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Timber frame layout square

Started by rjwoelk, March 02, 2018, 05:01:52 PM

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rjwoelk

I have been looking a getting one of these, what is the benifit of one kind over another. I wish there was more info video showing how to use one, say timberframe headquarters one to others.
So far I just use a square and combination square.
Lt15 palax wood processor,3020 JD 7120 CIH 36x72 hay shed for workshop coop tractor with a duetz for power plant

Jim_Rogers

Have you seen my YouTube video?

Jim Rogers 
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

opticsguy

OK Jim, what You-tube video?  
TK 1220 band mill,  1952 Ford F-2, 1925 Dodge touring, too many telescopes.

Jim_Rogers

Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

flyingparks

These must work great. Price is a bit high for me. I made something slightly similar out of plexiglass. It sounds better when it hits the ground. In fact, I make a bunch of templates for a particular frame out of plexiglass. It makes laying out joints so much easier and faster...and in my case, more accurate. One day I'll pony up the dough for one of these Big Als but for now the one I made for myself works just fine. It didn't take very long to make. When I pull my tools outta storage in coupe months I'll post a photo.

Brad_bb

The other one that is available is from Timber Frame HQ.  I'm trying to find out if there's a video that explains the features.   I bought the one that Jim shows.  This Timber Frame HQ one came out after I'd bought my Big Al.  I also heard that the Big Al is not available.  Maybe that was/is temporary, not sure?
Timber Frame Layout Tool - Timber Frame HQ
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

rjwoelk

At $250.00 Canadian, I would like to see a full video of everything the TimberFrame Headquarters unit can do, I asked them about it when it came out, but they still have not made one. 
Lt15 palax wood processor,3020 JD 7120 CIH 36x72 hay shed for workshop coop tractor with a duetz for power plant

Dave Shepard

Big Al all the way. That new fangled contraption compromises the features of the original tool in exchange for a heavier, more expensive tool.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Brian_Weekley

Is anyone selling the Big-Al anymore?  I don't see it on the TFG website.
e aho laula

Jim_Rogers

Old style Big AL is still being made and sold by Vintage Tool NE
It is available in this site's for sale section
I will try and do a video about the new one
Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Stuart Caruk

I haven't found it either, but it would be a cinch to whip up a few of these on our Sharp. I could even incorporate ideas that others have found useful. Personally I think a simpler tool is a better way to go. I especially like some of the thoughts Jim Rogers brought forth in his video.
Stuart Caruk
Wood-Mizer LX450 Diesel w/ debarker and home brewed extension, live log deck and outfeed rolls. Woodmizer twin blade edger, Barko 450 log loader, Clark 666 Grapple Skidder w/ 200' of mainline. Bobcats and forklifts.

Brad_bb

Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Jim_Rogers

Thanks for posting that. I found my video camera and my lapel mic but the voice recorder I use with the mic's batteries are dead. I need to get new batteries so I can do a video.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Jim_Rogers

Here is a video showing some tips and features of the new Timber Frame Head Quarters layout template, that I have nicknamed the "new AL".....

TFHQ layout template tips - YouTube

Sorry about the windy audio quality.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

rjwoelk

Lt15 palax wood processor,3020 JD 7120 CIH 36x72 hay shed for workshop coop tractor with a duetz for power plant

flyingparks

Nice video, Jim. The tool is on the long list.

TimFromNB

Update: See next page for update on replaced square.

Hi Guys - apologize for the long post in advance! ;D

I bought one of these a while back. Only started using it today as I am starting my layout. I double checked my measurements with my framing square and combo square and noticed that on one side of the TF layout square, the measurements on the timbers are off. Not by much, but considering the price I paid plus shipping and import fees to Canada, I am slightly disappointed. The other side is almost spot on. I kept it stored standing up and without something else weighing on it (not saying it's impossible I somehow bent it).

There is a slight curve to it, and the base is not 100% square to the ruler grid.



 

On the side of the base that is out of square away from the ruler (left 1st in picture), there is no problem with measeruments because the zero mark of the base registers fully with the timber edge. See below (using 2x for example).



 

However, on the side of the base that is out of square towards the ruler (right in 1st picture), the "zero" mark of the base can't make contact with the edge because is out of square and the edge of the base is touching but not the inside corner of the base. Hence the offset I am finding in my measurements. If I press the base into the timber (very hard), it almost fixes the problem (I am pushing it back into square). But it springs right back when I take the pressure off.



 

Below shows the offset. You can see on the "1 1/2, 2 1/2, 3 1/2" scale that it registered spot on at 2 1/2" from the edge. It is the "1,2,3,4" scale that is off. Pencil is sharp and up tight to the square's slot.  

Should I worry about this and try to straighten/square it up, stop using it, or am I splitting hairs and should just keep on trucking?






Any advice is appreciated!

Thanks,
Tim

Roger Nair

Tim, I would check the lines at 2.5 and 5 with a digital caliper and verify the deviation of the marks and the machining on the tool.  2.5 looks close to dead on and 5 looks somewhere between 1/16 to 1/32 off, however parallax in the photo maybe an issue.  I would try my best to account for the source of error and then call or email the dealer.  Errors of machining over a 1/100 would give me cause to complain.  Also give close consideration to user error or loose technique and pay close attention to line offset to  scale edge when marking on the inside edge of bar vs outside edge of bar, that could be a source of accumulation of error.  How the pencil is pointed and held should be critiqued.  
An optimist believes this is the best of all possible worlds, the pessimist fears that the optimist is correct.--James Branch Cabell

Jim_Rogers

One of my first lessons I learned in timber framing was the difference between measuring instruments.
The instructor drew a line on a timber and then asked each student to bring their tape measure over and measure the line. Not many of them got the same measurement.
The lesson was use one measuring instrument on your frame layout and use it for only layout.
Here at my shop/yard, I have two tape measures. One I use at the mill and another that I only use for timber frame layout. If my layout is off, by some minor amount, the entire frame is off by that same amount everywhere. It really doesn't make that much a difference.

Now, I have the new layout template and the old one. I use both at times depending on what I'm doing.

I have just checked my "new" layout template to see if mine matches yours or if yours is just a "bad one".

When I measure both sides of my new one with my steel combination ruler I get the same error you get.
See below:


 

now the other side:



 

As you can see in the second photo the line for 2" lines up with the line on the template.
In the first photo the lines are off a fraction.

Now, understanding what I said about different measuring instruments being different let's now look at this again:





In the above picture the 2" mark is dead on.
In the below picture the 1" mark is dead on. As mentioned the angle of the camera makes the other lines appear to be off.



 

So, which is right? The steel combination ruler or the wooden folding ruler.

My point is you will get different measurement using different tools.

When I use my new layout template to layout, say a tenon:



 
I get a line along the 3" space/slot. This line is of course a pencil line.

Many years ago, a student asked me: "where to I make the cut? on the right side of the pencil line? on the left side of the pencil line?"

I once as my timber framing teacher this question and he told me to cut the pencil line down the middle. Can you do that? with a hand saw or a skil saw?

I don't even try.

One teacher taught us to use a knife and knife the line. The knife line is absolute. I knife all my lines and then I cut next to the knife line with my skil saw or hand saw. And then if it's not completely accurate, I pare away the wood to the knife line with my chisel, slick or other cutting edge tools.

We want to be as accurate as we can be, because when the timber dries, things shrink and gaps open up. So you need to be as accurate as you can when you cut your joints. But there is a limit to how accurate you can actually be.

If you really feel your template is out of shape then I would suggest you contact the seller.
Good luck.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: Jim_Rogers on July 01, 2018, 10:18:01 AMWe want to be as accurate as we can be, because when the timber dries, things shrink and gaps open up.

Jim, I defer to you vast experience but I still wonder.  If both pieces in a joint are of the same type of wood (soft or hard) and of the same initial MC, wouldn't the shrinking of each piece offset each other.  That is, the tenon shrinks as well as the wood around the mortise.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Dave Shepard

Does the new tool have pencil allowances? The later original Als did.

Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

bricecochran

TimfromNB - We would be happy to send you another square, can you send me an email with your contact info at brice@timberframehq.com and we will get it in the mail.  
Brice

Jim_Rogers

Quote from: Dave Shepard on July 01, 2018, 11:27:49 AM
Does the new tool have pencil allowances? The later original Als did.
Good question, maybe Brice can answer that. I do have a new one here that I can test. And the latest version of the old "Big AL" does come with a printed instruction sheet.
Here is a picture of it:


 
Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

TimFromNB

John, my understanding is that shrinkage is generally greater in the diameter section than in length of the timber.

Also, in the case of a tenoned horizontal member going into a vertical mortised timber, the mortise will shrink towards the center of the timber, potentially creating a gap in that shoulder joint.


TimFromNB

Brice, will get in contact with you by email.

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