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Looking for some advice/experience HVAC PLAN for Permit

Started by badger1, August 19, 2018, 01:07:06 PM

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badger1

Currently in the process of pulling permits for my upcoming project. 24x30 single story on a poured basement. NW Wisconsin location. 

The basement was existing (along with well and septic installed already) the project was started and burned down, I purchased the property and cleaned it up and was able to pull a temp permit just to set the floor trusses and sheet the deck, capping the basement for the winter. That was last winter. Everything went well. 

I am now working on pulling the permit for the rest of the project. I have my plans, estimates etc but I also need an HVAC plan. This is a basic 24x30 rectangle basement with 1BD 1Bth above it, LR and some stairs, open kitchen. It's about the most simple design a guy could get. The house plans I had drawn up by a friend who works at a lumber yard. I contacted a contractor in the area (there arent many out in the sticks where I am) and he has been dragging his feet getting back to me despite a couple calls and emails. 

I dont know everything involved in putting together the plan. As far as I can tell it will show supply/return lines coming off a trunk running down the middle of the basement I assume. I have webbed floor trusses so it probably doesnt get any easier running duct work than that for 30' of straight run. I havent been able to find a decent website that has a calculator for exchanges etc or layout necessities. I found one and they wanted me to pay to use their calculator. Maybe I'm not looking at the right websites? I called my building inspector and he said "thats something your HVAC contractor iwll provide"...not tons of help there and I dont know how much he even looks at it, as once he gets paid everything is sent to the state anyway. 

Does anyone have any experience with HVAC plans, basic like mine? Could you provide a picture of what it entails so I at least have an idea. Did you DIY on the HVAC plan? Run any ductwork yourself? I have done extensive reno on my own houses but have never build from the ground up, needing to pull significant permits, so this is a first for me and Im hoping that some of you more experienced with this could explain or give me more info, make recommendations or tell me where to look to get a plan put together to satisfy my application and get a permit to start.

Thanks for any input 
Contact me via PM, willing to help with projects for more experience
1986 Woodmizer LT30, STIHL MS261C, 1997 Dodge 2500 CUMMINS

Southside

Can't help with anything technical, but do you NEED a HVAC permit or could you just show a window mount and say baseboard heat to get the inspection over with and do what you want later?
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

badger1

Quote from: Southside logger on August 19, 2018, 01:58:13 PM
Can't help with anything technical, but do you NEED a HVAC permit or could you just show a window mount and say baseboard heat to get the inspection over with and do what you want later?
This is a very good idea I think. I hadnt even considered this! I agree, perhaps the best course of action is to speak with the inspector and ask what is necessary assuming electric baseboards in the rooms and no air conditioning. Then once the project is done if I want to install a furnace and duct work I can. 
I think this is a good alternative way to approach the problem, thank you! I remember considering this option some time ago but had kind of forgot about it and assumed I'd have a furnace and duct work put in. To be honest I dont know how much more expensive it would be to run electric baseboard anyway as a heating source in such a small footprint of 24x30. The heating would only be set at perhaps 50F when I wasnt there over the winter, and when I was there I will run a wood stove (as much free wood as I want). So it might take quite some time to get a ROI of savings on say a $3-4K furnace/duct work install. Assuming the cost of keeping the structure at 40-50F for 6 months when i wont be there everyday to fire the stove is an extra $200/mo it would take me just over 3 years to make that up assuming a $4k install, if its $5k then it takes me  a little over 4 years. 
I dont know if my estimate of $4k to purchase a furnace and have duct work ran is high or low, I think labor in the area is probably lower than the national average BUT I havent got an estimate so I really have no idea. I also dont know if the extra $200/mo is high or low to maintain temps in the home just above freezing when I am not there. Those two questions will take more investigation. 
Thanks for the idea! I'd like to hear others input on the original question as well as this possible solution. 
Another solution might be to just plumb the place so I am able to winterize it when I'm not there, then the baseboard could be used when/if I sold the place by folks if they wanted to supplement the wood stove, although 90% of the people up there heat with wood, it's very cheap and there is a never ending supply, most everybody works in the woods anyway...
Contact me via PM, willing to help with projects for more experience
1986 Woodmizer LT30, STIHL MS261C, 1997 Dodge 2500 CUMMINS

Don P

That should work but it might change your electric plan too much if it ends up going a different way. I'd look into DIY mini split or a DIY radiant slab as well, those websites likely have free design software or tables.

I've never had to submit an HVAC plan. One thing if you are going to use the stock trunk opening in your open web trusses, leave them access to slide that in in one piece from an end.

badger1

Quote from: Don P on August 19, 2018, 04:36:19 PM
That should work but it might change your electric plan too much if it ends up going a different way. I'd look into DIY mini split or a DIY radiant slab as well, those websites likely have free design software or tables.
I'm not familiar with what a mini split is, and I dont think I can do a radiant slab because as I said, the basement is already poured and in place. Full basement is already in place and capped with floor trusses, sheeting.

I'd like to be able to winterize the place also, so was planning got run all Pex to low points for easy draining and a tankless water heater etc. 

I was actually just googling alternative heating options and was reading about heat pumps, unfortunately I don think it would work in my area as the outside temps get much too cold, not uncommon to see -30F in a winter, sometimes for quite a while. 

Hopefully the baseboard plan will be enough to get the permit, and I'll have more time to research and plan, discuss if I want to stick to that route or figure out a way to put a furnace in. The more I think about it, there are even more expenses associated with installing a furnace than I initially considered, including the natural gas, tanks, rentals, connections, installation of furnace, duct work etc. Could end up costing quite a bit. I'm very DIY and will be doing 90%+ of this project on my own, so there will be a learning curve either way. 

Contact me via PM, willing to help with projects for more experience
1986 Woodmizer LT30, STIHL MS261C, 1997 Dodge 2500 CUMMINS

1938farmall

pretty sure in wis. you are going to have to show them all your r-value calc's for wall & ceiling insulation as well as windows.
aka oldnorskie

badger1

Quote from: 1938farmall on August 19, 2018, 05:42:54 PM
pretty sure in wis. you are going to have to show them all your r-value calc's for wall & ceiling insulation as well as windows.
I believe the insulation calcs were provided in the plans from the lumber yard, I just need the HVAC plan. 
Contact me via PM, willing to help with projects for more experience
1986 Woodmizer LT30, STIHL MS261C, 1997 Dodge 2500 CUMMINS

Southside

My first home was a 30' x 30', single story, on a slab, on a lake shore in northern Maine. -20 was common, -40 was a few times every winter. 2x4 walls, couple big picture windows. Wood heat was my primary but the sweet thing was that the kitchen and bathroom were on one side of the house and all the plumbing was there. I had a hinged wall that I could close when it was cold and kept those two rooms at 50F using two small wall mounted electric heaters. I don't think my bill was ever $100/month.  

Another option would be a direct vent monitor heater, eventually I installed one of their small units in the house and it kept the whole place warm.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

thecfarm

I sure don't know. But one thing I know is put your fill hose next to the driveway. Beats keeping a path clear on the other side of the house for the oil,gas guy.
No idea if you are thinking about a chimney for wood either. I did make a mistake on that one. My oil flue is by the ridge,than the fireplace,than the wood stove one. Kinda hard to reach it when it's 10 feet down the roof and than 7 feet high. :o 
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

badger1

Quote from: Southside logger on August 19, 2018, 08:02:04 PM
My first home was a 30' x 30', single story, on a slab, on a lake shore in northern Maine. -20 was common, -40 was a few times every winter. 2x4 walls, couple big picture windows. Wood heat was my primary but the sweet thing was that the kitchen and bathroom were on one side of the house and all the plumbing was there. I had a hinged wall that I could close when it was cold and kept those two rooms at 50F using two small wall mounted electric heaters. I don't think my bill was ever $100/month.  

Another option would be a direct vent monitor heater, eventually I installed one of their small units in the house and it kept the whole place warm.  
I had considered the wall mount direct vent, I dont know that I have an area or location I would wanna put it, I'm not real crazy about the baseboards as it is, this thing is small at 24x30 and when you get that divided up rooms are "cozy"...
I'll have 2x6 walls, sounds like the northern Maine weather is similar to ours in Northern WI. I've been to Maine twice and loved it, actually felt very much like home (WI) besides the ocean, very rustic, I think its one of my favorite states, always loved it out west (MT) but I think Maine is right up there too.....besides WI/MN of course. 
Contact me via PM, willing to help with projects for more experience
1986 Woodmizer LT30, STIHL MS261C, 1997 Dodge 2500 CUMMINS

jwilly3879

Contact your local supplier for hvac. They will usually spec a system from your plans at no charge.

badger1

Quote from: jwilly3879 on August 21, 2018, 08:28:26 PM
Contact your local supplier for hvac. They will usually spec a system from your plans at no charge.
Yes thats the way it usually would go, however it's very limitd up there for suppliers/contractors and the main sub up there has been dragging his feet and hard to get a ahold of, so thats the main issue. To be honest I wouldnt mind having the furnace and duct work put in, just a hassle to have to coordinate and motivate this guy. 
Contact me via PM, willing to help with projects for more experience
1986 Woodmizer LT30, STIHL MS261C, 1997 Dodge 2500 CUMMINS

flyingparks

Have you looked into mini splits as someone suggested? They are simple and easy to install. They usually require an electrician. If you are building your own house you can certainly come up with your own HVAC plan. And yes, you could install it yourself if you get some basic knowledge. You would probably do a better job than most installers, honestly. Come up with a good system, not just one that will satisfy the plans examiner. A balanced system is important. I did radiant floor heat and I have an ERV to circulate air. I am very happy with this system. Depending on how airtight your house will be its worth it to look into an ERV for circulation.

My neighbor just installed infrared heaters that are similar to electric baseboard heaters except they are mounted at the top of the wall and are much more efficient. Message me and I'll provide you that companies info. They look really sleek. My own opinion: ditch the forced air. Boilers seem to have a 10 year lifespan these days and ductwork gets dirty fast and then you and your family are breathing in all of those allergens. Heat does not rise, but hot air does.

badger1

Thanks for all the replies, PM sent. 

This is a picture of the main floor for reference. 

 
Contact me via PM, willing to help with projects for more experience
1986 Woodmizer LT30, STIHL MS261C, 1997 Dodge 2500 CUMMINS

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