Big Timeline Table

[YellowHammer]

I've had this decent sized red oak log sitting around for a little while, and I noticed that week after week, customers were standing next to it taking pictures of themselves standing next to it.  It's bigger than they are so it was becoming quite an attraction.  I also noticed folks counting rings, and it gave me an idea to build a timeline table, or memory table, or whatever it's called.  I've never done one, but have seen a couple.  Basically, it's a massive cookie table that when finished, has brass plates that are tacked to the growth rings where important things happened.  The dates when man walked on the moon, WW1 and WW2, the Kennedy assanation, basically anything of historical importance will be marked by a small brass plate in that particular growth ring of history.  As an added bonus, at least for my table, (this may be the first of several) I will put important personal dates such as children's and parents birthdays, deaths, etc.

I'm thinking this will be a fun project, and if it looks good, will also be a significant product stream because I could customize it for a customer's specific family important dates.  If it turns out well, maybe a grand or two for the finished table.  Maybe more.

I've done a lot of cookies, but never anything of this magnitude, so it may very well be a complete flop, or it may work out.  Either way, it will take some significant time, and will be fun as I experiment with different techniques and learn new skills.  

So here goes.  First order of business is to introduce the log.  It's a decent sized red oak, has 1540 bdft, and seems perfect for this.  It's bigger around than the hay bales in the background.  It's only a little over a hundred years old, so the growth rings are far apart and will be perfect for little brass engraved mane and date plates to be attached.  



I needed to dress the end cleanly, so got out my little chainsaw and started cutting, trying to be as flat as possible.  Even the 52" bar gets completely buried in the log.  Fun stuff, indeed.  ;D



For reference, I'm 6'4".



Got it done, pretty flat cut.  



Screwed some temporary 2x4 structural supports to the face to prevent catastrophic cracking and splitting when I sever the cookie from the log and put it on a pallet.  I also used a big ratchet strap to give me something to hook a chain so I could hoist this beast into the air to handle it.

<
The final cookie, maybe a foot thick, significantly wider than my pallet. This is going to be a challenging project.  I have only vague ideas on what and how I'm going to do it, but I don't need no stinking plan!  I'm going to wing it.    

[rjwoelk]

   this is a very good idea i like it.  Nice job of cutting.

[Roxie]

Love it!  8)

How much would one cookie weigh? 

[thecfarm]

A real good idea.
I would like something like that. But not so big. I only have an average size home. ;D  How about a smaller one,like 3 feet across?  ;D
And yes,nice job cutting it.

[Southside]

Can't wait to see the progress!!

[YellowHammer]

Yeah, this is a classic YellowHammer overkill project.  I wanted to make a piece of furniture that makes a statement, wanted people to look at it and go "Wow".  I have no idea where I'm going to put the monster when it's finished :D, I'm not sure the chances of success are high enough for me to worry about it yet.  

I estimated the log to weight about 17,000 lbs, so maybe the cookie weighs in at 1,400 lbs or so green.  I'm going to have to take some off to get the surfaces flat and parrallel so I'm shooting for maybe at least 8 inch thick when I'm done.  Maybe when dry it will be 700 or so lbs.  with it being so big, it's going to add some unusual challenges.

I'm thinking of getting RiteLeg to build me some powder coated special legs, or I may have to fabricate some steel legs myself.  

I need to cut a couple more cookies out, so they can all be drying and I can figure out how to keep them from cracking.  I'm not sure traditional methods will work, I'm open to suggestions.  

I'm considering adding some steel reinforcement either on the face of the cookie, or in it, but again, I don't really have a plan, just going to see what happens.  

[fishpharmer]

YH, are you shooting for the 8" thickness to prevent deformation while drying?  I like this project, looking forward to updates.

[Southside]

Along the lines of the reinforcement.  If you cut out a base for the table legs out of steel that mimicked the cookie itself you could attach it from the bottom, that would help to prevent movement, cracking, etc.  Won't do much for the weight issue...

[WDH]

To calculate green weight, take the diameter in inches and square it.  Multiply by .005454.  That is the cubic foot volume of a 1 foot cookie.  Assume 60" diameter.  60 x 60 = 3600.  3600 x .005454 = 19.63 cubic feet.  Multiply the cubic feet of 19.6 x 78 pounds per cubic feet of wood and bark for red oak.  Weight = 1531 pounds.

[PA_Walnut]

I need to cut a couple more cookies out, so they can all be drying and I can figure out how to keep them from cracking.  I'm not sure traditional methods will work, I'm open to suggestions.    

Yellow, I have an answer for you..for a change! ;D

There's a great way for you to salvage that thing and dry it successfully. Preservation Solutions. They have some great potions that actually WORK! (I have used it on many occasions and am excessively pleased. In fact, I'm purchasing a 55 gallon drum to keep on hand.

Read this case study to see that it's EXACTLY what you need. Get it on there ASAP!

Small, but comparison, but I have a 100 year old Sycamore that I'm about to quarter...yes, exactly 100 years old. (my daughter counted 'em and was excited to report). So, I'm going to cut a cookie and make a similar table for her. It will be a nice keepsake for her to remember the work we do together.

(*disclaimer: I have no affiliation with Preservation, and make precisely $0 from a referral. Just good stuff!)








(no, I didn't cut it with the baby saw...just on there for reference).  :D

[GAB]

Yeah, this is a classic YellowHammer overkill project.  I wanted to make a piece of furniture that makes a statement, wanted people to look at it and go "Wow".  I have no idea where I'm going to put the monster when it's finished :D, I'm not sure the chances of success are high enough for me to worry about it yet.  

I estimated the log to weight about 17,000 lbs, so maybe the cookie weighs in at 1,400 lbs or so green.  I'm going to have to take some off to get the surfaces flat and parrallel so I'm shooting for maybe at least 8 inch thick when I'm done.  Maybe when dry it will be 700 or so lbs.  with it being so big, it's going to add some unusual challenges.

I'm thinking of getting RiteLeg to build me some powder coated special legs, or I may have to fabricate some steel legs myself.  

I need to cut a couple more cookies out, so they can all be drying and I can figure out how to keep them from cracking.  I'm not sure traditional methods will work, I'm open to suggestions.  

I'm considering adding some steel reinforcement either on the face of the cookie, or in it, but again, I don't really have a plan, just going to see what happens.  

In reference to your last sentence - have you considered 2 silo hoops?  Something you can tighten as the cookie dries.
Gerald

[pineywoods]

WOW, I'd recommend a consult with tule peak.. I have a butt cut sycamore about that size, if you succeed, I might just try. I have seen a cookie table close to that size, but it was cedar, not so prone to crack..

[caveman]

That should make a cool time table.  I noticed that Martha and your family's Cat are doing the heavy lifting.  

[Ljohnsaw]

 :P

[Joey Grimes]

Wow that's huge!!

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

To calculate green weight, take the diameter in inches and square it.  Multiply by .005454.  That is the cubic foot volume of a 1 foot cookie.  Assume 60" diameter.  60 x 60 = 3600.  3600 x .005454 = 19.63 cubic feet.  Multiply the cubic feet of 19.6 x 78 pounds per cubic feet of wood and bark for red oak.  Weight = 1531 pounds.

say_what

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Robert, how old is that cap you are wearing? 
Evertime I see you you have the came OLD cap on.  :D

[Larry]

Some years ago I saw a similar red oak slice, I think it was in the new at the time Hobbs State Park building.  It had a timeline of interesting events.  There was always several people looking at it.  I thought it interesting that the cookie did not have a big crack as almost all of them do.

It wasn't long after that I got involved with another oak slice.  I didn't have a big enough chainsaw to slice it but got called to surface it with a router bridge.  It went into a room in a lake home with a time line on development of the White River chain of lakes.  One of those statement things in a high end home.

[WDH]

He looks posed in that chain saw pic.  I think that he is just a Stunt Double, just standing in for the pic.  Martha probably actually sawed it :D. 

[YellowHammer]

Me and my hat are the eye candy and trademark look of the company, just like Colonel Sanders of KFC.   :D  With the Colonel, it would just be another restaurant sellling chicken.  

When I bought the embroidered hats, I got a dozen all the same color.  As Forrest Gump says, "That's one less thing to worry about."   

I appreciate the comments on the cookie.  I think I will be trying several of them.  One of the issues with this log is that it has a large natural seam or crack in the pith that goes 75% from one bark edge to the other.  

[JMoore]

Hey Robert I watch just about anything wood related on the tv. Anyways Redwood Kings did one similar to a redwood and before they even cut it they attached a  plywood face to it using lotsa screws. Later they recessed that plywood "face" into the base if I remember correctly so the top was the timeline but if you looked underneath it was plywood. This thing was huge though and seems like it was 1000 years old or more.

[JMoore]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR4kN5Xiw-o    Older then I remembered and not the full build but You can see where they attached the support wood.

[WDH]

That is so cool!

[PA_Walnut]

Older then I remembered and not the full build but You can see where they attached the support wood.

OK. I'm gonna take my 100 year old sycamore cookie and throw it on the firewood pile now. :( 

[YellowHammer]

I like the plywood idea, I hadn't seen that.  I need to watch the full episode.  I may also try some steel plate or both.  

So I ordered and received some pentacryl, but a gallon is about $75 and the instructions say I'm supposed to keep pouring it on until it stops soaking in, basically filling the wood with the product.  Well, does anyone else see a problem?  I'm way undergunned. I think I'm gonna need more pentacryl, maybe 25 gallons!


I considered pouring other things on it including oils, but didn't want to ruin it.  However, I need to get it stabilized enough to start moving it, because it will crack under its own weight.  

I've considered using bow ties, but they would have to be huge and I'm not sure that wouldnt ruin the look.  

I need to get moving on it, I don't really have time for it to dry, I'd like to get it flat on one side and braced and stabilized.  

[scsmith42]

Robert, I've soaked oak cookies in Pentacryl before, and my best results were when it was soaked for a year.  A 200 year old white oak cookie was put in a baby pool, filled until it was covered all the way while it was in the back of a shed.  

The ones that I've done for a few weeks always cracked some.  The one year soaking did not.

We've also overseen 54" diameter red oak cookies, 16" thick, that had the  bottom inside hollowed out until the top was only around 1.5" thick.  It too is currently soaking in Pentacryl but it required a lot less of it.  A client with a CNC Router did the hollowing.

A third method to help prevent cracking is to drill a bunch of 1.5" - 2" diameter recesses in the bottom side of the cookie - again only leaving about 1.5" between the bottom of the hole and the top of the cookie.  This serves to relieve a lot of the stresses.  Cookies prepped this way tend to dry in a slight mushroom shape.  We use a Forster bit to drill the holes.

[Ianab]

Yeah Pentacryl and PEG work by replacing the water in the wood. The PEG then stays in place instead of slowly drying out like water will. So in theory the wood doesn't shrink and crack. 

But you need a bucket load of it for a piece that size. 

[Savannahdan]

Years ago I tried using a diluted solution of wood glue (Elmers, Titebond, etc.) for sealing and stabilizing wood.  But, it was always on something much smaller than what you're working with.  There's another solution under Cactus Juice but it's pricing is similar to what the pentacryl is.  You get better bang out of all of it if you can put the piece under pressure in order to get the solution infused deeper into the wood.  A years soaking should be okay but it's going to get the kids mad at you!  :D

[WDH]

I would cut two.  Let them crack.  Then, use one to cut wedges to fit the cracks in the other one.  Should not take away the effect that you want since you only need one continuous area of rings to show the timeline.  

Much faster.  Much cheaper.  I know that you like fast and cheap ;D. 

[Texas Ranger]

What Danny said, cut a single kerf from outside to pith and let dry, that will handle all shrinkage, and then fill in with cut from second cookie, or depending on amount of shrinkage, fill with bondo.

[Bill Gaiche]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR4kN5Xiw-o    Older then I remembered and not the full build but You can see where they attached the support wood.

Great. I tried to find that show where they cut this with a chainsaw, no luck. It was interesting. The one cookie that they cut went to I believe in Georgia for a outside table top at a bar so people could stand around it, drink beer and tell stories.

[Just Right]

Mr Smith 42,  Have you tried a combination of two of the methods you talked about?  Maybe the holes and soaking in Pentacryl?  Shorten up the soak time?

[scsmith42]

Mr Smith 42,  Have you tried a combination of two of the methods you talked about?  Maybe the holes and soaking in Pentacryl?  Shorten up the soak time?

We have a customer that combined the hollowing of a 16" cookie with a pentacryl soak.  It's only been a month so it's too early to tell.
Part of the soak time required depends upon the species being soaked. White oak (which we frequently work with), has closed pores so it takes longer than red oak.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

  I know that you like fast and cheap ;D.

I just can't do it.    smiley_ignore

[YellowHammer]

I am an impatient sort, as a couple of my buddies have commented, and I don't want to wait a year or two as this "hunk of wood on a pallet" is starting to draw a crowd of spectators.  I also can't see spending a fortune on Pentacryl.
So I put it by the door last week and it drew quite a crowd and lots of comments.  During the day, several things occurred to me.

I need to get it off the pallet, and off the ground.
I need to get it in view of the customers as a showpiece, even before it has dried out, as in "now".
Customers like to gawk and count the rings and it attracts them like moths.
The piece is already moving and has developed a noticeable scooping or shallowing toward the center.   So it's pretty lively.
The thing is heavy, big and bulky.
I'd like the piece to mature into the full table real time, in front of the customers.

So I'm considering mounting it to a leg set and having it dry in front of the customers for as long as it takes.  If it cracks, and it will, I will have to deal with it and several excellent suggestions.  Then I will continue with the construction, as time allows, into the full memory table.  Kind of a interactive project, in full view of the customers, so they can see it happening.  If I'm going to have to wait for it to dry, it might as well be doing something productive.  

It occurred that maybe I could drill some holes sideways, 5'4" long, from bark to bark, and put all thread rod in several places and internally clamp it while it's drying.  

Did I mention earlier I have no plan and was going to wing it?

I will cut some duplicate cookies for backup and repair and stack them out of sight as suggested.

[customsawyer]

Neat piece. Going to keep an eye on this one. 

[WDH]

You could use it as a bench as it dries.

[PA_Walnut]

I also can't see spending a fortune on Pentacryl.

It was mentioned above that someone soaks that in a kiddy pool of Pentacryl!  That must take financing terms to accomplish. I swear by the stuff, but WHEW....it'll bust the bank, for sure! I need to reverse engineer the stuff and crack the code.

Yellow, I'd also wrap it in plastic after you've applied the pentacryl. (several time). This will slow it down and you can remove it on SAT's to thrill and awe onlookers! 8)

[Just Right]

I will be keeping an eye out to see how that customers soak and holes turns out.  Thanks.

[DPatton]

Did I mention earlier I have no plan and was going to wing it?

:D :D :D :D :D That's my kind of plan Yellowhammer.

[69bronco]

 <
here's a reference for "bowties ",the bigger one is 6 1/2" the slab is 30". Hope it helps!

[btulloh]

This is a really interesting thing YH - on many levels.  I'm looking forward to watch it unfold.  

I think your plan is appropriate, otherwise you'd probably end up with paralysis-by-analysis.  

DanG the torpedoes!  Full speed ahead!

[btulloh]

Bump. 

@YellowHammer - Any news on the big cookie?

[WDH]

We don't need no stinkin' plan.........

[doc henderson]

maybe bore into different depths from the bottom and monitor moisture real time with probes.  be cool demo.  or could let 2 of them dry, maybe guide the crack as suggested by cutting to the center from the outer ring, and when it is done with shrinking, could complete the cut across to make half a cookie in both, then joint the edges and flip around and make a book matched table from the halves of two adjoining cookies.   :P

[YellowHammer]

I put it out in the sun, on a pallet, on the concrete so it would get a little oven baked several weeks ago.  I'm thinking its getting pretty dry, but I'll leave it out as long as we are getting these high and dry fall days.  

I've got to figure out a way to easily parrallel and flatten both sides.  With easy being the key word.  This thing is huge and I've got to work both sides.  I briefly considered chaining it to my truck and dragging it down the road to flatten one side, but even that's a little too redneck for me.  Maybe.   :D

[doc henderson]

I did a 4 foot round stump table for my wife, bottom side with big bar chainsaw, and tuned with a hand power planer, top done with router sled with rails from 2x4 screwed to sides of pallet.  4 " Makita was about 300bucks.



 



 



 

[doc henderson]

2" ammana router bit, in a porter cable plunge router.  either maple or "oak" stump, who can tell!!!  @Southside @YellowHammer .   :D :D

[YellowHammer]

That looks like a good way to do it.  

[Old Greenhorn]

2" ammana router bit, in a porter cable plunge router.  either maple or "oak" stump, who can tell!!!  @Southside @YellowHammer .   :D :D

Doc, what is the finish you put on that stump? You guys got me thinking on this and I have this fairly large tree over at the Ashokan center. It occurs to me now that I have to make one of these for them to use in their youth education programs. More than just a curiosity for them, this would be useful. I am thinking it would have to be covered with epoxy resin to preserve it, and probably have some good plywood underneath to make it stable. Also, I now have access to a woomizer slabmaster to do the routing and sanding, so the hard part might not be so hard. ;D
 Very cool idea.

[WDH]

 either maple or "oak" stump, who can tell!!! 

Maple, likely silver maple.

[doc henderson]

@YellowHammer it works but may be more work than you want.  that hand power planer worked fine even across the grain.  they make a resin for marine application to stabilize dry rot that might fill in.  the thick stuff on top may pop off in chunks if the wood is still shrinking.  yes is a maple @WDH I am trying to not live down my maple/oak debacle that @Southside likes to bring up along with chickens all the time.  Mine was very flat @Old Greenhorn for a living room piece, but for kids outside, I think you planer will work fine, I just kept doing a criss cross pattern, then sanded starting at 40 grit with a larger ROS on a angle grinder frame.  porter cable.  this was the bottom of the tree so had some flare and lots of character.  I did some boiled linseed oil then gloss spar poly, the min-wax.  brushed on the first few coats, light sanded 120 grit, then sprayed a few mirror coats. it got flat after about 5 1/4 inch passed but for the one root flare pointing at 4 o:clock.  had to take it down another 3 passes to get that.  had a tone of wood shavings when done.



 


ps.  I was born in 1960 if you want to add me to your timeline. :D :D :D.  I did hollow out the back to make it lighter and relieve stress (not my own)  and in hopes it would dry faster.  It has old looking metal 4 inch casters and rolls on our floors with the push of one finger.
pss.  I primarily use satin, but read that the rays in maple are brighter with a gloss finish.

[Don P]

I also can't see spending a fortune on Pentacryl.

It was mentioned above that someone soaks that in a kiddy pool of Pentacryl! That must take financing terms to accomplish. I swear by the stuff, but WHEW....it'll bust the bank, for sure! I need to reverse engineer the stuff and crack the code.

Yellow, I'd also wrap it in plastic after you've applied the pentacryl. (several time). This will slow it down and you can remove it on SAT's to thrill and awe onlookers! 8)

Out of my league, I think it is from this :P
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methacrylate

Uh, the base chemicals can catch fire and blow if handled wrong. There was a time when that added to the appeal :D

[doc henderson]

 I have used denatured alcohol for cookies and it seemed to help.  it displaces the water but does not fill in the gap.  less cracking and cheaper.  5 gallons for 32 bucks at menards.  I have not tried a big stump.  it only soaks for hours/days not months.  also flammable.     bon_fire    I soaked my 12 inch cookies stacked in a 30 gallon barrel with a lid.  

[YellowHammer]

I tried the Pentarcrly thing, it's a good idea, but....,I bought $80 of it, poured it on when the cutoff was fresh and it didn't even begin to cover it, much less soak in. :

It was like washing a car :D with a water pik.  But I tried.  

One of my friends who does flooring as said he'd loan me his big flooring sander, but that seems a little fraught with "Opps" moments.  I keep thinking there is some strategy I could use the front end loader or my forklift so I don't even have to break a sweat.   :D

Oh, well. I'll keep on cogitating on it.  I still have a little time.  

I have no plan.  This will be fun.  

[doc henderson]

the belt type are hard to handle, but they made a square buff that is more like and oscillating sander.  it would be easier. used to be able to rent them.  they made money on the sandpaper I think they were 12 x 18 ".

[Don P]

Hmm, the denatured alcohol isn't "bulking" the cell when the moisture goes away, is it just making the drying rate throughout the piece more uniform?

Wandering around looking at resins that might be able to bulk a cell cheaply. I know styrene has been tried in the past. Styrene was first made from the volatiles from the resin of liquidamber, sweet gum trees. The resin is known as storax. I don't know what else they did to it, on exposure it becomes hard and rubbery. You'd have to squeeze a lot of sweet gum to cover a big cookie.

That resin also has some interesting medicinal and anti fungal properties, even white and brown rot resistance @doc henderson;
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4441155/

[doc henderson]

I do not have a scientific explanation for the alcohol, but the "practical" explanation was it displaced the water, and alcohol did not cause the swelling and therefore less shrinking.  however the swelling is already there form the water.  I still tended to let them air dry some and finish in a box to slow the drying.  all I know is I have far less sapwood splitting in the soaked and slow dried cookies then left in the shop.



 



 



 

the heartwood split here, this is also a larger cookie.

[alan gage]

I've never looked at a stump grinder up close but is there any chance that with a level surface and good operator they could at least get it close to make the final cleanup a little more manageable?

Alan

[DPatton]

Not with any stump grinder I've seen or been around.

[Just Right]

YH,  you could wait till Jake gets a Slab Mizer and let him surface it for you.  Or if you can't wait there is a guy over this way that has a Wood Whizz.  And he only charges 10.00 a square ft.  Just a thought.  Here is a pic of a slab he let me flatten

 .