tires and put a removable dolly wheel in front to help steer it downhill.  Think like the front dolly wheel(s) with tongue of a bar type hay rake.
The arch in the links given was a Future Forestry Arch, Future forestry arches ARE Logrite arches now. Logrite bought the arch line several years ago from Mark Havel.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

mike_belben

Well, id love to have a normal forestry winch in the normal forestry spot, but ill say it again, i really cant do it with this one.  It would have a fairlead 4feet behind the machine and would wheelie.

Putting an oem winch onto this would cost more than i can come up with.  Selling this to buy a factory winch machine with 6 way, full cab and good undercarriage would result in an even bigger deficit, so im stuck with what ive got for now.  It'll take a few pieces of iron, some bolts, a valve and hoses (all of which i have) to try it up topside.  If it dont work i just take it off.  I'll have no trouble admitting it didnt work out.


I do have a pretty suitable collection of stuff to build a walk behind steerable arch, pallet jack style, to dether down on a cable but i still need to be on a cable so thats a second project ontop the first.  Plus it'd require two guys to operate. 
Praise The Lord

mike_belben

That RC arch is pretty epic.  Im impressed.
Praise The Lord

Puffergas

As long as the cable goes to a lower mounted snatch block, the roof mounted winch should not be more prone to tip the cat over than where the down low snatch block is mounted.

If the snatch block is higher than the winch the cat will be more tippy.
Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

GEHL 5624 skid steer, Trojan 114, Timberjack 225D, D&L SB1020 mill, Steiger Bearcat II

mike_belben

It would add about 500lbs to the roof and move the COG up, but the stability triangle on the thing is pretty darn good and im not much of a risk taker.  If i had to do a pond or 2:1 grade i could pull the winch off and plug the hoses. 

Im considering the lower fairlead as the only skidding location so that the forces acting on the chassis are normal, and any upper rollers as an option for yarding from stable stationary positions.  I mean, i wouldnt consider operating a yoder or yarder before it was rigged up with guy wires or stabilizers on a level pad.  I imagine those are pretty easy to flip if you set up wrong too. So ..dont set up wrong then.
Praise The Lord

Puffergas

That is a good point. The weight of the winch would adjust the center of gravity .
Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

GEHL 5624 skid steer, Trojan 114, Timberjack 225D, D&L SB1020 mill, Steiger Bearcat II

longtime lurker

 Looking at your winch would it be possible to make a spacer plate to go between the current mounting bolts and the mounting points on the back of the machine? That would also require swinging the fairlead 90° but would mount the hyd motor vertically up. Its a hydraulic motor... it doesnt care which way is up.

Seen a study once: Would you believe that in 87% of dozer rollovers other then fluids the machine can be righted and walk off. The odds arent so good for the monkeys in the seat). I've tipped a few myself. Other then some bruises and the shakes and a lunchbox upside the head I've been pretty lucky. I knew some guys who weren't.  Lot of that country we used to work was more brown than green on a contour map though.

I'm hearing ya about the $ Mike, and know you arent going to go looking for trouble with it but still... I'm concerned.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

starmac

Well guys, from what I have seen on what he is looking at doing, the blade will be buried to keep the cat from pulling forward and the winch will be pulling on the dog leg, how is it going to flip the machine unless that little winch can flip it end over end. I doubt seriously the rops would stand that kind of pressure.

Now the weight of the winch will change the center of gravity a bit for general dozer use, but we are talking a very small percentage in the grand scheme of things.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

longtime lurker

ummmmmmmm... thinking outside the square.

its a hydraulic winch and aside from line restriction/flow drop (and you got plenty flow on that girl if you put a diversion valve off the angle rams  - mount directly behind the spool valves and the lever comes up beside the right armrest then a pair of quick couplers at the back because I've done this on a D31 afore ) it doesnt need to be hooked to the machine at all.

Build an arch and mount it on that. Keeps it nice and low. Drop two hoses and your drawbar pin and its gone.
Which leads to the next observation that the back half of a wrecked skidder would be worth keeping an eye out for.

The one thing I can tell you for sure Mike is that having done the D31 backwards skid trick myself a time or 500 if you can get an arch she'll tow more going forward with an arch then you ever could off the blade and you wont be cricking your neck all the time doing it, or beating the idlers to death when shes got the drive sprockets off the ground and still pulling like a train. I got a lot of respect for those little tractors, wish I had pictures of some of the things I dragged out with mine.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

mike_belben

I looked at clocking the winch so that the motor is vert/horizontal.  Its do-able with some vent changing and maybe having to drill and tap a new oil fill for the worm, but then it either puts the freewheel lever in harms way or blocks it, and moves the fairlead down bottom under the winch.  And still is totally in my way.

  Im not saying it couldnt be done, im saying i want it on the roof.  Why? because i believe that is a superior location for my needs with only one small drawback.  Now i could be wrong.  Until someone shows up to say they tried it and went back to conventional mounting because its limits outweighed its merits, we are all kinda guessing and i tend to be stubborn enough to need to see things for myself (and a lot of times conventional wisdom doesnt concur with my results)  I dont dispute that winch on roof will reduce roll stability, but i do believe that is easily compensated for and does not pose a very large hindrance to me personally.  If so, just unbolt and fork it onto the pallet until needed again.

Can i mount it on an arch?  Certainly, but i dont want to just yet.  Thats 2 pieces of equipment to move to my little jobs and a lot more looking backwards IMO.  If some experiences changes my mind, its not a big deal to build an arch and move it to there.  Well.. It is a big deal right now while most of my machine shop is stuck in mass.  What equipment i have here is how i earn the money to fund trips back up for more of my stuff.  I was never supposed to be a logger, or even have a dozer.  just happened that way.  Gotta make the most of it.

Thanks for all the input. I will probably stick to my guns anyway but if my plan sucks ill probably heed yours eventually so keep em coming.
Praise The Lord

teakwood

Atta boy!

i tend to be stubborn enough to need to see things for myself

:D i'm exactly the same!
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

mike_belben

Ive learned the most by screwing things up, and ive screwed up a LOT of stuff. 


If it works, ill call it the DODER.  Dozer Yoder.  Backoff Caterpillar, beat it Link-Belt, outta my way Madill!  The Doder is trademarked!
Praise The Lord

Skeans1

Skagit beat you to the punch https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qSfMEWTLCK0/hqdefault.jpg
Here's another idea
https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/10977231/1996-cat-525
Also don't forget if you decide to put the winch one top to brace the heck out of your ROPS they werent designed for that kind of pulling forces.
https://steepslopelogging.events/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/P1120327-B-846x635.jpg
Another idea is a side mount winch like this one for tethering one of the reasons towers and choker setters are becoming antiques out here.

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