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Having a real hard time starting my D34 on my LT40 in cold weather

Started by CalebL, November 30, 2011, 01:15:42 PM

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CalebL

How much difference will a block heater make and where does it wire up at?

When the temps get below 45 it takes forever to it to start up.  I usually turn the glow plugs on for 30-45 seconds before each ignition.  Puffs black smoke but won't start.  Start over.  Usually by the 4th or 5th time it will bust off.  I've tried the fuel treatment and it didn't seem to help much.  Starting in warm temp it fires right up on the first ignition. 
2005 LT40 HDD34
2000 Cat 226 Skid Loader

Dave Shepard

We installed a block heater on our 51 HP Cat. You have to drain the coolant and punch out a frost plug in the block. It makes a big difference. In cold weather, I manually hold the throttle open a little on the engine to keep it from stalling. Not unusual to have to try a couple times before it stays running.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

mad murdock

check your glow plugs and make sure they are working properly.  a poor performing glow plug is as bad as none at all.  Are you using #2 diesel or #1 diesel?  you may want to make sure fuel is not an issue, if you are getting close to freezing temps, you will want to get rid of the #2 and switch to #1.  A trick I used in bush Alaska in extreme cold temps was to take a jug of hot as you can get tap water, and splash it onto the carb or intake area of the engine(outside, so water does not get in the actual air intake) made a difference in -20 and below temps.  A block heater makes a big difference in ease of starting on an engine.  The symptoms you describe, makes me think that you may have glow plug(s) that are below par.  You can check them with an ohm meter quickly to see if they are good or bad.  Disconnect the wire to the plug, and read resistance between the glow plug terminal and the engine block.  if one is burnt you will indicate an open.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

sealark37

You might check around to see if you can purchase some #1 diesel fuel.  It will help your cold start problem.  If it is not available, you can mix #2 diesel fuel and kerosene 1:1 to make your own #1.  You can also install one of several block heaters that will help.    Regards, Clark

ladylake

 I'll agree with bad glow plugs or power to them, check for power to them 1st with a test light then as above. I found out the hard way that I can only hold the glow plugs on for 5 to 7 seconds without burning them out but that little Isuzu will start right down to  0 f   when they work.    Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Dave Shepard

Remember, this is a Perkapiller. Hard starting in the cold is not a symptom of something wrong, it's just a symptom that it's a Perkapiller.  ;) We've got almost 500 hours on ours now, and it starts much better, but nothing like a Kubota or Yanmar.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

woodmills1

I have the 62 tubo on my 70 and it is hard even when just may be cold


I did find a cracked glow plug last year but only a little better


funny my cat 416b back hoe almost same 3204 engine stars no glow plug to 10 degrees



engine starter speed I think

my durimax spins right up cold, but I can tell it is cranking much faster than the woodmizer perka
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

red oaks lumber

its not the fuel, 45 deg. is not cold enough to gel anything... check glow plugs or wiring
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Bibbyman

Does it have a manual fuel pump lever?  I find pumping the fuel up about 10 strokes and then holding the throttle open helps a lot.   Also a fully charged battery.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

CalebL

I am running off road diesel (it says it's ultra low sulfur) and other than that I don't know what it is.  I am running Lucas Extreme Cold Temp Fuel Treatment to help keep the fuel from gelling and it says it helps starting in cold weather.  It didn't seem to help at all. 

The glow plugs are fine as I have checked them with a ohm meter.  Once the engine does start, I have no problems starting anytime I shut it down for the rest of the day.  I try to start out early in the morning so I pull my mill to location a lot of times before sunrise making it even colder.  I hate how long it takes to start as it can't be good for my battery or my starter.  The mill now has almost 550 hours on it. 

The engine has no problem turning over so I am guessing the block heater would need to be used on the water system.  I just don't see how this would help that much but am willing to try anything at this point. 
2005 LT40 HDD34
2000 Cat 226 Skid Loader

CalebL

Quote from: Bibbyman on November 30, 2011, 07:29:52 PM
Does it have a manual fuel pump lever?  I find pumping the fuel up about 10 strokes and then holding the throttle open helps a lot.   Also a fully charged battery.

No manual fuel pump lever.  However I added a rubber hand pump bulb to the fuel tank because of how hard it is to restart after running out of fuel. 
2005 LT40 HDD34
2000 Cat 226 Skid Loader

Dave Shepard

It didn't come with the hand pump bulb? I thought that was standard on all of the WM fuel systems. If your plugs are reading out ok with the ohm meter, try pumping the bulb for a bit to purge out any air that may be getting in, then hold the throttle arm about 1/2 way open on the injector pump when you crank it. Once it starts, it's going to try and rev up, just try to keep the engine rpms up enough so it doesn't die. These engine only have to run for 5-10 seconds to be warm enough to idle on their own.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Larry

Its amazing how much better a diesel starts with a block heater.  I've had a bunch over the years.  My old JD-4030 took 12 hours to come up to starting temperature.  More typical is my little Ford tractor.  It takes about 30 minutes to come up to temperature and than starts like hot summer time.  As a bonus I think it's a lot easier on the engine starting after its been warmed up a bit.

The block heater plugs into AC.  I wonder if a mobile sawyer could put a inverter in the truck and plug the block heater into that on the way to the job?

Dirty/out of adjustment injectors will also cause the problem but with only 550 hours I can't see that as being it.

When on the farm I used Power Service supplement...mainly to take care of condensation in the bulk tank.  It was supposed to also help with starting.  I've changed my viewpoint a bit over the years as to the necessity of some of the supplements.  Don't use anything now.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

CalebL

Quote from: Dave Shepard on November 30, 2011, 08:05:52 PM
It didn't come with the hand pump bulb? I thought that was standard on all of the WM fuel systems. If your plugs are reading out ok with the ohm meter, try pumping the bulb for a bit to purge out any air that may be getting in, then hold the throttle arm about 1/2 way open on the injector pump when you crank it. Once it starts, it's going to try and rev up, just try to keep the engine rpms up enough so it doesn't die. These engine only have to run for 5-10 seconds to be warm enough to idle on their own.

If it did it didn't have one on it when I bought it.  I learned real quick that it's a must if you ever run it out of fuel. 
2005 LT40 HDD34
2000 Cat 226 Skid Loader

CalebL

Quote from: Larry on November 30, 2011, 08:10:19 PM
Its amazing how much better a diesel starts with a block heater.  I've had a bunch over the years.  My old JD-4030 took 12 hours to come up to starting temperature.  More typical is my little Ford tractor.  It takes about 30 minutes to come up to temperature and than starts like hot summer time.  As a bonus I think it's a lot easier on the engine starting after its been warmed up a bit.

The block heater plugs into AC.  I wonder if a mobile sawyer could put a inverter in the truck and plug the block heater into that on the way to the job?

Dirty/out of adjustment injectors will also cause the problem but with only 550 hours I can't see that as being it.

When on the farm I used Power Service supplement...mainly to take care of condensation in the bulk tank.  It was supposed to also help with starting.  I've changed my viewpoint a bit over the years as to the necessity of some of the supplements.  Don't use anything now.

I wondered about that also.  I couldn't see how a 12 volt heater would do anything, if they even make one.  Most of my sawing is done mobile in the middle of no where.  I don't feel like carrying a generator just to start my saw. 

My Kubota fires right up even at 5 degrees.  I guess I have been spoiled a bit. 

I will try some of the tips on Friday.  Thanks again guys. 
2005 LT40 HDD34
2000 Cat 226 Skid Loader

Coon

You could definately plug a block heater into an inverter providing it is big enough and then the next thing would be battery storage.  The bigger inverters suck alot of juice from a battery so you would most likely have to keep the truck idling high enough that it keeps the battery charged up.
Norwood Lumbermate 2000 w/Kohler,
Husqvarna, Stihl and, Jonsereds Saws

beenthere

Have you checked the compression? Sounds like there is not enough compression or that the glo plugs are not actively doing their job (test ok but not functioning ok). Only leaves the injectors or pump.
Going with a heater is just a band-aid on the problem at 40 deg.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Larry

Quote from: Coon on November 30, 2011, 08:26:56 PM
The bigger inverters suck alot of juice from a battery so you would most likely have to keep the truck idling high enough that it keeps the battery charged up.

Plug it into the inverter while driving to the job.  Here again I'm just guessing cause I don't know how many amps a block heater pulls.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

cypresskayaksllc

LT40HDDR, JD950FEL, Weimaraner

Bandmill Bandit

I would recommend a 1500 watt circulating block heater.

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=KAT13150_0330983968

IF access to power is an issue then g to the Wabasto diesel fired engine heater.

http://www.webastoshowroom.com/images/truck_trifold.pdf

If your engine has only become hard starting in the last while and was a good before then I would start by pulling the injectors and get them tested and reset/conditioned as required, but with only 500 hours this should not be a problem. I missed the bit about the engine being a Perkipillar. Good motor jsut a a tough starter when there is even a breath of frost in the air, although it is better than the old Perkins were.

Another option is to get a connection kit so that you can just hook it to your truck with the heater hoses break away fittings and warm it up that way. Used to do the 60 s 70 s vintage D7s and D8s and the IH TD models that way in the oil field. i would think that little engine would be up to operation temp in about 10 or 15 minutes.

Took about a half ish hour on those 3406 Cats and a few of the other Detroit, IH and JD engine models.   
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Ron Wenrich

We have block heaters on all our diesels.  We aren't mobile, so that helps quite a bit.  But, when it gets really cold, we have to give it a sniff of ether to get them started.  Don't know if that applies to the newer diesels.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

thecfarm

Hooking it up to your truck when you get at the job would really be the easiest way. Nothing else to carry around,or to forget to bring.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Bibbyman

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on December 01, 2011, 06:26:21 AM
We have block heaters on all our diesels.  We aren't mobile, so that helps quite a bit.  But, when it gets really cold, we have to give it a sniff of ether to get them started.  Don't know if that applies to the newer diesels.
I've been told not to use ether on engines with glow plugs. The glow plugs could make the ether explode!
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

ladylake

  Just a thought, how long should the glow plugs be held on, are they automatically timed.  My little Isuzu takes 5 or 6 seconds, any longer they will burn out but they are not timed. If the catper uses the same plugs 30 to 40 seconds is way too long, if timed they will heat for 5 to 7 seconds turn off and get cold, if not timed they are burnt out.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

TimGA

The reason a block heater works is it heats the water , that heats the block, that heats the air in the cylinders. Diesals ignition comes from the heat of the compressed fuel air mixture in the cylinder, it has no spark to ignite it. The glow plugs get red hot in the top of the cylinder to help ignite your fuel air mix for your cold start. I am not familar with this engine, but if you can keep the fuel shut off, spin the engine to heat the cylinders and air, stop spinning, run your glow plugs, start as normal. I would recheck Glow Plugs fuction, as this is only a cold start problem, I agree with others 40 degrees should not be a problem. The block heater would work for sure, but I understand mobility issue, inverter would work as stated. I would call manufacture for advice and solution only 500hrs still brand new. From other posts appears this is a issue with this motor. Hope this helps.         Tim
TK2000, Kubota L3130GST, grapple, pallet forks, 2640 Massey w/loader (The Beast) Husky saws Logrites One man operation some portable most stationary.

MartyParsons

Hello,
45 d should not be a starting issue, but these Cat engines were tough to start when cold like in the 20's. Take a 12 v test light and make sure you are getting power to the glow plugs. If so then take the glow plugs out and hot wire them to see if they are working. They should get RED in 10 sec. Dont hold them to long or they will explode. There is a relay that operates the glow plugs it may not be working. When the starter turnes on the relay opens and the glow plugs turn off. There is also a fuse on the Relay ( looks like a thin piece of aluminum) .
Hope this helps. I have seen a few head gaskets fail on the 62 and the 51, I have not seen this on the 34. The gasket will leak combustion internal.
Marty
Yes a bolck heater would help like the others talked about.
"A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty." -Winston Churchill

ladylake

 Marty
  Are the glow plugs set up on a timer so they off after 10 second, if so I think the OP is holding them on way to long where they are getting cold again and yes they cool off fast on my Isuzu.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Chris Burchfield

I have the 51HP cat/per.  It also is a bit cold natured @ 20 deg.F and below.  I have had luck in cocking the throttle open a little with a stick.  Once she starts and levels out I remove the stick.  One other thing, have a good battery.  A couple of years ago, Woodmizer came out with an adder causing the glow plugs to time out at about 15 - 17 seconds.  I installed it on mine and have had no problem.  I'll go the 15 seconds when it's cold for starting.
Woodmizer LT40SH W/Command Control; 51HP Cat, Memphis TN.

CalebL

Thanks guys, I am going to check the glow plugs again and I also think some of you are right.  I may be leaving the glow plugs on too long and they may be timing out and cooling back down.  I will check the GP again this evening.  Thanks again. 
2005 LT40 HDD34
2000 Cat 226 Skid Loader

Bibbyman

Quote from: CalebL on November 30, 2011, 07:41:27 PM
I try to start out early in the morning so I pull my mill to location a lot of times before sunrise making it even colder.

Have you tried starting it at home and letting it warm up before taking off to the job?
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

CalebL

Quote from: Bibbyman on December 01, 2011, 12:35:42 PM
Quote from: CalebL on November 30, 2011, 07:41:27 PM
I try to start out early in the morning so I pull my mill to location a lot of times before sunrise making it even colder.

Have you tried starting it at home and letting it warm up before taking off to the job?

No but it's worth a try.  Thanks Bibby. 
2005 LT40 HDD34
2000 Cat 226 Skid Loader

MartyParsons

Hello, newer Cats and Yanmars would have timer hooked up on the glow plug soleniod. It should shut down in 30 sec. If the timer is hooked up. If it is an earlier Lormbardini, Kubota or Cat it glow plugs will stay on until the starter is cycled. The glow plug relay is part of WM wiring.
Hope this helps.
Marty
"A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty." -Winston Churchill

BBTom

My Kubota D42 shuts down the glow plugs after about 15 seconds. 

My normal routine is to turn key on, tighten the blade, by then the glow plug light is ready to shut off and hit start as soon as it does. 

I am having some problems with my Kubota,  sometimes have to run the heaters twice if it is under 20 degrees.  Keep in mind that it has almost 5500 hours on it.  It is time to get the injector nozzles reworked, probably the pump too. 
2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Retired, but building a new shop and home in Missouri.

Full Circle

Does the engine spin noticeably slower in the colder temps?  If so, your battery and/or cable connections may need attention.  If Cat allows a lower viscosity oil in the winter, that may help, too.  I had a starter going bad that only affected starting when it was cold (in my old Mercedes diesel), not making the needed revs to start the engine.  I don't suspect that's your problem with only 550 hrs.

Otherwise, I'm thinking glow plugs, too.  Or the power to them (timer relay gone bad?).  Glow plugs aren't terribly expensive (unless Cat's are a lot more than other manufacturers), and having spares isn't the worst thing if they don't end up fixing the problem.

A block heater will certainly help, but it may be masking the problem, as it should start at the temps you mentioned.  I'd stay away from ether for the reason Bibby stated.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.
-Roy



fullcirclefarmandforest.com

cypresskayaksllc

I dont understand how some diesels have such a hard time starting and others dont. The little yanmar on my jd950 doesnt even need warming at 30 degrees to start. It only needs a few turns and its gone. Why do some diesels need warming and some dont? Does it have to do with the size of the engine. The yanmar is only 30ish I think.
LT40HDDR, JD950FEL, Weimaraner

gandrimp

Heres how I check glow plugs. Test light to check your getting power too the plugs. Then undo each glow plug, check each plug when seperated from harness, one end of light to positive battery terminal the other end to the post of the glowplug, if it lights its a good plug, if it dont its bad. They have to be tested seperated from the harness.
LM2000

ladylake

Quote from: cypresskayaksllc on December 01, 2011, 10:13:20 PM
I dont understand how some diesels have such a hard time starting and others dont. The little yanmar on my jd950 doesnt even need warming at 30 degrees to start. It only needs a few turns and its gone. Why do some diesels need warming and some dont? Does it have to do with the size of the engine. The yanmar is only 30ish I think.





The best starting diesel I ever had was a DT466 in a truck, once it started a -27  with just a jump when the heater cord burned out, no either or glow plugs as it didn't have them.  This engine has a pump that gives it extra fuel for starting and the extra fuel is turned off soon as it gets oil pressure, if it killed when first starting I had to wait untill the oil pressure was down to 0 or it wouldn't start. This engine only ran a 16 to 1 compression as it had a turbo.   Sure would be nice if they would put this system on all diesels, never took more than 2 or 3 turns to start even at 0 or below.  I did keep this truck plugged in below 20* but once in a while the heater would quit.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

ladylake

Quote from: CalebL on December 01, 2011, 10:41:33 AM
Thanks guys, I am going to check the glow plugs again and I also think some of you are right.  I may be leaving the glow plugs on too long and they may be timing out and cooling back down.  I will check the GP again this evening.  Thanks again.




Once your sure they're working I'd try 10 seconds, as Marty said the should be red hot in 10 seconds. If no go try 15 seconds.  These glow plugs take quite a bit of juice to run and you should be able to tell when the get timed out, on mine I can tell by the electric fuel pump slowing down a bit when they're on or if there's a light that comes on with the key it will get a bit lighter when they get timed out, hit the starter then.     Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Al_Smith

Some diesels just start hard .My bud the tree trimmer has an L 55 delux New Holland skid loader that will start at 10 below zero using the glow plugs ,no problem .42 HP Perkins I believe .That same machine still needs a pre heat if it's 80 degrees .Go figure .

Old trick on the pony start Cats was to use a propane torch and shoot fire right in the intake ,they'd start in any kind of weather providing you could first get the pony motor started .That often presented more of a problem however than the main engine .

ladylake

 My little Isuzu is like that, won't start at 80 above without the glow plugs but will start right up at 0 with them. I'm not sawing any colder than that.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Al_Smith

I suppose too it depends on the engine design .Those older pre chamber diesels like the Cats were only about 16 to one comp ratio .Seems to me the more modern direct injection types go up to 22 to one  or so .

I know for example my parents 40 foot motor home has a 7.5 KVA Onan with either a Yanmar or Izusu diesel .It needs a heat on a cold start no matter how warm it is .Fires up on two,belchs ,farts hiccups and blows white smoke for about 30 secends then smooths right out and runs like a fine Swiss watch and runs on all three cylinders .

The 300 plus HP Cummins main engine fires right up no problem at all no matter how cold it is .Obviously a design thing .

Dave Shepard

The D282 engine in the IH 656 diesels use a precombustion chamber. You pretty much have to pre heat no matter how hot the engine is.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

CalebL

Well everything checked out OK.  What I did though was pump my fuel bulb a couple of times and open the throttle half way and it started right up 2 days in a row.  I have decided it just doesn't like cold weather. 
2005 LT40 HDD34
2000 Cat 226 Skid Loader

Dave Shepard

Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Al_Smith

Another trick that some times works is roll the engine a few times with the fuel off  then crack the fuel .The compression  less the fuel heats the cylinder and on some engines allows a start up easier .

That was an old trick on the John-Deere two cylinder engines .

T Welsh

None of our cats like cold weather,have 3 of them and have to plug them in at night when it gets below 40 degrees,if we dont they will start,but they will draw the batteries down fast and when they do start they will fog you out. Tim

Magicman

My Lombardini does NOT like cold weather.  Most of the time she spends the night at customer's locations so block heaters, etc. are not an option.  I just have to keep glowing and trying until finally.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

woodmills1

I have burned so many ribbon fuses to the glow plugs on the 70 that I left it out and complete the circuit with a 7/8" wrench




I love my 70 but it is hard to start cold or not
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

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