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Double trunk rule of thumb

Started by Straightgrain, March 06, 2015, 09:27:49 PM

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Straightgrain

I'm "pan-handling" for advice on this tree; cut low and drop both at once, or cut them separately. My initial plan is to use a stable ladder and drop the right trunk first; going forward (as pictured) and then the left trunk to the left (as pictured).

Also plan to have the cable on each, and there are a few limbs on the upper tree I would remove before hand....

Plan "B" would be to use the 28" bar and drop them both forward with the cable pulling/helping.

Is there a logging Rule of Thumb (heuristic) on felling such a tree; I seen pics of the loggers in the 30's standing on oak planks @ 10' above the ground (where I would use a sturdy ladder as the split is @ 6' up), but no pics of a double trunk. 

I (and my heirs) release and hold harmless for any advice. ;D



 

Just wondering....
"We fight for and against not men and things as they are, but for and against the caricatures we make of them". Joseph Schumpeter

curdog

I'm not a logger, but I'd rather be on the ground with a good escape route then up on a ladder running a saw.

treeslayer2003

NO LADDER! i would fall them individual, if you can't reach it, i would rip the crotch down a little farther. they don't look to be very big but nothing to go by in pic.
falling twins together is always sketchy......i don't advise it. 

are you saying a 28 is your long bar?

coxy

if they are tight together and no seem crack going down id cut both together cut as low as you can

shortlogger

As long as the trunk is solid and not split I would fall them together, but honestly it's hard to give safe advice from a picture . If they are split I would probably notch one side and plunge through the center of the split and cut back twords the notch and fall one side at a time . But either way I would stay off the ladder . Cutting split trees can be dangerous lots of ways to mess up .
1 Corinthians 3:7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase . "NKJV"

sandsawmill14

Quote from: coxy on March 06, 2015, 09:53:03 PM
if they are tight together and no seem crack going down id cut both together cut as low as you can

x 2 that one will fall like one tree if the butt is sound as it appears in the pic. When I have to fall twins like that I always cut so they hit the ground beside each other instead of 1 on top the other. but this is just how I do it.       

Best advice I can give you if your not sure call a pro feller and watch how he does it.           That is a good pic but I dont think anyone could tell the best way without seeing the tree. :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

beenthere

For sure... NO LADDER.

Both at the same time, IMO as well. For what it is worth.

Cut an elm that was similar... but made a cut vertical down through a seam between the two stems.
Then a plunge (bore) cut (after the notch was made) to meet up with the vertical cut, and foward to establish hinge wood near the notch.
Was a bit bigger than my 20" bar, but felt safe cutting in from both sides.
south central Wisconsin
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Straightgrain

Thanks for all the replies!

I will take using the ladder out of the plan.

The 28" bar is currently my "longest bar for the 362r"; looking at getting a 461 next year and a longer bar with it.

The main trunk is sound (not much of a split); based on all the information I have so far, its looking like I'm gonna drop them both at the same time and to the right and forward (less limbs on that side of the upper tree) with a cable for insurance.

Gonna remove some limbs and do the "Swamp-Out" tomorrow and fell it on Monday.
"We fight for and against not men and things as they are, but for and against the caricatures we make of them". Joseph Schumpeter

sandsawmill14

hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Southside

Glad to hear you ditched the ladder.  How is the natural lean?  Looks like the up hill one is leaning into or up the hill?  Having the weight of the lower stem still attached would help with getting the whole tree to fall down hill.  Not sure I like the idea of the cable, but from the photo I can't tell what is around.  That cable could put a lot of stress onto a compromised stump resulting in a split and free fall. 

If it were me I would look to lay her down as one, if the split were a lot closer to the ground then I would do them one at a time, but not in this case.  Assuming the single stump is solid I would look to cut out my notch, then bore cut it to set the hinge as you don't want to have to dally around that stump when she goes and a bore cut will allow you to release it in a hurry.  I would also drive a wedge hard on each side of the bore cut right close to your final release cut.  Last thing you want is that beast setting back on you. The issue is with all that weight up there she could swing hard on you the wrong way.  The other thing I would do is wrap a strong chain around the single stem just above my cut line, wrap it tight then drive it down with a sledge hammer as close to the cut as you can get it to the cut without risk of hitting it.  This would help to prevent the stem from splitting and creating just about the worlds worst barber chair.  The bore cut will also help to prevent a chair. 

Make sure you have several escape routes ready to go. what are your plans for it?
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luvmexfood

I cut part of a fork off a tree from a ladder standing about 6 ft. up ONCE. Amazing how far you can throw a chainsaw while falling through the air even if it was only 6 ft. up.

Can't get the link to it but there is the you tube video of the limb hitting the guy who was way up on a ladder. Wonder what ever happened to him?
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

stoneeaglefarm

For sure cut both at once, Low as possible and cable will be all you need to get her over, Would not hurt to drive a couple of wedges in the back as you cut, Looks like it would naturally fall down hill with just a little help, Keep your back cut above your open face cut  from the front, Take your time, Sharp saw and be sure you have someone else around for safety. Good luck

Autocar

It looks to me the twins are grown togather so I would cut it as one tree. If you have a quedtion on if it will stay togather as one, wrap a log chain around it and boom it down about four or five feet off the ground. Ive cut doubles by doing that. You just want to make sure you cut notch on the heavy side and leave a little wood so it dosen't set down on your saw bar.
Bill

thenorthman

Put a wrapper on just above where you want to cut it, and cut it low...

If you insist on putting a cable in it just put it in the farthest back stem.

Personally I wouldn't be skart to just dump it with wedges and a good face cut. Unless there are high value targets near by... then I'd probably maybe? throw a line in it for peace of mind.

Ladders and chainsaws, any saws... are a bad combination... use the ladder if you have to, to hook the line in then get rid of it.
well that didn't work

treeslayer2003

i guess coming at this with a logger's prospective.......why would i cut it twice? that short fat chunk will have to be cut off any way. i would still fall them individual and leave the high stump.

nk14zp

A lot of guys recommending a bore cut witch is good however if you have never done it before that is not the best tree to learn on.
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lumberjack48

I blew the pic up 300 percent, the crack comes down about half way, i would fall them one at at time, stating with the out side one. Theres no need for a cable or wedges. Right where the crack ends is where you want to cut it off, looks like about 30 inchs up on the stump. Notch the out side one, then bore the bar straight into crack, it will start to fall, finish the cut. Then fall the other one. I would much rather cut it down at one time, but i feel that crack comes down to far.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Farmer Jim

I don't have as much experience as most here, but I do have experience on trying to fall a double as one when it should have been felled as 2. When I started cutting for myself 17 years back, I had a double cherry that I was sure would come down as one.  It/They came down at the same time, but not as one.  I had my escape planned based on where it would land as one.  Neither of them went where where I had planned which made finding an escape route very interesting when they went down 180 from each other and at the same time.  That was the only lesson I needed on cutting double stems.  If there is any seam at all, I saw the seam down toward the ground until all felling cuts can be made from normal position used to fall.   Trying to fall a tree by cutting higher up than normal poses safety issues as well.   And as everyone has said- No Ladders.  I know a guy who thought a ladder in his tractor bucket to reach higher up was a good idea.  Luckily he came out relatively OK.
"I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."  J.B.Books

CCC4

Cut them together...growth seam doesn't look too low... kerf back past the growth seam and you should be golden. Ladders are for picking apples n stuff n thangz! :)

Straightgrain

Went out today and determined a down-hill bed will be best; won't need a cable until its time to skid it with my new winch 8).

I'm most likely gonna fell them separately after seeing all the comments and evaluating the seam up close; the seam is about chest level and I think I have the mojo...



  

The view below is looking towards the South; bed is down hill (to the East).




  .

I have @ a generous 70-foot wide bed to fell it into.

I guess the formal noun for this type of tree is a "School-Marm"?

By the looks of this tree, most will go into the cull deck; the lower-limbs are huge 3"+

Perhaps I'll end-up with a 2nd deck big enough for a load for plywood by the time I'm done (Sept).

At least it won't threaten the house next winter when the winds come off the Pacific, and this is great training.

My thanks for all the time/comments.

Will post pics.
"We fight for and against not men and things as they are, but for and against the caricatures we make of them". Joseph Schumpeter

CCC4

If you can get them to go on their side to where both leaders are being faced out...it would prevent a barber chair and also prevent your saw from being pinched. Either way, I would throw both at once, it's really not that bad, the growth seam is plenty high enough from what I can see.

CCC4

Face that tree to where you are standing when ya took the 2nd pic...there is no problem throwing both at the same time.

Escavader

Sometimes I will put a wide ratchet strap to keep them together just in case then cut them as one
I have also cut vertically between them then fall one at a time either way has worked for me .just cut a 3 0 inch basswood that way this weekend I could see a seam all the way down it I put the 3 inch ratchet around it went perfect I used a steel wedge too
Alan Bickford
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so il logger

I would cut both at the same time as  well, looks like plenty of un-seamed stump to me.

sandsawmill14

I still think fall as one  pay close attention to notch put it where both will go at once instead of one pulling the other or you could wind up like farmer jim  ive had that happen once myself VERY SCAREY :o :o     

different subject sort of but if you have alot of falling to do you will eventually get one lodged or hung up. Do not try to knock it down with another tree. It was standard practice when i was in the woods and alot of guys probably still do, its sorta like domino felling works wonderful till it dont  :'(  and i can tell you for certain a 16"gum can hold a 24" red oak in the right situation, only time i ever got hurt in the woods. be SAFE but not scared. let us know how it goes.
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

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