Coffee Anyone?

[YellowHammer]

I was at a log yard this Friday and I noticed a small pile of eye catching logs with some very deep root beer color and tight growth rings.  I asked the logger what they were, and he said he wasn't sure, but his loader operator identified them as Coffee tree logs, and they were the first he'd seen in 40 years of logging.  So with me not knowing anything about them either, naturally, I bought them ;D

I brought them home, did a little Googling, and figure they are Kentucky Coffee Tree logs, otherwise known as American Mahogany, among other names. If someone else has a better ID I'd be glad to hear it.  Maybe @WDH can make a ruling.  I sawed them up today, in the snow flurries, so I could see what they looked like inside.  Here is a picture of the logs (with a little pile of cherry sticks in the background) and of the end grain and lumber, which looks real nice.  I did notice the side wood was pretty clear, but as I got deeper in the log, defects started showing up.  I'm not sure how its going to dry, it seemed pretty well behaved coming off the mill.  The tract of land they are logging supposedly has a couple more of these trees, which I'll try to get.
       

[Cazzhrdwd]

I sawed and dried some years ago when I was doing custom work. They have a nice shine to them when planed. I can't remember it doing anything weird. I remember it being quite hard when sawing and molding.

I still can't believe the cherry you get, very nice. What's that going for now in the log?

[Dan_Shade]

My grandparents had 4 of the trees on their farm.   I have always found them fascinating.

[Ocklawahaboy]

Neat logs and lumber.  They and the cherry are indeed impressive.

[WH_Conley]

I lean toward Coffee Tree, don't see much here in Kentucky. If that is in fact what they are they should behave nicely.

[mesquite buckeye]

I have a few of them at my place. They do have a tendency to get hollow centers. Sure are pretty though. The bark is pretty beat up to tell what they looked like standing, but the wood looks right. Get one of the pods and you can be sure. Big stubby fat and thick. ;D

[SwampDonkey]

You sure they aren't sassafras? It (lumber) looks a lot like ash, like I'm seeing there.  ;)

[SwampDonkey]

Looking at my keys here coffeetree is close as well to ash.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I don't know the behavior but the grain you sawed looks nice.

[WDH]

Yellowhammer saws a lot of sassafras, so I suspect that he would know it if it was sassafras.  The wood sure looks like Kentucky Coffeetree to me. 

[dustyhat]

Never got ahold of any coffee tree ,so i cant say , but it sure has a strong resemblance to sassafras.

[chickenchaser]

Could always do a scratch-and-sniff to eliminate the sassafras.  ;)

A few years ago, my dad and I were pondering a fenceline in need of maintenance. After years of walking by a group of trees, I realized they were sassafras. I was dumbfounded, as they were (are) at least 15"DBH.
I asked him - to confirm my wintertime tree I.D. He said they were indeed sassafras. I asked why I had never seen any that size around...always scraggly ones up to 6"-8"?
His reply - "We cut the rest for fence braces."  :

CC

[YellowHammer]

I saw and sell a lot of sassafras.

The bark on these logs is flat and flaky, almost like cherry, not "fluffy" and raised like sass. It also has a much redder, deeper grain and no real discernible odor when we were sawing, unlike sassafras where it takes days to get the root beer smell off of me.  ;D
The grain does have some of the distinctive markings of sassafras and I'm wondering if it will have the same chatoyance.  I'd like to get some seed pods but all I got was the logs.

Is Kentucky Coffee Tree as rare as people around here think or are we just on the edge of its range?I'm wondering about selling price...

@Dan_Shade, what made them so interesting?  I'd like to know more.

[SwampDonkey]

Yep, well you probably have it (coffee tree) then.  Those three species however all look to have similar grain in lumber photos.  ;D

[dustyhat]

It must be pretty rare here in ky. because i aint never got to see one .and  i log for a living :D

[Larry]

When I lived in north Missouri I sawed quite a bit of it.  No demand for the lumber so the logs sold for pallet log prices.  I could discount it a little from red oak and move it.

I'm not sure if it was the area or not but shake was in a lot of the logs.  Had to watch careful as to what I bought.

[Dodgy Loner]

Awesome find. I would concur with the KY Coffetree identification. 

[Solomon]

You sure they aren't sassafras? It (lumber) looks a lot like ash, like I'm seeing there.  ;)

Sassafrass would be my opinion as well.   I concure with Swampdonkey.

[Dodgy Loner]

You sure they aren't sassafras? It (lumber) looks a lot like ash, like I'm seeing there.  ;)

Sassafrass would be my opinion as well.   I concure with Swampdonkey.

So you don't think YellowHammer knows how to identify sassafras? ??? He says he does, I believe him.

FWIW, coffeetree looks a lot like sassafras, but doesn't smell anything like it. They are very simple to tell apart if you're sawing them. Not to mention the bark doesn't look anything like sassafras.

[cbla]

Nice looking lumber

[SwampDonkey]

I would be inclined to trust someone that deals with a lot of sassafras. He's probably seen lots of variation to. However initial comments are often made with little knowledge of what someone else saws or knows about species. As far as bark on that one log, it may or may not be easy to see the characteristics for a determination. Be that as it may, all three species of lumber looks close when you don't have access to other gross features: smell, end grain, buds....etc.  Not all ash is "white" like on baseball bats. We have a lot with medium or darker brown heartwood with a greyish cast once it's been exposed for awhile. Certainly not choc brown like walnut unless it's rotten.

[Dodgy Loner]

Of course, SwampDonkey. Your suggestion of sassafras was very reasonable given the color and grain patterns in YellowHammer's pictures. I was just wondering why people were still suggesting sassafras after YellowHammer confirmed that it was not sassafras:

I saw and sell a lot of sassafras.

The bark on these logs is flat and flaky, almost like cherry, not "fluffy" and raised like sass. It also has a much redder, deeper grain and no real discernible odor when we were sawing, unlike sassafras where it takes days to get the root beer smell off of me.  ;D

[mesquite buckeye]

The coffeetrees on my place are scattered and the trees only seem happy in fencerows, forest edges and if on the top of the canopy. I'm thinking they are not super fast growing if not open grown, and very high light requiring. That would cause them lots of problems with ever being very common. I bet with the large, (apparently) edible pods that this tree falls into the megafauna dispersed group of trees of which would have at one time made up much of the American temperate savanna. This group would at the minimum have been comprised of Kentucky cofffeetree, Osage orange, Honey locust and I'm sure many others I can't think of at the moment that have lost much of their original ranges with the extinction of giant ground sloths, mastodons and mammoths.

[kantuckid]

I'm in E KY and see one now and then mostly on roadside, never as a woods tree. Sort of like cherry in location. That's not sasafrass! it would have the smell as stated. The board pics also show like red elm -grain & color wise. I'm a woodworker too and have used some sass. and it is greenish/gray when dry. I have a tree that i'm gonna drop, it's gonna saw maybe 1x8-not as big as they get further south. I worked with a guy said they had one when he grew up big enough to crawl into on a rainy day-was in NE KY.
I've seen a couple of coffee boards and even had some I got mixed in a pile off an old house I tore down. It's not really that hard  and works good in cabinet work. I would rave about it as a wood but has special interest at that.
AZ has coffee trees, hmmm...

[Kbeitz]

As a kid I drank many a gallon of sassafras tea.
Now thay say it's not good for you.
But I still like it.

[YellowHammer]

The best thing is that I bought these logs for $0.55 per bdft and I've already got people in line waiting for the boards at about $5 per bdft, assuming I can dry them alright.  I've got some customers who always ask for something special, and the rarity of this wood around here gives it value.  Somehow, not quite by accident ;), I managed to stack the logs pretty close to where the customers park (we had about 40 this Saturday), and several of them spotted the unusual logs right off and said they wanted the boards.   

[mesquite buckeye]

AZ has coffee trees, hmmm...

Nope, but Missouri does. ;D 8) 8) 8)

[kantuckid]

AZ has coffee trees, hmmm...

Nope, but Missouri does. ;D 8) 8) 8)

I know MO pretty well as my people are from the Ozarks years ago. Tuscon in MO threw me...
Sass. is said to be a carcinogen. When I worked in a grocery (59-65) in Topeka,KS we sold sass. chips in a little net bag in produce from a commercial source. To make the tea you use the root. I made sass chips for my wifes KY g-ma years ago. I'd dig a small one up and wash the roots then took the cleaned, trimmed root and ran it over my jointer blade & caught the chips for her.
the wood is very brash in woodworking. I made jewelry boxes for a sawmill friend from some for him.
Good catch to come up with that much coffee tree! I see them on I-roadsides at times. 

[pineywoods]

Never seen a coffee tree here, never even heard of one..But that lumber looks just like chinaberry....

[mesquite buckeye]

Wikipedia has an excellent article:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_coffeetree

Note that this species Gymnocladus dioicus belongs in the legume family. That makes it a relative of familiar midwestern trees: black locust, honeylocust, and yellow wood. It is, however, in the Caesalpinoid legume subfamily, which makes it a closer relative of palo verdes and tropical bauhinias. Honeylocust is closer to mesquite and acacias, while black locust and yellow wood are more closely related to garden peas and beans. FYI just for fun. ;D 8) 8) 8)

[Banjo picker]

Somehow, not quite by accident ;), I managed to stack the logs pretty close to where the customers park (we had about 40 this Saturday), and several of them spotted the unusual logs right off and said they wanted the boards.   

Smart move. ;)   Banjo

[WDH]

YH,

You could sell snake oil from the Snake Oil Tree  ;D. 

At $12 per liquid foot  :D.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I have Piedmont Goat Wood at $300.00 a slab. Has a smell to it but beautiful grains and lots of pith.  ;D

[Deese]

I have Piedmont Goat Wood at $300.00 a slab. Has a smell to it but beautiful grains and lots of pith.  ;D

Goat, I will drive over there and buy a few of those goatwood slabs after I win the Powerball lottery tomorrow night.

[WDH]

lots of pith.  ;D

That is you in a nutshell (old saying)  :D.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

 smiley_ignore

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I have Piedmont Goat Wood at $300.00 a slab. Has a smell to it but beautiful grains and lots of pith.  ;D

Goat, I will drive over there and buy a few of those goatwood slabs after I win the Powerball lottery tomorrow night.

I'm playing the Lottery too. If I win, I will be helping out a lot of you guys on here.....just the ones that have been kind to me.  ;D

[Nomad]

I have Piedmont Goat Wood at $300.00 a slab. Has a smell to it but beautiful grains and lots of pith.  ;D

Goat, I will drive over there and buy a few of those goatwood slabs after I win the Powerball lottery tomorrow night.

I'm playing the Lottery too. If I win, I will be helping out a lot of you guys on here.....just the ones that have been kind to me.  ;D

     So...  You're saying the entire Forestry Forum are on our own? ;D

[strunk57]

That is for sure KY coffee tree, I have saw a few of these on the halves, I sold my clear lumber for $6. I have one in the yard now, it's 26" but only 5' long. Makes beautiful lumber and easy to work once dry.

[Deese]

I have Piedmont Goat Wood at $300.00 a slab. Has a smell to it but beautiful grains and lots of pith.  ;D

Goat, I will drive over there and buy a few of those goatwood slabs after I win the Powerball lottery tomorrow night.

I'm playing the Lottery too. If I win, I will be helping out a lot of you guys on here.....just the ones that have been kind to me.  ;D

That's right, buddy! Hehehe!

[PC-Urban-Sawyer]

I have Piedmont Goat Wood at $300.00 a slab. Has a smell to it but beautiful grains and lots of pith.  ;D

David,

Maybe less pith would lead to less smell...

Herb

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

 :D

[OffGrid973]

If you spilt the 1.5 billion with your goat, is the goat tax higher than 39% we tax paying morons have to deal with.  I am thinking we let the "The Goat Strikes Back" claim it and pay the government nothing

#FavoriteGoatGameLastYear

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

If you spilt the 1.5 billion with your goat, is the goat tax higher than 39% we tax paying morons have to deal with.  I am thinking we let the "The Goat Strikes Back" claim it and pay the government nothing

#FavoriteGoatGameLastYear

Goats are extinct exempt.  ;D

[yukon cornelius]

We have one kentucky coffee bean tree on us. One I know of anyway. We identified it by the odd pods with big bean things inside. Some time I am want to collect a bunch and try to make "coffee"

[Tom the Sawyer]

Read up on the toxicity issue with KFT pods. You want it to perk you up, not put you down.

I have milled a few Kentucky Coffeetree logs.  The most obvious characteristic, around here, is that the sapwood is so narrow, usually about 1/4".  The only contrasting sapwood I have seen that is that narrow.  Anyone know of another species with such narrow sapwood?

[5quarter]

Tom...mulberry comes to mind.  ;)

YH...I've sawn plenty of coffee wood. They planted them in landscapes like crazy back in the 50's and 60's but I don't recall any growing in the woods. It's one of the nicest woods to work with. growing habit is straight with few knots, as hard as white oak, easier to dry than walnut and machines and finishes very well. I get between
$6-$8.bf and have no trouble selling it on a project. It doesn't look like you'll have any trouble either.  ;)
Also, coffee wood around here is also called deadwood, probably because it's the latest to leaf out and the first to drop its leaves in the fall.

[WDH]

The only contrasting sapwood I have seen that is that narrow.  Anyone know of another species with such narrow sapwood?

Black locust, also a legume. 

[dustyhat]

Having the last name ( Coffey ) and living in Kentucky, you would think i had my very own ky coffee tree :D

[dboyt]

KY Coffeetree is the only species I know of with alternate, bi-pinnately compound leaves.  I don't see many of them in the woods, though.

[petefrom bearswamp]

Some species have such narrow sapwood that it doesn't exist.

[kantuckid]

If you spilt the 1.5 billion with your goat, is the goat tax higher than 39% we tax paying morons have to deal with.  I am thinking we let the "The Goat Strikes Back" claim it and pay the government nothing

#FavoriteGoatGameLastYear

Pith = "That's a pithy comment"... :D
As for splitting the money-the cable news folks told me last nite that the rich were already "taking the burden" as their taxes paid for most everything? That would lead me to wonder WTH they need with taxing the crap out of my wife & I given the level of FED taxes we pay and we don't even have any wages, just teacher retirement checks. Interestingly I pay far more in fed taxes than my total yearly earnings at the time I began working a FT job. Then there's the economy which is up or down, depending on the source. Rant over, temporarily... ;D
did I say I don't eat goat, keep um :new_year:

[kantuckid]

Read up on the toxicity issue with KFT pods. You want it to perk you up, not put you down.

I have milled a few Kentucky Coffeetree logs.  The most obvious characteristic, around here, is that the sapwood is so narrow, usually about 1/4".  The only contrasting sapwood I have seen that is that narrow.  Anyone know of another species with such narrow sapwood?

For narrow sap see the ERC logs in a recent thread. I sawed some years ago, ~ 1975, that had that narrow sap-they came out of an old cemetery(DEEP! shade and same for some I recently sawed from estill Co, KY that grew similar and near cliffs too) in Johnson Co KY, near Paintsville Lake. The folks were ticked that the old cedars were "discoloring the tombstones". I remember telling my FIL that had people buried there that a 100 year old tombstone was supposed to look old. he told me about them but wasn't real worried about if they were cut or stayed. I guess some people "need" stuff to worry over?
I think the narrow sap is often as much about the location/age as species?

[WDH]

KY Coffeetree is the only species I know of with alternate, bi-pinnately compound leaves.  I don't see many of them in the woods, though.

Several other legumes display the same alternate bi-pinnate compound leaf.  Here are two more.

http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=166

http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=30

[YellowHammer]

YH,

You could sell snake oil from the Snake Oil Tree  ;D. 

At $12 per liquid foot  :D.

Sure, why not?  I bet there are a lot of snakes out there that have dry skin issues, and need a good skin moisturizer, what with all that crawling around on the ground.   :D

[YellowHammer]

I just got in the last 9 logs the logger had, 12 footers, a couple nice and big, relatively straight.  I'm hoping he can get more off the tract he's working, it's a big one, up on the mountain that hasn't been logged for generations, apparently.  Some beautiful logs, of all species, coming in. 

[Deese]

 smiley_clapping

[WDH]

DanG Robert,

That is too good  ;D. 

[SawyerBrown]

To be honest, I'd never even heard of it until Saturday when a guy had two small logs in the pile to saw.  Photo doesn't do justice to the rich colors ... really beautiful stuff.  Unfortunately, someone had decided to drive 4 nails in at some point (the only ones we hit all day) -- the only question in my mind for such an act -- felony or just a misdemeanor?

 

[LAZERDAN]

Get a Rope !