iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing

Started by YellowHammer, December 27, 2016, 01:02:45 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

PA_Walnut

Another excellent write-up! I have yet to find a nice sycamore log to saw. I'm scoping around to find one, as it's great stuff when qsawn. Thanks for your time to show us "the way"!  8)
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

WDH

I have been pondering this too.  From my perspective in sycamore, if a board does not have fleck it is low value, so cutting all the wedges that are waste is not an issue.

However, I am not so sure with nice white oak.  Using the octagon method without the reverse rolling described in this technique only produces a few starting wedge cuts.  Therefore there is greater yield since you will be sawing more boards and the extra boards will be predominately rift sawn.  Rift sawn white oak is desirable and valuable, unlike with sycamore.  The trade off is that you do not get as many boards with PERFECT figure like you do with the reverse roll.  Maybe we need to do an experiment to compare the results using the octagon method to the reverse roll method.  You would need two logs that were the same size and shape.  This is the data that would be needed.

1).  BF of rift sawn lumber
2).  BF of qsawn lumber with low to moderate figure
3).  BF of qsawn lumber with medium figure
4).  BF of qsawn lumber with very good figure
5).  BF of qsawn lumber with perfect figure

By assigning values to the BF in each of the groups, you could determine the difference between the two techniques in terms of total value of lumber sawn.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

69bronco

Thanks for taking the time to share that!

YellowHammer

That's a good idea, and are right, non fleck rift sawn in oak is sellable at flat sawn prices for me, no fleck sycamore is firewood.  Maybe we have a topic for next years Sycamore Project, take a single log, split it in half and do a comparison of the sawing techniques.

I've been trying to come up with a use of the wedge cuts, and was thinking that I could make them a little thicker and turn them into leg stock, even with the sycamore.  If they would stay straight, it would be a marketable product for the waste wedges sawn into square stock. 

During my sawing yesterday, I decided to do one log using the conventional octagon method demonstrated in the video a few posts back.  About halfway through, after a couple misses in the center quarter boards with little or no fleck showing (in sycamore, unsellable boards and blown profit), and it was soooo slow, I was reminded why I hated quarter sawing.  I was ready to pull my hair out.  I was also reminded how much I disliked the guessing game about whether I was going to get fleck, especially since I got some misses.  In truth, I'm not the best octagon sawing guy, that's why I started getting away from it.     
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

delvis

We quarter saw pine for a guy twice a year, who makes his living making shaker boxes, and I'm anxious to try this method here once I get a chance to practice on some of my own stuff.  Very nice.
If I never saw another board I will at least die happy having spent the last few years working with my dad!

boardmaker

Delvis,
Does your pine have ray and fleck?  I'm not very familiar with pine since we only saw hardwood.  But if it doesn't, I don't see a benefit.

delvis

Quote from: boardmaker on October 31, 2017, 09:54:35 AM
Delvis,
Does your pine have ray and fleck?  I'm not very familiar with pine since we only saw hardwood.  But if it doesn't, I don't see a benefit.

The Shakers used quarter sawn pine traditionally because it was stronger and the grain runs straight down the board unlike flat sawn pine.  The gentleman we saw for makes his boxes in the traditional style so he uses qs pine instead of Baltic birch plywood such as is used today.  So, we quarter saw the pine at 7/16" and we flat saw maple or ash around the heart wood at 3/16".
If I never saw another board I will at least die happy having spent the last few years working with my dad!

customsawyer

I notice a couple of guys on here trying to figure out a way to waste some of my logs and use me as a lab rat.  :D
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

scsmith42


Danny, based upon more logs than I can remember milling here is your typical answer:

Octagon method of traditional quartersawing:

1).  BF of rift sawn lumber:  20% true rift (30 - 60 degree growth ring orientation)
2).  BF of qsawn lumber with low to moderate figure: 30%
3).  BF of qsawn lumber with medium figure: 20%
4).  BF of qsawn lumber with very good figure: 20%
5).  BF of qsawn lumber with perfect figure: 10%

It will depend upon the log and how straight the medullary cells run from the pith to the bark, but the above averages are pretty close.  Determining ray fleck is subjective though, so YMMV.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Brad_bb

Yellowhammer, very inspiring - Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and technique! 
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Sixacresand

Quote from: customsawyer on October 31, 2017, 11:19:58 AM
I notice a couple of guys on here trying to figure out a way to waste some of my logs and use me as a lab rat.  :D
AKA Rentz Experimental Milling Project Laboratory. 
"Sometimes you can make more hay with less equipment if you just use your head."  Tom, Forestry Forum.  Tenth year with a LT40 Woodmizer,

YellowHammer

Quote from: customsawyer on October 31, 2017, 11:19:58 AM
I notice a couple of guys on here trying to figure out a way to waste some of my logs and use me as a lab rat.  :D
Yep, Danny and I can bring the  popcorn_smiley and  smiley_beertoast

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Andries

Quote from: customsawyer on October 31, 2017, 11:19:58 AM
I notice a couple of guys on here trying to figure out a way to waste some of my logs and use me as a lab rat.  :D

Quote from: WDH on October 31, 2017, 08:03:00 AM
..... The trade off is that you do not get as many boards with PERFECT figure like you do with the reverse roll.....

With WDH and YH leading the R&D team - it might become "The Perfect Ten Project".

LT40G25
Ford 545D loader
Stihl chainsaws

dboyt

Thanks for posting!  I've got some 4' diameter sycamore just begging for the reverse roll technique.  This is one of the best (for me) threads on the forum!
Norwood MX34 Pro portable sawmill, 8N Ford, Lewis Winch

YellowHammer

Dboyt, thanks.  This technique works great for big log halves especially if taking sub wedges as I describe below.

This log was a bigger one, and was a full width between the blade guides.  It was milled as a half log, and I started by taking the big wide high fleck boards as usual.  However, when it comes time to do a rotation, especially on a big log, the wedge cuts can get pretty big and there is a risk of wasting a lot of wood, especially if in good fleck.  This is shown in the picture below, by the big black line.  This is too much wood to take off.  So I take small sub wedges to minimize waste, and get as many boards out of the wedges as I can.  I like to target a 4" minimum width on one side.  The thing to remember is that a quarter sawn high fleck board can be taken anytime the grain configuration is correct, and as the half log changes shape, the orientation can get confusing.  So marking with a Sharpie, then still keeping track of the rays will allow proper alignment even when it seems out of shape.  This is especially important when sawing a log that isn't perfectly round or has an oblong grain pattern.



Heres what it looks like when sawing in the picture below.  I marked a 4" line to help with the photo, and made the cut.  This was a forgiving log, and since the cut was reasonably perpendicular to the growth rings, even though the cut wouldn't go exactly through the axis of the log, I still got good fleck on the face of the cut.  I was able to get a 4" and 7" board from the wedge that could have been wasted.  Thats one of the nice things about this technique, no blind sawing, and its easy to stay in the fleck.  The crosshatched areas are the areas I will trim off later after the boards are dried and I run them thorough our Straight Line Rip saw to basically joint both edges prior to sale.



As the cant gets smaller, it will start to look like a pie slice.  I just keep rotating around, and get as much as I can out of it.  There is a tendency to finish too early and set one side on the bed.  If I did that on this piece, I would have too much angle on the rays and probably wouldn't get a high fleck board.  So I rotate it to optimize the fleck, and the hydraulics are strong enough to hold it stable when I get it where I want it.  If you'll look closely, you can see the cant isn't even touching the mill bed, its about an inch above all the bed rails.  In this case, even though cant was suspended between the backstops and clamp, I used the bed rails as a guide to make sure the piece is aligned with the deck.  Otherwise, a taper cut will happen from end to end, and that will throw successive boards off.



This is getting near the end, and in this case I like to catch and pinch the tip of the pie slice with the clamp face as it lets me adjust the angle very easily and securely simply by moving the clamp up or down.  Once I get to this size, there is generally quarter sawn fleck on both faces of the pie slice.  So there is no way miss fleck, its a sure thing, now its just a matter of getting as much figure as I can.  As it gets smaller, clamping becomes a little more sporty, but no problems, just keep taking boards until everything is gone.     
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

PA_Walnut

Tried this on a big white oak yesterday and was not able to really get into he fleck as I wanted to and had a LOT of waste. I have to study your postings more/better. I like the plan, just need to learn the game, I suppose. I took some pix that I'll post.
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

WDH

Scott, that is great information.

I have not been charging for the degree of fleck in QS white oak.  The price is x and the customers pick out what they want. The lower degree of fleck and the higher degree of fleck go at the same price.  It works out, but maybe I need to to price the perfect figure boards at a premium to the average fleck boards.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

scsmith42

Quote from: PA_Walnut on November 01, 2017, 11:45:52 AM
Tried this on a big white oak yesterday and was not able to really get into he fleck as I wanted to and had a LOT of waste. I have to study your postings more/better. I like the plan, just need to learn the game, I suppose. I took some pix that I'll post.

Seek out the medullary lines on the end of the log first and mark them as Robert did in his photo's.  Also be sure that your pith is centered above the deck on each end of the log.

Mill to intersect the lines you marked on the log or parallel to them.  You should end up with outstanding fleck.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

scsmith42

Quote from: WDH on November 01, 2017, 03:51:14 PM
Scott, that is great information.

I have not been charging for the degree of fleck in QS white oak.  The price is x and the customers pick out what they want. The lower degree of fleck and the higher degree of fleck go at the same price.  It works out, but maybe I need to to price the perfect figure boards at a premium to the average fleck boards.

Danny, what I've found is that if you don't differentiate prices, your local customers will sort through the stack and pick out the very best boards and frequently choose the very widest boards.  Then when all you have left is low fleck narrow boards the customers that legitimately wanted high fleck will be disappointed and you'll get a bad rep.  Or you will lose a sale because you were out of high fleck product.  Plus you're leaving $ on the table.

A small percentage of your customer base (say 5%) will want your very best lumber, and they are willing to pay a premium for it.  So let's call these boards "Danny's select QSWO".  You should be able to charge a 15% premium over your regular high fleck for these "hand selected, highest fleck" boards.  Think about log-matched product too.  We have not yet started charging a premium for log matched lumber but it's a big selling point for us.  At some point in the future we will probably start keeping inventory of log matched lumber.

Pricing high fleck 10% - 20% above medium fleck discourages people from grabbing your high fleck boards when they don't really need them (think skirts for tables, seat slats, back sides of cabinets, etc). 

Once the lumber comes out of the kiln, we separate it into high fleck, low/medium fleck, and rift in our inventory room.  It's also separated based upon width (I store the boards vertically which makes it easier to review figure) but some is also stored in bulk.

Pricing wide boards at a premium (we charge more per bd ft in 2" increments for lumber wider than 8") prevents someone from purchasing a 12" wide QS board only to rip it into 2" strips.  I charge twice as much per board foot for a 12" QSWO High fleck board as I do for a 6" board with similar figure.  And why not - it's a rare product and the folks that truly want wide QS will not hesitate to pay for it (think cabinet case sides, table leafs, and single panels for frame and panel doors).  And some guy with a 6" jointer won't be tempted to rip a 12" wide board into narrow strips just because he is trying to end up with a little less waste.  A 12" qs board requires a log at least 30" or so in diameter (after you cut out the sap and pith wood).  These logs are rare, are harder on your equipment and more time consuming to mill.  So you should demand a premium for the product that they produce.

My 2 cents.

Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

YellowHammer

Quote from: scsmith42 on November 01, 2017, 04:35:35 PM
Quote from: PA_Walnut on November 01, 2017, 11:45:52 AM
Tried this on a big white oak yesterday and was not able to really get into he fleck as I wanted to and had a LOT of waste. I have to study your postings more/better. I like the plan, just need to learn the game, I suppose. I took some pix that I'll post.

Seek out the medullary lines on the end of the log first and mark them as Robert did in his photo's.  Also be sure that your pith is centered above the deck on each end of the log.

Mill to intersect the lines you marked on the log or parallel to them.  You should end up with outstanding fleck.

Centering pith is something I haven't talked about much but it is a necessary step in any quartersawing process, and the more accurate the alignment, the better the figure.  As done in a conventional QS technique, the first two opening 90° face cuts are made using a tape to measure off the bed to the center of the pith.  This is really an indirect measurement, I.e. measure from the bottom of the log to the pith so that the cut on the top of the log is correct.  Sometimes this is not always accurate.  Generally it's OK, but pith does funny things.  So I'll cut the first 90° faces as accurately as possible measuring from the deck and and then as soon as I cut each, I will double check by taking a direct measurement from the actual cut to the pith on both ends.  If I'm off any appreciable amount I will make a slight adjustment with the toeboards and skim it right before I rotate.  Once I have two dead on faces, then I don't have to use the tape measure anymore, and will use these faces as references for the opposite ones, as well as an gun barrelling or octagon cutting.  It's very important to keep these octagon faces and edges very straight and aligned with the pith and reference faces.  Since the log halfs are rotated and will be supported on the octagon faces and edges, the boards will take on any misalignment and fleck will suffer.

So when I make my first reference cuts, and double check them for accuracy, I will generally mark the most accurate pith to edge face with the Sharpie and that is the one I will place against the bed to make the first cuts to split the log.  Here's a picture of a log I milled today, and you can see the horizontal Sharpie face line I used to indicate the most accurately sawn face so it doesn't get lost in the gun barreling process and I know to rotate it to the bed for the first cuts.  Also, notice how off center the pith is on this log.   



Once I have rotated that marked face to the bed, I will split the log, taking a couple boards above and below, and these should have good fleck on at least on face.  If not, there is a problem.  Generally, these look good and it's time to turn and burn. 

All this take lots of words to describe but in reality it goes pretty fast and is the same steps that that are taken even if using the octagon method.   
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

WDH

Scott,

I am charging a width premium on all lumber, not just QSWO.  I am going to start sorting by fleck as you suggest. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

PA_Walnut

Well, so much for my posting the pix of the sawing of white oak, as I suggested...it's rather ominous that my iPhone6 begun to seriously fail as soon as the 8 and X iPhones were announced.  >:( :snowball:

I have some other REALLY big oaks to saw, so want to get this nailed. I will use my regular camera and take some pix of the process again.  :-\

One oak I just got in was about 39" on the small end, so want to be sure to do it justice! There was a little metal in the upper that you can see on the end. Hopefully, the stain doesn't go too far. :(  Ends are anchor-sealed now to minimize degrade, but I'll slice that off when getting to the saw, so I can see the rings, grain orientation, etc.


I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

YellowHammer

Looking at the bottom picture of your butt log, that one may be tricky.  The growth rings at the sapwood/heartwood interface are very erratic and change directions a lot, and also I can see the rays are moving a lot.  The more round and predictable the growth rings the more predictable the rays and so the fleck.  Also, it have a very indistinct and confused pith, with one major pith split and another smaller one I'd guess an inch or two to the right.  Oddly, sometimes these types of logs provide great fleck because they have rays are all over the place.

When taking the center pith boards it will be very important to read them on this log (all logs really) as its not unusual to get distinctively different fleck from one side of the board to another, indicating that the log will be unforgiving and that being off just a little on the following rotations will compromise fleck.  This also lets me read the boards and tells you how to get the best fleck.  If all faces have great fleck, then it means the log can be forgiving and I can be a lot more off angle and still gets good fleck.  Less rotations, less wedge cuts, less waste.  I also look to see if the fleck runs down the length of the board, or if it appear and disappears, or if is evenly distributed across the width of the board or more prevalent on the edges of the board.  Generally, once I read these pith boards, it's time to turn and burn.

Since I'm going for high fleck boards, and certainly fleck on one face of every board, its important get a feel for the log, and know when I'm about to get into fleck and more importantly, when I'm about to get out of it.  Its a very visual process, but since it is, feedback is instant and thats what I like about it.

One thing I would suggest is putting a lower value log or two on the mill and getting a feel for the technique, allowing a little more experimentation without the operator stress.  Also, after every board, anticipate how to get better fleck on the next, and make adjustments if required.  If its a low value log, then skim cuts and adjustments to chase fleck are less painful.  I remember the first couple logs I started with, I cut them up pretty aggressively, chasing fleck like a hound chasing a rabbit, until I got the hang of it.  The goal is to get fleck on at least one face of every board, zero misses.  However, if there is a miss, its important to get a feel what adjustments to make. 

However, it all starts with getting good fleck on the pith boards.

Once it clicks, then you'll be amazed how easy it is.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

PA_Walnut

Thanks much for your investment in explaining this! It looked so easy on your postings that even a caveman could do it!  :D

Yet, I was chasing it HARD when sawing a big white oak the other day and didn't reward me much at all, other than the joy of pushing the top cut off which slide RIGHT INTO the loader arms! SWEET!  8)

I'm gonna go now and snap a few pix of the resultant boards and post so you can see.

Yesterday I was shuffling my log pile around and put aside some nicer red oak 8' shorts, larger enough to quarter and will play with them. I also have some big poplars that I want to quarter...not for fleck, but people sure like them for secondary woods, like drawer bottoms.
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

tburch

YH, thanks for posting this.   I gave this a try yesterday.  I'm not so new to milling, as I've been using a swing blade for a couple years, but I am fairly new to milling with a band mill - I picked up a used Cook AC36 a couple months ago.  I've only cut a half dozen logs so far. 

I got a 14-15" post oak loaded up and was successful in getting it skinned, and then I cut it in half - great figure, obviously.  But then I stalled in my endeavor and ended up getting sidetracked on other interruptions. 

I see an advantage you Woodmizer guys would have in this technique, versus me, who has a Cooks.   A Cooks has the loader on the right, as the Woodmizer does, but the log stops (Cooks calls them squaring arms) are on the right and the log clamps (y'all have been calling them two plane clamps) are on my left.  So, when I load a log onto the bed, the log clamps actually do the stopping of the rolling movement of the log, and then the clamps (or log turner) can be used to push the log back to the right against the squaring arms.  The blade of the Cooks also runs the same direction as the Woodmizer, so on the Cooks, the hydraulic log clamps are always getting the brunt of the force from the blade going through the log. 

So, that's the big difference - clamping is backwards.    So, I'm situated on the right side of the log, and the moving clamps are on the left side (AKA "the dark side of the log", if you will).  While I worked the controls and attempted to learn how to roll the log, I could not see the clamps.  I don't have a visual for the location (or height) of the clamps because the log is blocking my view, and I was continually having to move around or lean over the bed to see what was happening.   A bit of a time consumer.   And, of course, I'm still getting the feel for all the controls.   And... (yet another excuse...) my log clamps don't seem to be getting full power from the hydraulic system, so that's a bug I am working on with Cooks service right now.   Right now, since my clamps don't have full power, I have to use the chain log turner to move the log against the squaring arms and I'm still working it like a bull in a china shop.  I believe I will need full power to the clamps in order to roll the log/cant, since it will be the clamps that the log will have to roll on.  I think I might even have to make some new caps for my clamps, as they are designed to bite into the log, and not be slippy slidy so the log can slide on them.   Or, can the round side (outer edge) of the log be against my squaring arms?  I guess they could, since most of the weight will always be under the blade. 

Anyway, I'm looking forward to gaining experience with this technique.  Thanks for the time you (and others) have spent documenting the process. 
Peterson 10" WPF with slabber. Cooks AC36 Diesel.
'94 Ford 4830 Diesel 2WD & FEL.  Norse 450 skid winch.  Logrite fetching arch.  Fransgard Forestry Grapple.

Thank You Sponsors!