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Unique TF Barn ???

Started by Rooster, March 19, 2011, 12:44:56 PM

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Rooster

Howdy,
A salvage guy in Wisconsin found and purchased this barn near Manitowoc, WI which is north of Milwaukee near Lake Michigan. It is a 40 x 70 hand hewn pine frame. He has never seen one like this, and neither have I. To me, the most unique part of this frame is that the tails of the rafters are joined to either a full tie beam that rests on top of the sidewall top-plate, or for lack of a better description, "stub-tie-beams", which then seem to be attached to a beam that spans the bay and connects the full tie-beams about 24" from their ends. It seems like the framer is using this secondary beam to help control the roof from pushing the sidewalls out at the top. Do you also see this?...or is there a different purpose or idea behind this additional framing system?
So I offer this starter question...Does this design have it's origins in any known ethnic inventory?

Let me know what you all think.

Rooster

P.S I am hoping to do a Sketchup drawing of the frame so that I can post it in the  depository.
























"We talk about creating millions of "shovel ready" jobs, for a society that doesn't really encourage anybody to pick up a shovel." 
Mike Rowe

"Old barns are a reminder of when I was young,
       and new barns are a reminder that I am not so young."
                          Rooster

shinnlinger

I have never saw a frame like that and I suspect the reason why is it uses more lumber and joinery than other simpler designs that will work just as well.  I am unsure why a farmer would make more work or expense for himself building a barn or anything else for that matter.

Maybe it is the pics, or perhaps they did a really good job, but other than the floor joists it doesn't look hand hewn to me.
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Rooster

Maybe the farmer got talked into it because he didn't have enough experience, or he built it himself ("farmer built") and wanted to over-build it to make sure that it would last. We may never know.
"We talk about creating millions of "shovel ready" jobs, for a society that doesn't really encourage anybody to pick up a shovel." 
Mike Rowe

"Old barns are a reminder of when I was young,
       and new barns are a reminder that I am not so young."
                          Rooster

Rooster

Hey,

I finally got a chance to draw this frame with Sketchup.
The tie-beams sit on top of the sidewall top-plate like a regular English tie joint, but they used common rafters.  Each tie-beam has it's own set of rafters, but the rafters between the tie-beam spacing sit on "Stub-ties", which take up the distance or depth of the regular tie-beams and give each rafter a foot-pad to connect to and transfer the load to the top-plate.

I have only seen two frames that have this type of roof system, and I believe it may be Pomeranian-German style.

Has anyone seen other frames like this?

Thanks,

Rooster



  

  

 
"We talk about creating millions of "shovel ready" jobs, for a society that doesn't really encourage anybody to pick up a shovel." 
Mike Rowe

"Old barns are a reminder of when I was young,
       and new barns are a reminder that I am not so young."
                          Rooster

giant splinter

A very interesting design indeed and you did a great job with the sketchup, this design has almost a truss element to the roof support members and I like the way the rafters are connected over the tie beams at the top plate and the use of the "Stub-ties" and transverse rim-joist style beam to stabilize the roof loads. Very special and appears to be well engineered with many considerations given to use of space horizontally and vertically. Thanks for sharing this special barn frame and it looks even more interesting with your sketchup drawing as many of the details are visible to show us a clear view of how this structure was built. If only we had xray vision and could see into the joinery to observe the the details hidden from our view in this very strong design. I have never see any frame that used this method of connections it is unique and very sturdy.
Very interesting post thanks for sharing.
roll with it

Brian_Weekley

Rooster,

Do you know how those stub ties are attached to that inner beam?  Looks like they are notched to fit over the outer plate and I assume they would have horizontal mortise and tenon joints into the inner beam, but are they also pegged?  They could be pegged from the top of the beam, but I can't tell from the photos.

BW
e aho laula

Rooster

Quote from: Brian_Weekley on November 30, 2012, 08:29:34 PM
Rooster,

Do you know how those stub ties are attached to that inner beam?  Looks like they are notched to fit over the outer plate and I assume they would have horizontal mortise and tenon joints into the inner beam, but are they also pegged?  They could be pegged from the top of the beam, but I can't tell from the photos.

BW

BW,

To answer your questions...yes,yes,yes, and yes!   ;)

I'll be going down to finish the frame next month, and I will take lots of photos of the repairs, joints, and raising.

Thanks,

Rooster
"We talk about creating millions of "shovel ready" jobs, for a society that doesn't really encourage anybody to pick up a shovel." 
Mike Rowe

"Old barns are a reminder of when I was young,
       and new barns are a reminder that I am not so young."
                          Rooster

Rooster

Update:

I recently returned home from the site on which this barn was relocated to...(Fredericksburg, TX)

Here are some photos of the restored and re-raised frame.


 


  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

 

"We talk about creating millions of "shovel ready" jobs, for a society that doesn't really encourage anybody to pick up a shovel." 
Mike Rowe

"Old barns are a reminder of when I was young,
       and new barns are a reminder that I am not so young."
                          Rooster

Jim_Rogers

It looked like a nice site.

Thanks for posting.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Brad_bb

Are the girts face lapped(cut out on one side) to accept those long corner braces? How do you think they laid those out?  Before assembly or on the fly?

Good pics by the way.  Any more?  Was that how it was when you had to leave?
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Rooster

Yes, the girts and wall diagonals are half-lapped. I believe that they were scribed during pre-assembly The diagonals have short tenons on the top and bottom that match mortises on the underside of the tie-beam and the top of the sill beam. 

I couldn't stay for the rest of the rafters to be raised...so they will have to send me photos when they are done.

Thanks,

Rooster
"We talk about creating millions of "shovel ready" jobs, for a society that doesn't really encourage anybody to pick up a shovel." 
Mike Rowe

"Old barns are a reminder of when I was young,
       and new barns are a reminder that I am not so young."
                          Rooster

clww

I can't help but wonder how long it took to originally build that barn, "back in the old days"? That's some incredible workmanship, IMHO.
I really like that final photo at sunset.
Many Stihl Saws-16"-60"
"Go Ask The Other Master Chief"
18-Wheeler Driver

Brian_Weekley

Rooster,

Originally, I was going to propose a crazy, alternative theory for this design...

They cut all the rafters based on the width of the barn:



However, they forgot that all the rafters don't sit on a tie beam!  Therefore, most of the rafters cut were too short and couldn't be used:



To remedy this mistake, they added the secondary beams and the stub-ties to give the rafters something to sit on and bring them to the correct height.

If the rafters had been spiked into the stub-ties, I would stand behind my theory.  However, your new photos clearly show mortises cut into the stub-ties to accept the rafters.  Therefore, I think the design was probably deliberate and I agree with your hypothesis (resistance to outward thrust).  Very interesting--thanks for sharing.

Brian   :P
e aho laula

Slab Slicer

Considering the barns original location (WI), I believe the design was done to support HEAVY snow load on the roof. In a sigle top plate design, the load on the roof would transfer to the walls of the barn, and in turn bow the walls, and allow the roof to sag, and eventually collapse. The addition of the "inner beam" is similar to a floor truss laying on it's side. A single top plate would not hold near the load that this system would hold. JMHO

Amazing joinery by the way. Alot of craftmenship indeed. It's nice to see this barn being relocated, rather than disassebled, and sold in pieces.

Another comment, How old is this barn? Again, considering it's original location, and the loads it must have experienced in it's lifetime, there is no indication in your first pic of any roof sag, or outward bow in the walls. I think the design proved itself.
2016 LT35HDG25, Kubota L2501 w/ FEL, Kubota BX1500 w/FEL and custom skidding rig, Stihl MS 500i, Stihl MS362-25", Stihl MS250-20", Stihl MS192-18",  2001 F250 SD 7.3, GMC Sierra Dually 6.0 gasser, Peaqua 16" 10K trailer, Sur-Trac 12' Dump Trailer 10K
Chuck

drobertson

rooster thanks for all the pics, this timber frame construction has really grabbed my attention, and not knowing anything at all, what slabslicer suggested on the side load makes sense to me, not only snow loads but maybe wind loads as well,  thanks to all who build these structures and share your techqniques,  david :new_year:
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Migal

 :) Mighty fine work in the first paragraph that part of wouldn't work Hmm I grew up on a farm in PA where the barn was built over 200 yr's prior to my birth and it sure looked alot like that one cept the painting was just dry boards no rot though we always wished Mail Pouch would paint it but it wasn't by the freeways that they charge toll's on now day's Hmm Dang glad to see such fine craftsmanship then and now  :snowball:  :new_year:
Stihl learning and picked up my Log Master LM2 Cat 34hp 02 21 12! 230MF+ the toys that go with it! MS361 MS271 Stihl PB500 Echo 48" LogRite 16ft Bass Tracker Pro' Abua Garcia 5600 bait caster, Wood working equipment' Lake Lot never enough time! oh don't forget the fridge with ale! Loving Wife Rebeca

Rooster

Quote from: shinnlinger on March 19, 2011, 07:50:32 PM
Maybe it is the pics, or perhaps they did a really good job, but other than the floor joists it doesn't look hand hewn to me.

Yes, it's all hewn.  Some of them are so smooth and straight, that from 20ft away, they look sawn and planed.   I am of the opinion that true hewing is done to produce this smooth finish as apposed to roughing out a beam or cant.  Check out how smooth Mike B. gets his hewn surface.

http://youtu.be/xGy31E63Ems

Or Nebruks:

http://youtu.be/pfYx0CuO21k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNhxDUsESUM&list=UUXdE6hQzA25T5ejVPrr4x-g
"We talk about creating millions of "shovel ready" jobs, for a society that doesn't really encourage anybody to pick up a shovel." 
Mike Rowe

"Old barns are a reminder of when I was young,
       and new barns are a reminder that I am not so young."
                          Rooster

D L Bahler

I'll add here what I said over at the TFG forums, plus a little more info relevant to this thread.

Seeing the deconstruction and reconstruction of this barn, the frame assembly, joint layout, joint designs etc. have very clear connections to timber framing of the western Swiss Plateau. Many of the features of this barn strike me as very familiar and identical to what I see on the large farm buildings in the Canton of Bern. These would include the long slanted braces, the short tenons, the dovetail lap joints, and even the mysterious stub tie assembly. I have seen this exact assembly in use in Canton Bern.

I think there are a number of reasons why this is done.
First, all rafters are identical, that is you don't have shorter rafters where the full ties are. This makes a difference in keeping the roof straight over time.
Also, this assembly stiffens the walls and keeps them nice and straight.
Third, in the huge Bernese farmhouses, there are many many tie beams spaced like the stub ties (close) supporting a very large upper room where hay and machinery are stored. On buildings lacking this huge upper space (due to a design for a different use) the assembly of the many ties is kept by using the stub tie system. This allows for a certain degree of stiffness while still allowing for a relatively open loft space.

I would hypothesize that this barn was built by a Swiss immigrant with training in the old country, applying his knowledge to the farming realities of the United States.

D L Bahler

I looked through some of my pictures, here's one barn that shows some of the features although it is a little different, and is in the mountains, not on the plateau.



  

  

  

  

 

D L Bahler

And here are a few more, from the Emmental



  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

 

Migal

Got to love timber framed buildings  8)  :new_year:
Stihl learning and picked up my Log Master LM2 Cat 34hp 02 21 12! 230MF+ the toys that go with it! MS361 MS271 Stihl PB500 Echo 48" LogRite 16ft Bass Tracker Pro' Abua Garcia 5600 bait caster, Wood working equipment' Lake Lot never enough time! oh don't forget the fridge with ale! Loving Wife Rebeca

Rooster

Thanks to everyone who has responded!!

DL,

Those are some nice frames!!  Very inspirational!!

Thanks for sharing!!

Rooster
"We talk about creating millions of "shovel ready" jobs, for a society that doesn't really encourage anybody to pick up a shovel." 
Mike Rowe

"Old barns are a reminder of when I was young,
       and new barns are a reminder that I am not so young."
                          Rooster

Jay C. White Cloud

Hello All,

I know I'm coming to this conversation late in the game but I have seen this rafter tail configuration before, in Ohio and I believe Pennsylvania, can't remember. It could be of several European origins depending on where the barn is found.  This one is most likely Swiss or German. 

The name of the technique is described in several cultures.  I have translated them all to English and/or closest meaning.

sprocket beam
stitch beam
bracket beam
dragon beam (note, this is similar to what you find hip rafters resting on.)

Sometimes they are attached with a tenon, (sometimes a through with wedge,)  to a secondary rafter plat, often they are not, though the configuration is similar, and function the same.

Here are a few references:

"The Roof in Japan Buddist Architecture,"  M.N.Parent, 1985

"The History of Roof Work Illistrated," F. Ostendorf, 1908 (German)

"Japan's Folk Architecture" Chuji Kawashima, 1986

R. G. Knapp,  can't remember which one. I think "China's Vernacular Architecture,"  1989

"Wood and Wood Joints, building traditions of Europe and Japan," K. Zwerger, 2000

I'm not 100% but I believe this makes reference also:
"The Craft of Log Building," H. Phleps, 1967 (German) trans. Eng. Lee 1982

Regards,  jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Mooseherder

If one could describe nebrunks video in one word.
For me it would be " Pure".

D L Bahler

Here is another building I have been studying, made me think of this thread.

Here you can see clearly the type of bracketing used on the barn in question.



 

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