iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Rough Sawn Lumber for Inhabited Buildings

Started by YellowHammer, August 02, 2013, 11:04:01 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

YellowHammer

I had a friend of mine, who owns a sawmill, use his rough sawn lumber for his dream house of 5,600 square feet.  He did much of the framing and construction himself, but then ran into all kinds of inspection issues.  These problems mainly revolved around the fact that his rough sawn dimensional lumber wasn't inspected, stamped and approved so was unsuitable for use in an inhabited building, and the county inspection department wouldn't sign off on his house.
They would not close out his final checklist unless his rough sawn was approved for use by a certified lumber inspector.  He could not get his Certificate of Occupancy. 
Eventually they called somebody in who personally inspected and approved his lumber so he was able to pass all his inspections and move into his house, but it was a battle.

Has anybody else run into this issue when sawing dimensional lumber for inhabited buildings?  Do you sawyers who sell your dimensional lumber get it certified and inspected?

I know very little about this process and feel like I need to start researching it in depth.
YH

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

beenthere

There are those inspectors that can be a total pain and they are very enamoured with their title of "final" inspector. They have power and they aim to let others know that they have that power. Unfortunate, but true. Similar to these special judges that can hold up the work of many just because they have the "power".

My son ran into this similar problem trying to meet a loan closure deadline and get final inspection of his home. It was finished according to the inspector who he'd been working with for a good year. But that inspector retired and the new inspector was out to show his stuff. Said the garage floor had to be poured, and it was frozen solid. The inspector said he might drip some oil on the dirt from his car, so it had to be poured before final permit. Long story short, he had to get a 6 mo. extension on his construction loan so the floor could be poured in the summer. Big expense, and like his vehicle had to set outside and was ok if it dripped oil out there.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

woodmills1

New Hampshire, and I think new york have short forms and classes for grading rough cut #2 construction lumber

I know that the new hampshire program is lapsed due to budget cuts for recertification.  I took the training and have a number and form to certify lumber that by law must be accepted by building inspectors.

this whole issue is driven by liability issues
If a building fails the buck will get passed
grading takes the inspectors off the hook for actual material failure
but between you and me I thing design, or build issues are more likely to fail
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Peter Drouin

I have a grade license and use it from time to time. I just make sure when I'm cutting the logs when I open one up if the grade is not there it gets cut into 1" :)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

barbender

 It depends on where you're at- in the county where I live, the only inspections that are required are electrical and septic systems. I used some rough cut, ungraded in our house. I could have used all rough cut if I wanted to. You need to know what codes you are subject to. Another thing, I don't care how true you saw out your lumber, it all dries different and when you are trying to hang drywall and that sort of stuff, it can be a real pain dealing with rough cut. I had a lot of 2x6 lumber I had sawn and was going to get planed, but construction lumber had bottomed out, 2x6 studs were about $2.00 a piece at the time so I just bought them.
Too many irons in the fire

Qweaver

I am so glad that I live in a state and county where codes and inspections are not an issue.  Just new electric installs, wells and septic.  They don't even come out to inspect the wells...just take your money.  Check first I guess.
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

drobertson

Laws are laws, and codes are codes, if you live where it is required then it is a necessary evil, no getting around it without the battles, on the other hand think of someone building from junk lumber then selling it to an unsuspecting buyer, once it's covered its hard to see the quality or lack there of,   david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

hardtailjohn

Quote from: beenthere on August 02, 2013, 11:18:34 PM
The inspector said he might drip some oil on the dirt from his car

And just where do they think the oil came from in the first place??!!  I've never understood that one...we pull it from the ground, clean it up and then it's hazardous? 

We're fortunate enough to be in a place here, that has only inspections for electric and septic also... although they require a pump be installed in the septic... my guess is someone's brother or something like that sells pumps....   :snowball:
I'm so far behind, I think I'm ahead!

thecfarm

Probably 13 years ago when we had the house built I could've used ungraded lumber on my house. But now.  ::) Need a permit for ANY structure. Be it a greenhouse or just a roof over a picnic table. She has really gone over board on her job. I only had to go get a $25 dollars build permit,did not need a plan for the house,did have to get an inspector for the septic.
Like I say "in my little world" The wife makes jam,jelly,bake goods. We need the well water tested each year. The kitchen had to be inpected too. Too bad to get those involved,but there are places that sell the same stuff as we do,with no lincese or inspection that I would not buy from.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Quebecnewf

There are lots of very funny things about lumber inspection and grades as well. I saw and sell a bit of lumber as a hobby (passion).

I also buy wholesale lumber (dressed and inspected) and then retail the same.

I have seen lifts of 2x6x8 Graded SPF 1&2 KD that were mostly rotton and wane. Called the supplier and sent photos got my money back but if that same lumber was delivered to a construction sit i am sure it would have been nailed into the building the same as the rest. Rotton lumber but it had the grade stamp..

If i order 1" lumber dressed the grade is usually #3 and better. What they call number 3 we call rotton. Needless to say I don't buy much 1" lumber. I can't sell it to my customers . They know rotten lumber when they see it.

Good lumber is good lumber . Rotten lumber graded and stamped something else is still rotten.  The stamp means nothing. Let your eyes and your brain judge.

Quebecnewf

YellowHammer

I appreciate the info.  I guess I need to take a trip down to the courthouse and find out what the rules are around here.  Seems like I should at least be familiar with the regulations. 

YH
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

WDH

It varies area to area and even county to county.  Ungraded lumber is not allowed in my county. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

nk14zp

Quote from: YellowHammer on August 03, 2013, 10:16:00 PM
I appreciate the info.  I guess I need to take a trip down to the courthouse and find out what the rules are around here.  Seems like I should at least be familiar with the regulations. 

YH
Na don't bother,  I'll just come over and take that mill off your hands before it lands you in trouble. ;D
Belsaw 36/18 duplex mill.
Belsaw 802 edger.
http://belsawsawmills.freeforums.org/

shortlogger

I guess I'm just stubborn but the idea of someone telling me what materials I can or can't use for my own home just eats me up , if I want to build a house out of bad boards and it falls on me that's my choice I am responsabile for my own actions . I can understand having buildings inspected if they are being built by a contractor for someone else to live in . Fortunately where I live the only persons ok I need when i built my home was my wife's .
1 Corinthians 3:7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase . "NKJV"

Jemclimber

Quote from: shortlogger on August 06, 2013, 04:33:54 AM
I guess I'm just stubborn but the idea of someone telling me what materials I can or can't use for my own home just eats me up , .

That someone is our government, and I agree.  Our government also tells you what you must and mustn't  put into and onto your body.   A topic for a different thread.  ::)
lt15

pri0ritize

There is a reason why the government has an interest in ensuring a house is built to a minimum standard. The likelihood that you live in the house you build for yourself until it falls down around you is very slim. It is very likely that the house you build will be sold at some point in it's existence and a minimum standard is good for everyone.

I had the same thoughts as well when I started applying for permits, but then I saw the earthquake in Haiti and realized if that earthquake had happened in a place with strong building codes very few people would have died.

2012 LT40HD
Random Stihl Chainsaws and more woodworking equipment than I care to inventory!

rasorbackQ

 In my county Graded lumber must be used for structural framing But boarding in can be uninspected lumber.
I just built a steel arched building and milled the front wall at home.  He said that he would not pass it . I reminded him of our conversation ref structural framing and these building do not require a front on them to operate. He agreed and signed off on it.
I checked out about how to get the grader license last year .  Course is about $500 and a week in hotel 6 hrs away Then the annual fee of $300  to upkeep the title. Forget it.......
Thanks for reading, Steven

Peter Drouin

We have houses and barns that are 100s of years old in NH and still standing.
And if you saw the way they're put together you would laugh at the new codes
All over built now and made with wood that's glued together.
how long will the glue last? Look at the osb plywood it gets wet and falls apart :D
the LvLs beems, the heat get to it and falls apart
you see the new I beam for floor joist osb with finger joint 2x3 put to gether all glue :D :D

I spent 10 years on the fire department and house fires where hard . but today you have to think will the glue hold :D :D :D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

bozzaa69

Just tell any people nosing around, to get off your property, their trespassing! This is America still, isn't it? People seem to forget that these days and let these unconstitutional gov't bureaucracies push them around. Don't let them push you around. Build it and live there. Keep it simple,don't play their games.

Magicman

The great majority of my sawing is framing lumber.  I am careful to advise the customer that:

a)  The construction/architectural drawings must specify #2 and/or rough sawn lumber.

b)  The lending institution, builder, insurance agency, & the county/municipal permit/inspectors must all sign off on the fact that ungraded framing lumber is being used.

Each of the above items must be addressed before any construction begins.  We have counties and cities that will not allow ungraded framing lumber under any circumstances.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

bodagocreek2

I can understand using graded lumber for framing, but where does full log home/cabin come into play?

bozzaa69

Your best bet is not to go to the town and ask any questions. I've seen people do that and screw themselves. You go there and then they know what your looking to do and start watching you. Just do your thing and tell them to "beat it" after the fact. You reserve that right as an American! And don't think otherwise! Especially I would think more in the deep south where Magicman is at. Give me a break with all those rules dude? Tell em to "BEAT IT ON DOWN THE ROAD!!!!!!!!!!!!! Come back with a warrant if you want to come on my property."  They'll go away.

WDH

You cannot get your power hooked up if you do not play by the rules. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

grweldon

In my state/county, all you have to do is get a septic system in and they will bring in power.  I used an outdoor load center on 16' 6x6 and had to install a meter base.  The power company ran the feed to the box.  The load center had pass-through lugs at the bottom and I ran my own cable underground to another load center in the house.

Of course there are no inspections required but I would suggest for anyone's own safety, if you can't wire your house up to IEC standards, you hire somebody.  There ARE reasons for codes and they aren't bad reasons...
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

ely

no inspections or laws here that I am aware of ;D, but then I didn't care enough to ask.... so far I have done the entirety of the work myself except for a little tile work.

schakey

On our property in Wv all we need is a building,well and septic permit. The only thing they inspect is the septic and location of the well.
The building permit is only for taxes.
Think-Dream-Plan-Do

EZland

Do the timber frame guys have to get their beams inspected?  Or log frame houses?   This grade and stamp thing seems like it is meant to keep the little sawmill out of the 2 by business with lowes and home depot. 

My house was built in 1937.  There is rough saw timber all over it. So if I try to match the lumber in remodeling I can't use rough sawn.  I have a manual mill, but keep getting hit up by folks to saw full size 2x4s for them to match their original framing, but they are afraid once the inspector comes in for electical and plumbing they will fail seeing the rough sawn. 

   I live in GA how do you get qualified to inspect lumber?  That could be a whole business, inspecting lumber for the portable sawmill business. 

Just my thoughts in a nut shell.  Love to your thoughts...
EZ Boardwalk Jr. 30", Husky 455, Kioti 5010 w, FEL , And I just moved to Ohio.and still looking for logs.

God is great!  I will never be as good as the "Carpenter's Son"

Magicman

Just pay attention to my Reply #19.  If you are getting financing, insurance, or permits, the construction materials have to match the specifications on the architectural drawings.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

balsabones

If I were building a house and was ready for the inspector, wouldn't he only look at the electrical panel box and septic tank and drain field or sewer tie in? I wouldn't think he would want me to tear out a piece of finished drywall to see what kind of 2X4 I used.
Moving ahead so life don't pass me by

Magicman

Inspections are normally made at different construction stages.  Construction is stopped and the inspections are made before work resumes.  The framing is inspected before it is covered up and builders are very aware of these requirements.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

beenthere

Balsabones
If you want to hear some horror stories about inspectors, there are plenty. And if you skip some of their "stages", then they can get real nasty and bothersome. Just telling them to "hit the road, jack" won't smooth their feathers any either.

One contractor, I believe was in IL, built many tract homes...all with grade-stamped joists. Problem was he trimmed all of them back in length (for some reason) and trimmed off the end with the grade stamp. So two things, the grade is for the whole piece, not for a part of that whole piece. Second, no stamp meant no grade, and the grading agency wouldn't grade just seeing two faces and one edge. So things can get real sticky when nobody wants to bend their 'rules'.

Enjoy the areas you're in that haven't moved up to having a building inspection during construction, as there are a lot of hurdles to jump, one after another.


south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Magicman

There are counties and municipalities, etc. where I simply can not saw framing lumber because it can not be used without being graded.  Thankfully the majority of my sawing area does not have these restrictions.

My next three large sawing jobs are for sawing framing lumber for new homes.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

bozzaa69

 I don't want to come across as a troll or beat a dead horse,but I firmly believe in this. If your building for your own "domicile" you can get away without their games. Domicile is a good word to use and works.You have to study into it a little bit and use your rights as an American. Contractor's etc. have to play by their rules if their building houses in developments for other people's use and what not, or if your looking for financing you have to go by their rules to get the money. But allot of us sawing our own lumber are in it to do it ourselves and not get financing, then you can tell them to travel off down the road.  If you are building for your own use and use some of the correct wording in a certain way so you sound like you know what your talking about, they have to beat it. I've told em to beat it off of my property and customer's properties many,many times, with the customers backing. You have to coach the customers what to say also. Sometime customers get nervous,but to keep cost down on their job, they are usually more than willing to rebel a little. I've done this over septic permits, building permits,fire permits,wetlands,etc. over the years. They all went away. They threatened me with court action a couple times,but I called their bluff and they went away. This experience covers  Building Inspectors, wetlands activists, watershed association's, lake association's, fire chiefs and board of firewards, road agents, upset neighbors of my properties and customers,etc. Police have been called at times because these so called building and/or wetland authorities have gotten so mad at me. I've even told these people to call 911 when they threaten me with police. A couple have called 911 and they got in trouble for misuse of the emergency #. Police don't want to be bothered by somebody trying to improve thier property and these building inspector's or wetlands, tree hugger's butting into it. Police take off quick once they see it's all balogna. I've got the balogna from the gamit over the years. Know what to say and say bye,bye. People have to say no to big gov't and start taking their rights back. By the way, anybody looking for any excavation,land clearing,concrete or construction work? It's a little slow right now.

shortlogger

I deffanatly belive the Gov local and federal often pry way too far into people's personal busisness ..... I totally understand inspections on contractor work for the purpose of protecting a future home owner who doesn't know a stud from a rafter from getting a poorly built home when they are paying for it to be done right .... BUT if its my land my money and my materials I feel as a free citizen of the USA I should be able to build and live in anything I want !!!! The government is trying to inject its opinion and or will into every aspect of our private lives . Don't get me wrong I'm not anti government I belive it has its place but way to often I see it over stepping its bounds . 
1 Corinthians 3:7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase . "NKJV"

Jemclimber

The Gov has to know what you've built on their land so it can adjust your rent accordingly.  Building inspectors and tax assessors are just part of the process of building. 
lt15

grweldon

Quote from: bozzaa69 on August 07, 2013, 09:56:30 PM
. By the way, anybody looking for any excavation,land clearing,concrete or construction work? It's a little slow right now.

Would be nice to know where you are located.  Might want to update your profile...
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

beenthere

gr
If his map is correct in his profile, then he is just west of Manchester, NH
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

grweldon

I don't bother with all that, I just look for the location on the LH margin... Thanks...
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

m wood

Quote from: EZland on August 07, 2013, 10:08:53 AM
Do the timber frame guys have to get their beams inspected?  Or log frame houses? 




I planned a 32 x 32 log home out of Spruce from my own land.  The architect got me in touch with the county engineer cuz my logs would need stamped.  Everyone was real iffy about the process.  The engineer had no idea about the load bearing or stress calculations of a log.  He was gonna do the same research as I had already done...then charge me.  I saw so many puzzled looks from town code enforcement, county engineers, architects etc. that I saw it as a sign of things to come and ditched the plan before I sunk another cent into it. 

Now I am using those culled and girded spruce logs to build chicken coops and hunting blinds at a few hundred a pop.  The plan is for me and my wife is to pay cash to build a smaller "empty nester" cottage on our land in about 5 years.  I will buy stamped structural lumber from the Orange store and It'll still be our dream home.   
I am Mark
80 acre woodlot lots of hard and soft
modified nissan 4x4/welding rig
4x4 dodge plow truck
cat 931b track loader
Norwood mark IV
4' peavy
6' peavy
stihl 034
"her" wildthing limber saw
ALL the rustic furniture  woodworking stuff
check out FB

schakey

Quote from: m wood on August 10, 2013, 05:56:16 AM
Quote from: EZland on August 07, 2013, 10:08:53 AM
Do the timber frame guys have to get their beams inspected?  Or log frame houses? 




I planned a 32 x 32 log home out of Spruce from my own land.  The architect got me in touch with the county engineer cuz my logs would need stamped.  Everyone was real iffy about the process.  The engineer had no idea about the load bearing or stress calculations of a log.  He was gonna do the same research as I had already done...then charge me.  I saw so many puzzled looks from town code enforcement, county engineers, architects etc. that I saw it as a sign of things to come and ditched the plan before I sunk another cent into it. 

Now I am using those culled and girded spruce logs to build chicken coops and hunting blinds at a few hundred a pop.  The plan is for me and my wife is to pay cash to build a smaller "empty nester" cottage on our land in about 5 years.  I will buy stamped structural lumber from the Orange store and It'll still be our dream home.
It's a shame that people who don't know controls the people that do!
Think-Dream-Plan-Do

bozzaa69

It's like when I built my first garage. 24x24 with a 12 pitch roof for attic space. I looked at a co-worker at the time's garage which was similar to what I wanted to build. I was young and green. It had a 10x19 steel beam to span the 24' to support the attic floor. 10-19 means 10'' I beam at 19 lbs per foot. The width of the flange and thickness of web, is what it is for a 10-19,which is 4'' on the flange and 1/4'' thick on the web. Next bigger size,10-24 lbs per foot, flange is wider,web is thicker etc. The local building inspector at the time I submitted my plan wanted a load stamp or something or other. The beam I bought didn't have any. I asked him for some load ratings for different sizes of steel and he looked at me like I was an alien. I have an old book myself from the forties that has all different sizes of steel and load ratings, 10-19 included that I got from the dump. It covers bridge and ship building also. He had no clue about any of it. I would think he'd have access to a modern version of a book like that due to his job and all. This was before the computer age. Total incompetence on every question I asked. It's been my experience throughout life that people were usually dumber the higher up the ladder you go, as with my workplace at the time. He was right inline with that assumption. I told him "whatever" and built it my way anyway. He came to my property a couple years later to try and snoop around because I had never called him back for any inspections. I was nice and let him in. By then electrical was done in the garage/shop and it was sheetrocked. The beam still being exposed caught his attention. He asked about the load rating. I reminded him how I asked him about it 2 years earlier and how he had no clue. I asked him if he still couldn't find the information. He said that's not up to him. I told him if he's concerned he can go look at my co-workers garage 40 miles away and see how it's done elsewhere if he has no other source of info. Then I told him it was time for him to go. He went and I never saw him for another 3 years till he came back complaining about something else unrelated. (which is another story) I told him "time to go" again. He went. I always try to be nice about it, but stand my ground.

shortlogger

 It's a shame that people who don't know controls the people that do!
....................................................

I think the real shame is that we quietly set back and allow such things as that to happen !!!!
1 Corinthians 3:7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase . "NKJV"

Thank You Sponsors!