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Big Slabs: Sales and handling

Started by jemmy, June 23, 2017, 10:44:34 PM

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WDH

Quote from: YellowHammer on June 29, 2017, 02:45:35 PM
Most of the slabs we sell are less than 25 inches wide, very high grade, planed both sides, table quality flat, 3 inches or less thick, and 8 to 12 feet long.  That covers 90% of the retail demand in this area.

This is exactly my strategy too.  I like to keep my slabs less than 24" wide, sawn 9/4 which is 2 3/8" thick off the mill, air dry them a minimum of 8 - 9 month, usually longer (I shoot for 20% moisture content or less going into the kiln), kiln dry them to below 10%, sterilize them, flatten them (usually with a skim cut on the sawmill if necessary or with a planer sled), then finish plane them.  I am not interested in fooling with slabs over 24" wide or over 10' long.  Anything larger than that I cannot handle by myself anyway.  My slabs sell extremely well, and I am always short of supply.  I generally price the slabs per bf at 1.5 times the 4/4 bf price for that species.  I have decided to raise the price on my live edge walnut 9/4 slabs and price them closer to 2x 4/4 price.   
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Chop Shop

I read and enjoy lots of advice posted here on this and other forums but,,,,,


Does anyone feel that the more info floating around promotes more "millers" to get started up with a great money making bizz?

Its great for the sawmill production bizz and support tools industry but every person that you take their hand and lead step by step now becomes potential competition.


Pretty soon there are thousands of "millers" and way to much product on the market and then WE ALL get a pay cut.

Just my .02


Im not trying to be rude but ya dont see other bizzes teaching the competition how to compete/prosper.

YellowHammer

Quote from: Chop Shop on July 03, 2017, 03:13:11 PM
I read and enjoy lots of advice posted here on this and other forums but,,,,,
Pretty soon there are thousands of "millers" and way to much product on the market and then WE ALL get a pay cut.
Im not trying to be rude but ya dont see other bizzes teaching the competition how to compete/prosper.

This is a question I've considered for many years and many times.  Its not a theoretical question, it has actually happened to me twice, and in the end, all it did both times was make my business stronger.  So I may have a different opinion than others.  I'm a Pro Sawyer with WoodMizer and give sawmill demos.  I have sold several mills, some in my local area which seems dumb as I also used to custom saw for the public.  Two different people I did a demo for said they wanted to start a business "just like mine."  I smiled and said, sure go ahead, invest many, many hundred grand, start working 12 to 14 hour days, every day, every week, for years, then get ready to move 1.14 million pounds of wood every year, (our 2014 number, we have since grown) and have at it. 

Both businesses failed with the first year.  I asked each of them why, and the answers were basically "its a LOT of work" and "dealing with the public is tougher than it looks."  They both summarized with "You have to be crazy to do this."

I agree, it takes a certain amount of "crazy" to do this, but I have always had a certain amount of "crazy", otherwise known as passion, my whole life. 

There is certainly a possibility that someone else with as much passion and resources as I have will set up shop next door, and try to cut me off.  More power to them, I played competitive sports at the college level, I enjoy a good ball game. 

There are at least two mega mills next to me, each does what I do, more or less, on a much larger scale, a many million dollar level.  One just put in a million square feet of kilns, but their business is just a little different than mine, so no problem.  They were both very reluctant to talk to me in the beginning, but I eventually developed business relationships with both places, and now we are complimentary to each other, not competitive. 

I am always open to answering good questions as they appear on this Forum, they deserve to be answered.  Its no different than somebody asking what kind of lure the fish as biting on, or what I caught last week.  In many ways, fishing is an art, and some things just don't translate.  If they did, we would all be professional fisherman just by reading magazines, watching TV shows, and visiting tournament venues.  It just isn't going to happen.  But that doesn't mean there's no reason not to help someone catch more fish. 

In many ways, it is the same thing in the sawing and drying industry.  Some things just don't translate, and some things comes from years of experience and intuition, and its really impossible to transmit that info, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't help someone mill better wood, or otherwise help them enjoy doing something they like.

That being said, there are some folks on the Forum who have the same type of business I have, and I say more power to them, "good job" because it isn't easy, and I consider them my friends not my competitors, mainly because, as far as I can tell, they are as "crazy" as I am.  I say that as an utmost compliment.

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

terrifictimbersllc

To quote one of my customers,  "every one else's gig looks great until you try to do it yourself".
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

grouch

Quote from: Chop Shop on July 03, 2017, 03:13:11 PM
I read and enjoy lots of advice posted here on this and other forums but,,,,,


Does anyone feel that the more info floating around promotes more "millers" to get started up with a great money making bizz?

Its great for the sawmill production bizz and support tools industry but every person that you take their hand and lead step by step now becomes potential competition.


Pretty soon there are thousands of "millers" and way to much product on the market and then WE ALL get a pay cut.

Just my .02


Im not trying to be rude but ya dont see other bizzes teaching the competition how to compete/prosper.

Actually, yes, I do see others teaching their trades to newbies and each other, all over the Internet.

"He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me."
-- Thomas Jefferson

Not everybody is willing to take the time to learn how to saw and process wood and even fewer are willing to do the hard work that it requires. Greed and selfishness are not needed to maintain prices and they don't add a bit of value to the product.

You might want to look up a post or two by Magicman and take note of his "sig".
Find something to do that interests you.

4x4American

I wouldn't be where I'm at today if it weren't for the help of great forum members (not saying that I'm in some special place lol).  It would be wrong in my eyes if I didn't pass on what I've learned.  And I believe that you never stop learning.  But in terms of competition, as mentioned above, it's hard work and not everyone has the willpower/passion to keep going.  Besides with all the free govt handouts nowadays seems as though most people would rather be broke sitting at home than go broke busting their chops running a sawmill lol
Boy, back in my day..

Bruno of NH

When I first started my contracting business in 1984 no one helped me out I learned by making lots of mistakes and bad choices on some things. I learned things the hard way I have outlasted many that said I couldn't do it .
I have helped many that worked for me start their own business .
Working for your self is not for everyone it's a lot of work. I like to work .
People on this FF have helped me out with my milling endeavor more than they know .
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

tule peak timber

I see things changing here over the last year, and it is concerning to say the least. lots of "competition'. Which way does a smart man go ???? 

  

 
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

Ianab

Another way of looking at it is we are encouraging the small scale timber industry as a whole. Not everyone is going to be relying on the retail sale of wood, or operating a sawmill etc. Land owners want markets for their trees. Loggers and truckers want the work harvesting those trees. Milling, drying, machining, through to making end products, there are lots of niches in the chain.

Now if you try and work in a vacuum keeping your operation "top secret", where to the supply and market end come from? If the whole concept that you can buy locally produced lumber or furniture is unknown to the general public, who's going to buy your product?

From that point of view it's arguably better to encourage the industry as a whole, and then sort out which niche(s) of it you can slot into. Some folks run tree farms, others furniture shops, and all the steps in between.

Other option is to give up and just have everyone buy all their stuff from China...
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

tule peak timber

 

  I can guarantee the nose on this fish will always point in the right direction to make business decisions.
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

petefrom bearswamp

Dang! I just was typing a pretty long response here and my computer bailed out on me losing the whole thing tooo frustrating.
This has happened to me several times.
I'll try again when I cool off
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

Chop Shop

Quote from: YellowHammer on July 03, 2017, 05:40:59 PM

Its no different than somebody asking what kind of lure the fish as biting on, or what I caught last week.  In many ways, fishing is an art, and some things just don't translate.  If they did, we would all be professional fisherman just by reading magazines, watching TV shows, and visiting tournament venues.  It just isn't going to happen.  But that doesn't mean there's no reason not to help someone catch more fish. 

   Even if they cant catch fish, your still rubbing elbows with 5000 people on every lake or river out here.

I get what your all saying, but Ive never seen a successful prospector give advice. 

There used to be a term used before the internet, "Trade secrets".

jemmy

Quote from: Chop Shop on July 04, 2017, 12:43:32 PM

   Even if they cant catch fish, your still rubbing elbows with 5000 people on every lake or river out here.

I get what your all saying, but Ive never seen a successful prospector give advice. 

There used to be a term used before the internet, "Trade secrets".

I understand your concerns and your points have validity. However, do to the complexity, labor intensity, risk, and over all investment (financial, emotional, physical, etc) this stuff is not for everyone. As you probably already know this line of work is not for the vast majority of people. However, there is that sliver of people that are crazy, smart, and courageous enough to take on this field of work. I love this stuff so far! This stuff keeps me on my toes and I find the challenge exciting and energizing so I really think this stuff is for me.

Now trade secrets are very important, however, if you could save someone a butt load of money would you not do it? Especially if they are not stepping on your toes? I feel like this business does better when networks are developed. I got to talk with Yellow Hammer for an hour and half and one big thing that I took home was that its beneficial all around when you can make others successful. Also another thing I have realized is that most people have varying opinions and its up to the audience to choose the right path. I have a plan from this thread of what I'm going to do with my slabs, but I could easily go belly up and lose my shirt. That's business, and why its not for everyone.

Side note I picked up a used 090. I am hopeful that this saw will be in decent condition, I will let you guys know when it gets here on the 11th! I will have pics and video as soon as its available.
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

tule peak timber

Quote from: Chop Shop on July 04, 2017, 12:43:32 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on July 03, 2017, 05:40:59 PM

Its no different than somebody asking what kind of lure the fish as biting on, or what I caught last week.  In many ways, fishing is an art, and some things just don't translate.  If they did, we would all be professional fisherman just by reading magazines, watching TV shows, and visiting tournament venues.  It just isn't going to happen.  But that doesn't mean there's no reason not to help someone catch more fish. 

   Even if they cant catch fish, your still rubbing elbows with 5000 people on every lake or river out here.

I get what your all saying, but Ive never seen a successful prospector give advice. 

There used to be a term used before the internet, "Trade secrets".
An interesting analogy between fishing and big slabs, as I fished for a living for years. The first 6 years was horrible but eventually I was able to attract and keep good crew with dollars rolling in.Knowledge was very hard fought and no one was giving anything away. As a wood worker I sell my time and my knowledge. Rob
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

Ricker

I try to help people whenever I can, be it work life or personal life. I figure I will need a hand sometime and hopefully it will comeback to me and usually it does. As far as sawing or drying advice I think every new sawyer has benefited from someone explaining at least the basics to them.

Peter Drouin

It is a lot of work YH. And most don't want to work that hard.  ;)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Crusarius

I have not begun to do any sawing yet. I have still learned a ton from you guys. I thank you all very much for your willingness to teach.

Now I add one more thing that just popped into my head. If it wasn't for all the wonderful ppl on this forum and other places passing on the hard earned knowledge. What would the future look like?

Once again, thank you to everyone that has helped me in my crazy endeavors.

Darrel

I find that most of my competition doesn't come from the guy two miles down the dirt road with a newer, fancier LT40.  He has sent me jobs and I've sent him a few.

My competition comes from within. This is hard work on a hot day and I'd like to sit in the shade and sip iced tea. There are lots of things competing for my attention when the only benefit I feel like I'm getting from sawing is the sawdust in my pockets.  I don't see myself breaking even in my niche (western juniper flooring) for another year.  The knowledge is gained from this forum is as valuable as my mill. 

I really don't think that there is much chance of us educating our selves out of a job by Teaching each other the ropes.
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

Chop Shop

My concerns weren't so much for the mobile sawyer or lumber making fellow.

That's hard work that most folks don't have an interest in or give up quickly.


It was more about the folks that watch a few Youtube vids on chainsaw milling, then get a couple free logs and think they are going to get rich selling million dollar slabs on craigslist!

Most are pretty uninformed and think they are going to start turning out a product that sells for more than they invested in tools/time.

Just search "live edge" on craigslist in your local area and see how many have popped up recently.  TONS.

90 percent of them look like alligators chewed the slabs out.    I understand they are not going to compete for the same customer looking for a $1500 conference room table slab, but they are cutting into the 1-300$ market fairly quickly.    Five $300 slabs are easier/faster to sell than that conference table slab but total the same $ numbers.

When a person has 20-40,000$ wrapped up in slab mills, and support equipment its gets kinda frustrating having to compete with folks that are here for the short term with $1000 in a chainsawmill.

3/4 of the folks that are flooding the market with cheap slabs will be on to something different soon.    Attention spans are getting shorter everyday.  But the impact on the market lasts longer because every time one guy bgives up there are two right behind him to buy that old CSM off craigslist and go at it again.

Chop Shop

Quote from: Crusarius on July 05, 2017, 08:16:54 AM

Now I add one more thing that just popped into my head. If it wasn't for all the wonderful ppl on this forum and other places passing on the hard earned knowledge. What would the future look like?



In the olden days before the internet you BOUGHT a few books and read them over and over.  You PAID for the priceless knowledge that someone else learned and was willing to pass on/sell to you.

The rest you learned on the job the hard way.   And once you were a master of your trade you didn't just want to hand that info out to every Tom, Dick and Harry.

Knowledge is PRICELESS and the only thing that equals it in value is EXPERIENCE.


Why would a man GIVE experience and knowledge away for free after working so hard for it?


Its funny how there are so many threads on here about "paying your dues".  You cant sell a crusty ol worn out mill on this forum without paying the admin, but you can GIVE away priceless INFO all day long for FREE.

Like I said, it doesn't help anyone but the sawmill MFGing and support tool industry.

Anyways,, my rants are over.  You dont have to agree with me, but please take a look at this from different views.

Boeing doesn't give Airbus advice, GM doesn't consult with Ford, and Costco isn't sharing marketing advice with Walmart.

Just my $.02 

tule peak timber

persistence personified - never let up , never let down

grouch

Let's shut down The Forestry Forum and weldingweb and garagejournal and wikipedia and the whole Internet; too much "priceless" knowledge leaking out around the world.

Let's return to the Dark Ages where only guild members were allowed to learn the deep, dark secrets of their particular trade.

Let's all emulate GM, Ford, et. al. because it will be a better world when each of us becomes a cold, impersonal, uncaring, unfeeling legal construct whose primary purpose is to extract money from others. After all, if we get good enough at it, we can afford to ignore some of those pesky laws the others come up with; we just pay 'em off.

Let's get everything we can before we become worm food, regardless of who we trample to get it, and leave a legacy of a dark, selfish, ignorant, barbarian world worse than what we inherited.
Find something to do that interests you.

tule peak timber

It is Wednesday and I have had one contractor and one engineer want to work with me for free to learn so far since Sunday. Tomorrow I have an extremely talented young woodworker who sought me out and wants an hour of my time to seek employment as he has already sent his resume. 30 minutes after he leaves, I have an instructor from one of the woodworking colleges coming here. So, it is Wednesday and that is the count so far of people who want to know what the heck I am doing.
Last week; calls from N. CA and emails from Oregon just dying to sell me slabs...yikes.
Grouch has a good idea. No internet, no FF and force people to go out and develop the knowledge on their own. Grouch I don't believe that was your intent but the internet is a place where people fish for guesses and land answers they like. You may quote me on this. The slab business is bulging here on the west coast with green, screwed up garages full of product and I get contacted by several people weekly to help them get unscrewed. Caveat emptor to anyone who wants to start a business of any kind doing anything, unless they are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice; divorce, sell everything you own for cash flow, live in your car, [I have typed a profane word that is automatically changed by the forum censored words program I should know better] in a bucket, borrow ungodly amounts of $, travel and work for people for free, work all day, STAY UP ALL NIGHT AND STUDY the subject. Do that for a few years and you may see adequacy. You reap what you sow and be darned happy to have that.
I personally really like the FF and hope to keep contributing.
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

Peter Drouin

I sell 2 or 4 a year, maybe, :D :D :D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Chop Shop

Quote from: grouch on July 05, 2017, 06:38:03 PM

Let's all emulate GM, Ford, et. al. because it will be a better world when each of us becomes a cold, impersonal, uncaring, unfeeling legal construct whose primary purpose is to extract money from others. After all, if we get good enough at it, we can afford to ignore some of those pesky laws the others come up with; we just pay 'em off.

Let's get everything we can before we become worm food, regardless of who we trample to get it, and leave a legacy of a dark, selfish, ignorant, barbarian world worse than what we inherited.

I don't expect Ford or Gm to GIVE me a truck for free.  If I think they offer a good product for a fair price then I buy their product which is made from their experience/knowledge in the auto industry.

Unfortunately I cant pay my mortgage and insurance with good intentions and free labor.

I expect to get paid for my work/product and have no problem paying others for theirs.   If the product is good and the price is fair then everyone is happy.

What you are referring to sounds an awful lot like socialism.   This country was built and thrives on capitalism.   Its healthy and needed for prosperity.

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