iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

First Thinning a Pine Plantation in the South

Started by WDH, September 15, 2009, 09:32:12 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Lanier_Lurker

That is pretty indeed.  I did not know you had hills like that in MN.  I thought it was pretty flat up there.

The extreme upper Mississippi River is a place I want to go fishing before I die.

Mooseherder

Quote from: Lanier_Lurker on September 19, 2009, 01:13:16 AM
Quote from: Mooseherder on September 18, 2009, 10:11:12 PM
Wow.   We passed by your place on several occasions on the way up to Sautee.  We Won't make that mistake again.  ;)

Sautee, as in Rabun County?

Yes, just outside of Helen.

Gary_C

WDH, I did not plan to be the sole operator on this job but the guy that helps me sometimes could not help for a number of reasons. From the edge of the stand it takes an hour and 20 minutes to drive the forwarder down the hill to the landing, load the wood on the truck and return. It takes 3 trips for a semi load so there is four hours of the day gone.

On your stand, how did you determine how much to cut? Is it by basal area or spacing? The forester on my job wanted me to get a ten factor gauge but I just went by guess and by golly. He said I was very consistent at between 10 and 11 and always said I could take one more tree. Truth be told, I went by spacing and took the row in front of me and just opened up the spacing between trees taking the forked and deformed ones first. In the White pine stand it was almost impossible to see the rows and I just started with the infected trees and meandered thru where I could. Then I went back and opened up dark areas by taking more trees.

The White pine did better than the Red and there were some 18 inch diameter trees. The Red would have done better if the DNR had thinned them earlier as they were supressed by the crowed spacing. Blister rust had thinned the White pine but there was a lot of invaders in the stand like elm, boxelder, and ash.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Lanier_Lurker

Quote from: Mooseherder on September 19, 2009, 10:44:52 AM
Quote from: Lanier_Lurker on September 19, 2009, 01:13:16 AM
Quote from: Mooseherder on September 18, 2009, 10:11:12 PM
Wow.   We passed by your place on several occasions on the way up to Sautee.  We Won't make that mistake again.  ;)

Sautee, as in Rabun County?

Yes, just outside of Helen.

I know that area well.  Just up the road a bit from here.

stonebroke

Gary  How far do you forward it to take that long? Is it really worth it or did they give you a good deal?

Stonebroke

WDH

Gary, in this case, I view basal area as more important than spacing as long as the spacing is not extreme.  I was shooting for about 60 square feet of basal area for this first thin.  This is about equal to 175 trees/acres on a perfectly square spacing of 16 feet between trees.  Of course, the spacing is not square, so we shoot for the correct basal area and trees/acres, and everything works out.  This is a lower basal area than most would be comfortable with, but my experience has been that to get the best diameter growth, you have to let the remaining crowns be free to grow.  Loblolly will naturally prune much better than the norway and white pine, so that is an advantage to jump-start diameter growth for us in the South.   

The stand in this pic was thinned to 50 square feet at age 13 (in 2000).  It is age 20 in this pic, and you can see the good diameter growth.  However, to be fair, this stand was hand pruned to 18 feet (by yours truly), and it was fertilized with ammonium nitrate at age 13, so these results may not be typical.





In general, my opinion is that most people are too conservative in their thinning, leaving too many trees to get the best individual tree growth and product lift.  For example, if pulpwood is worth 1, then small logs (we call this small log Chip-n-saw) is worth 2 - 2.5, and sawlogs (14" DBH and up) are worth 4.5.  This index is based on a typical timber market.  The moral is that you cannot afford to grow a bunch of low value pulpwood stems.  The key is to hit the sweet spot and get maximum diameter growth without sacrificing stem quality to get to the sawlog stage as soon as possible.  The average diameter of this stand is pushing 12" in 2007, so I am getting close.  After the next thin, I will be there on many of the residual stems.  Some are there already in 2009.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

stonebroke

How big can you let the trees grow down south? I imagine after all the work of thinning and pruning you would want to go for a relatively big tree.

Stonebroke

SwampDonkey

That's some fine work there by you gentlemen. Shows some pride and expertise in what you do and what you are looking after. I was also wondering about your forwarding distances Gary. With any harvesting on sites we have been brushing, it appears they have not forwarded longer than 600 meters to a landing and mostly under 300 meters. This was virgin forest before harvest. We are just spacing the natural regen, mostly red spruce some places a lot of fir and black spruce to. These spruce species don't put on girth very quick, the fir is usually 2-3 times the girth. And some places the fir isn't worth snot. We are working on a fill plant right now though, black spruce was filled into red spruce and balsam fir naturals. Sure a lot of double stemmed planted trees.  ::) But, I have been brushing an acre and a half a day.  Works out to $272 a day. ;D This is a 110 acre site.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

Quote from: stonebroke on September 20, 2009, 12:04:28 PM
How big can you let the trees grow down south? I imagine after all the work of thinning and pruning you would want to go for a relatively big tree.

Stonebroke

The forest industry is the South has moved rotation age down and down over the last 15 years.  Most are targeting for a rotation age of 26 -28 years.  With conventional thinning stocking, this results in trees that are in the 12" - 14" DBH range.  With my more aggressive thinning and pushing the rotation age out to  30 - 32 years, I am targeting for a 16" - 18+" final harvest DBH.  Economics has driven the rotation down for industry, and while economics are important to me, I have other objectives like promoting wild turkey, deer, and quail habitat.  I have a very healthy turkey population.  The other day while in the woods, I saw 9 gobblers cross the woods road in single file about 15 feet apart.  I also flushed a wild covey of quail, and that warmed my heart.  The turkey, deer, and quail benefit from the heavier thinning coupled with the use of prescribed fire.  In the understory, there are many grasses, herbs, and forbs that provide the quality food for the wildlife.  I am sacrificing just a little in terms of maximum timber volume production, but I am hoping to make that up with better timber diameter and a thriving wildlife population.  I do not hunt much anymore, but my son in law and nephew provide me with venison  ;D.  I have not let anyone hunt the turkeys and quail, but I will encourage my son in law to take a shot at a gobbler this spring since I believe the population is very healthy.

The sad thing is, if you had to go and buy the land at the market price today and grow timber as an objective with the intent to show a return on investment, and if you include the price of the bare land and assume there is no future real estate or development value, you would be better off putting your money in CD's.  However, somebody has to own land, and if you do own land with the intent of holding on to it, then it makes sense to aggressively manage the timber resource.

Sorry for the long response to a short, simply question :).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

stonebroke

I would think after pruning you could go for a 24 to 36 inch tree that would be mostly valuable clear wood. Or don't you have the premium for clear that we have in white pine?

Stonebroke

WDH

No, the premium does not justify the time it would take to get that size.  The natural white pines that are the size you mention may be 75 to 100 years old or more.  You cannot afford to grow wood that size commercially in a plantation environment in this area. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Gary_C

Quote from: stonebroke on September 20, 2009, 07:13:36 AM
Gary  How far do you forward it to take that long? Is it really worth it or did they give you a good deal?

Stonebroke

Quote from: SwampDonkey on September 20, 2009, 01:21:37 PM
I was also wondering about your forwarding distances Gary. With any harvesting on sites we have been brushing, it appears they have not forwarded longer than 600 meters to a landing and mostly under 300 meters.

Forwarding distances are a huge problem on most of these pine job in SE MN. There are a lot of these pine plantations on scattered parcels that are access challenged and in bad need of thinning. Here is a picture I took earlier this spring when I orignally looked at this job. The green area is my landing on state land and the one lane minimum maintenance road you see goes up along the side of that hill to a crest, makes a sharp left turn and goes back down along another side hill, all on state land. Then it makes another sharp horseshoe turn to the left and makes a steep climb along another side hill to the top with one sharp right turn to the right, with that part on private land. Trust me, it's no place for a semi with a 45 foot flatbed.





The job has been very good one with very low stumpage prices because of the poor access and because there was over twice the volume of red pine that was on the sale bill. The down side has been the long forwarder travel and those machines are just not made for that, and the distance to the mill. I have now taken 25 semi loads of about 26 tons each from this job since the first of July for an average of two loads per week. Even in these slow thinning jobs that harvester should easily cut two loads per day.

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Gary_C

I am just finishing my thinning job this week. Just some cleanup of small skipped pockets on the pine and some Aspen to cut around the edges to remove. Here is what the red Pine looks like. I was told by the forester that it came out at a basal area of 11 on his ten factor prism. His target was 100 or 10 on the prism.





And here is the White Pine on the other side of the road. Target BA was 80 or 8 and actual is about 9. Blister rust had thinned it already causing those open areas.





I am just amazed when I compare this stand with yours, WDH. If these tracts were thinned to your levels, the buck thorn and other brush would take over. In fact the job I just finished prior to this one was on a small tract of European Larch that was about 30 years old that had done well but the pests were starting to thin it out too much. And the brush was so tall that even sitting in the cab of the harvester, many times I could see over the junk to find the trees. I usually had to drive the brush down first to see what to cut. Here is a picture from that job with the obvious uncut areas on the left. You can see the tangled brush that had grown up where the Larch had died back too much.





Or WDH, is is just more agressive management that prevent your stands from turning into something like this:





Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

WDH

Gary, there are two reasons that I can go down to lower BA than what you see in your area.  One is that with the original density before thinning, the lower branches have died and are no longer green.  The are dead, so when you open up the stand to more sunlight, the crown responds, but the lower bole is not affected since loblolly does not epicormic branch (where you get new branches sprouting from the bole or trunk like you see in hardwoods).  In your conifer species, you have more live limbs lower on the bole at the same size and density as loblolly, so you cannot thin as aggressively else you might end up with wolfy limby trees.

The second reason is prescribed fire.  That keeps the hardwood brush from getting established and forming a dense understory.  This whole country down here was previously fire adapted before European settlement.  The native americans used fire to keep the woods clean.  Most landowners down here do not use fire anymore, and the public perceives fire as bad.  However, it is a powerful management tool in southern pine.

Most foresters in the South are more comfortable with a first thinning in the 70 - 80 basal area range which is 7 to 8 trees using the 10-factor prism.  So, that is about 25-30% lower than what you see in your area.  The most significant difference is the growth characteristics of the target species, norway/red/white pine versus loblolly pine.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

semologger

I am getting ready to cut another loblolly stand and the forester is wanting to use basal area this time. I ve never used it so it will be a differnt learning curve. It is a firest thinning.

WDH

Basal area is diameter dependent, so once you know tha average diameter of the trees, you can convert the basal area target to a pretty good estimate of trees/acre.  Here is how you do it.

Assumptions:  Lets say the BA target is 70 square feet.  Also lets assume that the average DBH of the trees to be left is 7". 

BA per tree = .005454  x  DBH squared

BA per tree = .005454  x  49  (7" squared)

BA per tree = .2673

So, to get to a total BA of 70 with the average tree having a BA of .2673, simply divide the BA target of 70 by the BA/tree of .2673 and the trees/acre = 262

To leave a perfect spacing while leaving 262 trees/acre, the perfect square spacing would be 13 feet by 13 feet.  This is determined by taking the number of square feet of area in an acre of 43560 and dividing by 262 trees.  So each tree occupies 166 square feet of area.  The square root of 166 is 12.89 feet. 

Good luck with the basal area experiment!  Keep us posted on how it works out.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Gary_C

Semologger, get the forester out there when you start or shortly thereafter and have him measure how you are doing. Even though as WDH said the BA is diameter dependent, I just went by spacing. In order to get the machine thru, I took one row and thinned two rows on either side. But with your more open stands and if you do not have a boom machine, you may not have to take a row.

But from the cab, my main thing to look for was spacing. First trees to cut were poor form trees and then space out trees to about ten feet minimum. Then you have to account for more open areas to adjust you spacings there. After you cut for a while, you eye is the best thing to use for that same look to the woods after you cut. Instead of looking at open areas, look for how many stems that block your view. And remember BA is the average over the area. You can have thick and thin areas.

On that job I am just finishing, it is part of a FSC audit this Thursday. Just happens the MN DNR is being audited this week. The forester on my job has said that I've nothing to worry about. Apparently none of the auditors are foresters. One is a botantist from CA. Another DNR Forester told me when he heard that the FSC Auditors were NOT coming to any of his jobs, he danced a little jig.  8)
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

beenthere

QuoteApparently none of the auditors are foresters. One is a botantist from CA

I think that combination would cause me to worry a lot.  ;D 

Being from CA is a worry in itself.

Not being a forester is a second worry.

Being a botanist and maybe thinking he/she needs to show off their authority is a third worry.

But don't worry, I'll do it for you  ;D ;D ;D
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

stonebroke

WDH   Does thinning to 70 BA ever cause you problems with blowdown?

Stonebroke

WDH

No, not at that stocking unless there is a hurricane.  With a hurricane, all bets are off.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

semologger

I am taking out ever 4th row on this job. We are wanting that over ever 3rd row if we have another ice storm again sometime. I started today and the average tree size is 8 inches to 10 inch. That varys in some areas. the forester is coming out in the morning and ill get some more info on what he wants done. I am going to have him mark a couple a little so i can get an eye for what spacing he is wanting to get. i am used to just doing select cut on short leaf pine thats not planted of around a 16 foot base. I will be using a my 221 hydro ax shear. Its a 3 wheeler machine like a bell. I am almost done putting in my post peeler mill. I  have a market for 3 inch to 8 inch post. I am going to be running it and buying the wood from my dad soon as its running.

I am thinking of planting a 35 acre field at my house in loblolly here pretty soon. I dont plan on getting any cows and all i do with the field is have my friends cut the hay off it just to keep it from growing up on me. but they only cut it once a year and its grown up again now.

Magicman

Quote from: semologger on September 30, 2009, 11:08:59 PM
I am thinking of planting a 35 acre field at my house in loblolly here pretty soon. I dont plan on getting any cows and all i do with the field is have my friends cut the hay off it just to keep it from growing up on me. but they only cut it once a year and its grown up again now.

That's the logic that I used before planting my open fields.  My tree farm is 46 miles away.  No way could I maintain a cattle herd.  I rented it out for a few years, but there was no long term plan.  I finally came to the decision that I needed a plan for the land's future.  In '05, I planted Lobloly seedlings.  Then in '08, I planted Oaks in the bottomland.  I now have the place registered as a Certified Tree Farm.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Raider Bill

How long will loblolly grow? I've got 35 acres of it that bowater planted. I assume they use it due to fast growing but does it reach a point where it will start to die off?
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

WDH

It will last over a hundred years, but after about 50 to 70 years, mortality will equal or exceed growth so that you end up with a negative growth rate.  That is not good for a forestry investment. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

ljmathias

Hey, Magicman, I live just down the road in Purvis south of Hattiesburg- couple of questions of general interest for us newbie tree herders: first, what type of oaks did you plant and why- for harvest or just to beautify and feed the wildlife?  Second, how does one go about becoming a certified tree farm?  I have a little over fifty acres under various kinds of tree growth- some was part of tree farming but that was all volunteer and not managed much at all. thanks for the help

Lj
LT40, Long tractor with FEL and backhoe, lots of TF tools, beautiful wife of 50 years plus 4 kids, 5 grandsons AND TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS all healthy plus too many ideas and plans and not enough time and energy

Thank You Sponsors!