iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Cautions to take with 90cc saws?

Started by alan gage, August 16, 2018, 12:31:25 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Pulphook

60" bar on a springboard ! Fugetabowtit !
Nothing like like that or needed with our Eastern timber. For this firewood non-pro the largest I've felled is ~ 36 DBH WITH my baby  ;) 16" bar on the MS261.
Besides, I couldn't begin to handle a 90cc 60"bar. The springboard ( whatever that is ??? ) scares the bejesus out of me. I cut for firewood, for clearing and volunteer trails, for fun.
Two wood stoves ( Jotul Rangely ,Jotul Oslo ) heating 99 44/100%
24/7. No central heat. 6-8 cords firewood from the woodlot /year. Low low tech: ATV with trailer, 3 saws, 2 electric splitters, a worn pulphook, peavy, climbing line for skidding, Fiskars 27, an old back getting older.

Dave Shepard

Google "150' up and still 7' in diameter". Jerry Beranek 150' up a redwood with a 7' bar on an 090 on springboards with a cast on his leg.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

realzed

Quote from: HolmenTree on August 17, 2018, 07:09:54 PM

Back in the day the forestry company I worked for made these noses compulsory on all our saws.
No kick back injuries with these "safety noses".

Here's one I'm demonstrating on my 7.8 h.p 066 Mag.


 


Willard: Excuse my inexperience here - but what makes this type of nose so less prone or 'next to impossible' (my take on what you stated) to get kickback from.. Is it the pointed shape of the nose or something else I'm not seeing?  My 20" bar on my 261 looks to have pretty much the same pointed tip as the one you show as being best for kickback issues verses the rounder (bigger radius) that the 18" and 16" versions seem normally to come as standard on a 261..  Guess what I'm sort of asking is, if a bar has the more pointed and sharper radius is or does that constitute one with less likelihood of kicking back?  

Al_Smith

Quote from: Dave Shepard on August 19, 2018, 06:30:50 PM
Google "150' up and still 7' in diameter". Jerry Beranek 150' up a redwood with a 7' bar on an 090 on springboards with a cast on his leg.
I've got a signed copy of that picture as well as signed copies of some of his books .The story behind that redwood is very interesting .It's also interesting about old school old growth cutting which is something you just don't see on the east coast or the heart land .Mrs Beranek ,Teri is one of my FB friends .

Al_Smith

I might add on the above it was staging supported by spring boards and bracing around the top of that big red wood .The cut was started by I think an 051 or 052  Stihl then followed by that 090 with that monster bar and I'll wager a good sum he didn't drop start  it .

I can't imagine what that thing must have weighed because my McCulloch 125 with a 48" tips the scales at over 40 pounds .

Skeans1

Quote from: Al_Smith on August 20, 2018, 06:37:18 AM
I might add on the above it was staging supported by spring boards and bracing around the top of that big red wood .The cut was started by I think an 051 or 052  Stihl then followed by that 090 with that monster bar and I'll wager a good sum he didn't drop start  it .

I can't imagine what that thing must have weighed because my McCulloch 125 with a 48" tips the scales at over 40 pounds .
I'll bet you he did, how else do you start a long bar saw? You set the tip on the boards then drop throw out well pulling back on the rope.

Pulphook

Never a "drop throw" start for this one. Unsafe. Call me "chicken" :(, but starting is either in the crotch hold (tight) or on the ground.
Too much torque in most pro saws ( even the 261) to throw the running saw out of your hands.
Only up a tree with my top handled saw will I drop start.
How many of you engage the brake BEFORE starting anyhow ? I do, since saw are like firearms and ordinance .....to me.

Are springboards and 60" bars still used out on the left coast ?
Two wood stoves ( Jotul Rangely ,Jotul Oslo ) heating 99 44/100%
24/7. No central heat. 6-8 cords firewood from the woodlot /year. Low low tech: ATV with trailer, 3 saws, 2 electric splitters, a worn pulphook, peavy, climbing line for skidding, Fiskars 27, an old back getting older.

Skeans1

Yeah once in a blue I've got a 60 for special oversized wood or where it's somewhere you don't want to board up. There's nothing like cutting your own boards and hoping they hold when climbing up.

teakwood

For many years i dropstarted the 088 with a 36"bar, that's fun!  If you don't have a good stand the saw can flip you over
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

hedgerow

Quote from: Al_Smith on August 20, 2018, 06:37:18 AM
I might add on the above it was staging supported by spring boards and bracing around the top of that big red wood .The cut was started by I think an 051 or 052  Stihl then followed by that 090 with that monster bar and I'll wager a good sum he didn't drop start  it .

I can't imagine what that thing must have weighed because my McCulloch 125 with a 48" tips the scales at over 40 pounds .
About 20 years ago we bought a farm that had a house and buildings on it. There were two giant cottonwood trees in the yard that towered over top the three story house that needed to come down. Back then I didn't have a big saw. There was a gentleman in our area that had retired from the phone company in his 50's and did tree work. He came in with his bucket truck and saws and took down the two big cottonwoods. Watching him drop start his Stihl 90 with a 60 inch bar on it made my shoulders hurt. He was a giant of a man. I always start saws on the ground with the brake on. Even my smaller top handled saw.  

HolmenTree

Summer of 1984 I was standing at the counter of Madsen's saw shop in Centralia, Washington.
 Sam Madsen just gave me a reconditioned 60 inch General bar with a Oregon 2 7/8" roller nose.
Sam actually gave me this bar as a gift telling me I could shorten it up to make a bar for my Yamaha bikesaw.

Just as I was holding it a veteran timberfaller in full working gear walks in and says to me "where are you cutting the big wood !!"
He said he hasn't seen a 5 footer working for years.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Skeans1

A couple years back Washington state changed some rules allowing a lot of the left over old growth to be cut, at the time they didn't have anything in over 42" and 95cc.

HolmenTree

Quote from: realzed on August 19, 2018, 07:15:33 PM
Quote from: HolmenTree on August 17, 2018, 07:09:54 PM

Back in the day the forestry company I worked for made these noses compulsory on all our saws.
No kick back injuries with these "safety noses".

Here's one I'm demonstrating on my 7.8 h.p 066 Mag.


 


Willard: Excuse my inexperience here - but what makes this type of nose so less prone or 'next to impossible' (my take on what you stated) to get kickback from.. Is it the pointed shape of the nose or something else I'm not seeing?  My 20" bar on my 261 looks to have pretty much the same pointed tip as the one you show as being best for kickback issues verses the rounder (bigger radius) that the 18" and 16" versions seem normally to come as standard on a 261..  Guess what I'm sort of asking is, if a bar has the more pointed and sharper radius is or does that constitute one with less likelihood of kicking back?  
Randy, yes smaller nose radius reduces kickback energy through a shorter curve in the upper quadrant area of the nose. All relative to sprocket tooth count.
Here's some pics.
On a side note Stihl discontinued a 13 tooth 3/8" sprocket nose because of liability.


 

 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

HolmenTree

Quote from: Skeans1 on August 20, 2018, 09:56:00 AM
A couple years back Washington state changed some rules allowing a lot of the left over old growth to be cut, at the time they didn't have anything in over 42" and 95cc.
I figured that had something to do with it in that state.
When I was in Wayne's Saw Shop in Amboy, Washington that summer Wayne Sutton says to me "you have to go to Oregon to see some really big wood their logging."
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Skeans1

It's not all that uncommon to see a 3 log load headed to Stimson in Clatskanie, a couple years back o did a 2 log load that'll put a big grin on your face.

realzed

Sorry if I'm being dense - but why if a bar all but eliminates kickback, would a company (Stihl or any other) discontinue it for 'liability' reasons?  Seems to me, unless I'm not getting it here - that it would be an ideal thing to have in a lineup verses some that would have known issues that come with dangerous consequences in comparison..
I understand why the smaller radius could make a contact area of the bar sharper and more prone to dig in to a section of wood, thus making boring easier and the tip less likely to bounce up when fewer teeth engage the wood at a time and at a sharper angle, verses a bar with a larger radius - but in my eyes that would make a bar a lot more desirable not less - unless there are other factors at play that I'm not realizing in this..    

sawguy21

He is saying they discontinued the wider 13 tooth nose.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

HolmenTree

I think what realzed Randy is saying is why were the small radius replaceable nose bars discontinued.

Well for one Stihl never sold a small radius replaceable nose bar. That was only the doing of Oregon and Windsor.
I should have quoted Stihl discontinued the 20" 13 tooth ES bar. I think the 25" might be gone too. Plus maybe I was too quick to say it was their decision to do that for liability reasons.

I remember back in the early 1980's when loggers in our area were starting to buy Stihl saws, the 11 tooth bars that came with them couldn't be used on the job site because of the companies  3/8" pitch 9 tooth safety policy. It drove Stihl nuts .
Eventually after switching from 16"- 20" Windsor rebadged bars to Oregon painted grey with the Stihl logo were they able to supply 9T professional bars.
At the time for Stihl to sell saws in Canada they had to sell a Canadian made bar with the powerhead. Only German made bars 25" and over could be sold with the powerhead in Canada.

But today with far less demand for pro grade  replaceable nose 9 tooth bars the Double Guard is only available in consumer grade 1 piece laminated bars.

But keep an eye out for old inventory Oregon PowerMatch Double Guard noses and Windsor Mini Pro bars, their still out there.
That reminds me Cannon sells a pro grade safety nose bar called the Super Mini. I got a 18" and still going strong, I believe they make a 20" and 24" with that setup with a Windsor Mini Pro style tip.

Now back to my MS261C muffler mod test :)

Making a living with a saw since age 16.

alan gage

Thanks for all the input. Some real good advice that I'll take to heart.

As for if I really need a saw/bar this big I'll readily admit that I don't. The 16" bar on my 250 has cut up some 30"+ logs and the 24" bar on the Echo has taken down some ~36" trees as well. But the Echo doesn't seem very happy pulling that 24" bar and sometimes I get impatient when I have a day where I'm cutting a fair amount of large trees/logs. But the real reason for getting the 661 and 42" bar is that I scored (or maybe was cursed with?) a 42" pine log that will need to be split by chainsaw before going on the mill. I thought about doing it from both sides with the Echo and 24" bar but I just don't think the saw would appreciate that very much. I've kind of been itching to try a big saw anyway so this was my justification. I got what I feel is a good deal on a used one so went for it. I'll leave a 28" bar on the 661 for general cutting and take the Echo down to a 20" bar to hopefully make it a little more peppy. By the time I bought the used 661 power head, 28" and 42" bar and chains for the 661 and a 20" bar and chains for the Echo I'm right at $1k so as long as the used saw turns out to be a good saw I'm happy and can justify the purchase. I don't plan on lugging around the 661 all day so the Stihl 250 and Echo 680 will still be my go-to saws and the 661 will come out as needed.

Alan
Timberking B-16, a few chainsaws from small to large, and a Bobcat 873 Skidloader.

Pulphook

Quote from: HolmenTree on August 20, 2018, 12:35:58 PM
Now back to my MS261C muffler mod test :)
Pics please of your 261 mod ? ( Pretty please :-[)
Two wood stoves ( Jotul Rangely ,Jotul Oslo ) heating 99 44/100%
24/7. No central heat. 6-8 cords firewood from the woodlot /year. Low low tech: ATV with trailer, 3 saws, 2 electric splitters, a worn pulphook, peavy, climbing line for skidding, Fiskars 27, an old back getting older.

John Mc

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Al_Smith

I just dug up that pic of the big red wood .It was as a said planked over the spring boards .Now weather Jerry B dropped say 60 pounds of saw with a  7 foot bar over the side I can't say and won't argue about it .I wasn't there .No matter how it was done I'm sure it was a chore .
FWIW I had a 70 cc saw close the decomp on a drop and climb the rope .If it would have started it could have cut my arm off .It was a wake up call I've heeded every since .Call me a wuss but I'm kind of fond of having two arms and all my fingers . ;D My goodness how could I pick my nose ?

Dave Shepard

In his videos, Jerry holds the rear handle with his right hand and pulls with his left. This is with an 066. It's sort of like drop starting, but the bar is usually on a log or something. 
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

ZeroJunk

I don't see any point in John Q Public drop starting a big saw unless there is no place to set it on the ground and stick the toe end of your boot in the handle.  What do you save, a second or two ?

Al_Smith

The novelty of running a high cube saw with a long bar wears off in a very short time .Been there ,it wasn't all that much fun .

Thank You Sponsors!