Controlling kick out in dense stands

[PlicketyCat]

I am just a lowly firewood feller so far; but I'm trying to get better in order to cut my building timbers. I hope you all forgive me if this sounds like a no-brainer question.

Our property is densely forested. I was logged, maybe 100 years ago and burned out by forest fire about 40 years ago.  We do have some really nice stands of decent timber (mostly spruce), but they all seem to be in dense clumps surrounded by even denser saplings. Not the easiest working conditions. I can clear out the saplings to get at the stands, but I'm still running into problems with the larger trees getting hung up on each other and the butt kicking out right as the hinge breaks. Even though I've managed to dodge the suckers so far, they're still a major PITA to yank out. Some of these trees won't even yank out and almost seem to have braided limbs with their neighbors. (Not to many widow makers with spruce, thank God! But the birch did try to kill me.)

Back in my younger days, under the supervision of a proper professional who had all the good safety kit, I would have shinnied up the tree(s) in question and limbed or topped them so they could drop unhindered. For some reason, hubby doesn't want me to do the Monkey-Girl thing out here in the bush 20 miles from the nearest phone and Med-Evac landing site. He doesn't even like to see me with the chainsaw, period. (Go figure)

If I switch positions so that the first tree can fall into the now sapling-less cleared trail, then I'm sawing with my back snugly against another tree with no clear line of escape.

I have considered tying off a cable up the tree some, cutting the wedge, and then winching it down. But that still means I have to go up the tree to set the cable.  And I'm not allowed to be Monkey-Girl.

How would you all solve this problem? I'm sure there is something obvious that I'm overlooking. (Yes, I've considered marrying a man who doesn't mind that his wife climbs up big trees with a chainsaw, but I don't really think that's a viable option ;))

[beenthere]

With the right face cut, the hinge shouldn't "break out" until the tree is mostly down.

What is your cutting sequence?

Do you face cut, then bore cut to prepare the hinge and leave holding wood, set two wedges, and then backcut to release the tree?  In general, that will help the most controlling the fall and giving time to prepare "escape". But nearly every tree felled has its own particulars that need consideration, but in general being in control is important. With some trees, just making the face cut and then back-cutting works just fine.

[maple flats]

Also, if your face cut is not wide enough it will break the hinge. Cut the face cut much wider, leaving a 90 degree or slightly wider opening. This will keep the hinge in control until it is on the ground. Once on the ground limb it to make it easier to pull out. When limbing be careful of limbs under pressure, they can kick into you when released or push the saw into you. Be sure you are wearing the proper safety equipment, IE helmet, chaps, eye and ear protection at the least and be sure the saw brake works properly. Every time you fell a tree you must have 2 escape routes. not straight back but about 45 degrees back for each route. Also, you should never cut alone, even if the watcher can only summon help. I would suggest you take the chainsaw training courses Game of Logging  1 and 2. That will give you all of the training you need and help you retire to your new building in good health rather than in a wheel chair or worse.
Good luck!

[PlicketyCat]

I make the face cut first and then the back cut. I've only had to bore cut and use wedges a couple of times as the majority of trees we've been cutting aren't very large in diameter (less than 2') although they are tall (typical of AK); but I might try that in those dense stands and see if it helps.  I think I may be making my face cuts too narrow, and will also try widening those and see if that doesn't eliminate the hinge breaking out.  When I can get that under control with the smaller timber on the outside edges, I'll tackle some of the larger ones.

Safety gear - check! Spotter - check! 2+ escape routes out of fall line - check! I worked with a landscape arborist for a few summers back in the day, and he was a real stickler for safety. I'll still pick up those training courses, can't ever have enough resources and reminders

[zopi]

if I am worried about kick out (barberchair) I will cut my face cut with the top cut horizontal, and the bottom cut angled up to it, then my back cut will angle down towards the face cut...leaving a fat hinge..even if the tree hangs it is less likely to kick back because the ledge left by the hinge keeps the trunk from levering back...

I do a little climbing work..almost had 800 lbs of maple blow back in my lap while tied in to the tree the other day...stupid wind.

[Ianab]

Have you thought about setting a rope using a throw rope or catapult with a bean bag? You just need to get a light rope over a branch a usefull distance up, then use that to feed up your heavier rope.

One problem with those dense stands is the way the branches interlock. You can make your cuts perfectly but the tree barely moves and never builds up enough momentum to break free.

Having a rope set in the tree at least gives you an option to get it moving, from a safe distance.

That combined with an open face notch and leaving a decent hinge (10%) should let the hinge stay intact untill the tree is almost on the ground. You set up the felling cuts, the tree shoulcn't actually move, and you retreat and haul it down. Reduces the risk of pulling widow makers down on yourself too.

Ian

[PlicketyCat]

Good suggestions. I'll try the upside down notch next time, too.  Might see if I can modify my CO2 pistol to fire a grapple into the canopy, I'd need to be a Major League pitcher to get a beanie through some of those stands! But I do prefer to hinge and then winch down bigger trees from a safe distance and location when I can.

Hmmm... I wonder if my ex still has his speargun and would be willing to mail it up here for me since he doesn't dive anymore ;) I'm sure I could modify that into a Tree Ballista fairly easily by jacking up the pressure.

[Kevin]

Use a humboldt notch and leave an inch to an inch and a half of stump shot.
When they get hung up look and see what will help free them.
Sometimes you can cut one side of the hinge and the tree will roll out.
Sometimes you can get a long logrite cant hook on them and roll them out.
Sometimes you need to set a line from the ground and pull them out.
Sometimes you can put a log arch on them and winch the arch ahead causing the tree to fall.

[Kevin]

... sometimes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzHRqDVPxsU

[simonmeridew]

If you have a winch available, hook a snatch block beyond the tree you're felling and park the tractor a safe distance away; cut the notch etc,  then do a reasonable back cut, then pull the tree down with reasonable speed with the winch. This will give the tree increased momentum as it's falling and will break through limbs etc that would normally stop the downward falling. Once you get the tree beyond  "over center", you can then pull the butt towards you and it will go all the way down.
You might also try to plan ahead and fell the furthest trees first, leaving an opening into which the next tree can be coaxed to fall. Usually.
simonmeridew

[PlicketyCat]

Great video.  I've done that on the ones that aren't too hung up, but I hate sawing in a cluster that's all bound up together... you just never know what they're going to do when there's 3 or 4 all wrapped up in each other. We had an aspen crack midway up when it started to sway while sawing, dropped the spruce it was holding about a foot from me... sure wasn't supposed to go down that way!!  Had a catapult moment in a wind fall as well, relieved just enough pressure on the big tree at the bottom that it flung the one I was sawing up about 3 feet... yikes!

Winching might be our best option with the bigger trees in those dense clusters. Safer and better control if we can get 'em tied off safely.

[zopi]

Forget the spear gun...go to baileys or sherrill tree or somesuch and look uder throwline gear, and look for a Big Shot...big honkin' slingshot...designed to get throwlines into a tree, and great for feeding the mother in law from across the yard. pulled a branch away from a house the other day, by heaving a throwline, pulling up a bullrope, slipping a loop on it and pulling..easy.

one good thing about where y'all live..you aren't bothered much by mildew or kinfolks...

[PlicketyCat]

Big Shot and throwline gear... I'm on it   Slingshots are keeewl.

Nope, no mildew or kinfolk. My folks are in TX and would probably freeze up here even in the summer. His folks are in the UK and would lose it because you have to carry a gun with you anytime you're outside

[zopi]

heh..thing will throw a tennis ball for the pup too...No unitaskers!

[PlicketyCat]

And probably take down a few spruce hens and ptarmigan if my little 22 isn't handy. *boooof* and then just follow the feathers!

I agree, uni-taskers on a bush homestead are more trouble than they're worth sometimes! 

[zopi]

Hmm..I have a book you would enjoy...The Crossbow, by Ralph Payne Galwey...also has a treatise on seige engines...maybe you could build a treb and launch your firewood out of the bush...

[PlicketyCat]

or fling cows!  "Go away you silly English person or I shall have to taunt you a second time!"

maybe we'll just build a Trojan Rabbit and confuse our neighbors

(yes, I am a geek, and love me some Monty Python)

[ljmathias]

Surprise, surprise!  We started The Holy Grail last night (for the umpteenth time) but didn't have enough time to finish it- still one of my favorites.  Warmer here today, though- 70F, so I was trimming out the end of the new house and getting ready to start that side with siding... that and finishing up my daughter's chicken trailer which made her very happy, not to mention her demented chickens which will now be free to eat all the dirt bugs and grass roots they want .

Lj

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Plickety Welcome to the forum I liked you link its a good read  ;D ;D 8) 8)
Have you got a bow and some fishing line as it works well for running a line aswell and if your wanting to hold the hinge till it hits the ground just open the scarf up alittle more  ;)

Kevin Nice clip mate  ;) Ive done that more times than id care to remember when ive done pine thinning when i was younger  ;)  ;D give me a clearfell anyday  ;) :D :D :D

Regards Chris

[Kevin]

Thanks Chris.
Not always my first choice, I'd rather bring them down with a good twist from a logrite.
The tree I was using to knock the hung tree down was leaning back and had to be wedged to favour the lay.
The top of this tree is also affected by neighbouring branches and becomes stalled in the fall.
By cutting only the right side of the hinge it allows the tree to pull away from the neighbouring limbs that have it stalled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yAkwE3IszE

Both trees will see the mill though and won't be wasted.
I was clearing an area to access some larger cedar and wanted to get in there before we had three feet of snow.
It will be good going now, nice day for a snow shower!