Pennsylvania Newbie

[GrampawGriz]

Howdy, folks. I recently joined up after having heard about this forum on the Out of the Woods channel on YouTube. I stumbled across the channel by chance, but I've been watching everything I can on sawmilling ever since. I believe I could make a living as a Sawyer, but I have a LOT of questions - and probably close to two years - before I can get started.

I'm in western PA (Butler) with my Wife and five year old Grandson. We're on just under three acres, mostly wooded and almost all of it rocky hillside. But, we do have a nicely situated "level" area that I think would be well suited for an entry level mill (something on the order of a Wood Mizer LT-15). 

I'm here to learn as much as I can from those with both sawmilling and business experience - especially the things I need to consider, and preparations I need to work on, before I actually jump into this.

Your advice and wisdom are deeply appreciated, and if this post would be more appropriate elsewhere in the forum feel free to move it.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Griz

[SawyerTed]

Welcome Griz!  This forum is the place to ask questions so jump in and ask.  The members here freely share their knowledge and experience.  I'm still pretty "green."

It can be done.  I'm seven months in on my business.  Mine is a "retirement" job.  There's enough sawing to be done in my area to keep me busy 40+ hours a week.  Most of it is framing lumber for barns, fencing, trailer decking, and board and batten siding. I'd like to saw more high value stuff but I don't have a kiln yet.  That's the first key to increasing my sawing and sales of higher value woods.

Sawing is one thing, secondary processing (kiln drying, planing, molding) is where there is increasing return BUT that requires the investment in more machinery.  

Don't under estimate the needed investment in log retrieving and handling machinery - truck, trailer, tractor, skid steer.  Heavier duty is better.  

[garyfg]

welcome

[GrampawGriz]

Thanks for the welcome and advice, guys. Very much appreciated.

I've thought about making a video of the area where I'd be setting up the mill and maybe posting it here. Is that possible? Or permissible?

Thinking maybe it would give folks a better idea of the potential site.

Thanks,

Griz

[SawyerTed]

A video has to be uploaded to YouTube then a link posted here.  It is permissible.  We like videos and photos!

[samandothers]

Welcome! As SawyerTed stated there is a lot o knowledge here that can help answer questions.  Have fun with your planning.

[PAmizerman]

Hi Griz

Im not too far from you. The big question is how much do you want/need to make a year? It is a very cutthroat market in these parts. To be able to make a living at it in these parts I've found that the only way is to buy logs in by the triaxle load and lots of them. You will have to cycle through a pile of lumber in a year to make a decent living.
Lots more to talk about but don't have time right now. I'll have to check back in

[PAmizerman]

Couple a questions to get started 

Who/what is you're intended market?
Individuals? wholesale?

Hardwood? softwood? pallet stock? ties?
What do you want to saw?
Location. How big is the flat spot you have? How is access for getting trucks and trailers in and out. Not just pick up trucks. Talking log trucks triaxle and tractor trailers. 
Do you have any equipment now?
Chainsaw? Heavy equipment? Mechanics tools?

[GrampawGriz]

(I had three full paragraphs written, and hit the back button...so here's a more brief, condensed version...)

I'm wanting to focus on furniture grade stuff, although I'm open to milling whatever for whomever. Limiting myself to some kind of niche area when starting out isn't a good idea, to me, but that's where I'd want to guide the business, if possible. As far as truck access to our current location, that's probably a no go - too small of a driveway, with entirely too much traffic. That's why it occurred to me to try and find someone wanting property cleared and possibly using that property as a semi permanent site, or as a staging area from which to transport logs. 

Equipment plans are to, God-willing, get a tractor/end loader this coming spring, as well as a good chainsaw (Stihl), and perhaps a suitable used trailer. Otherwise we're probably in pretty good shape. 

This whole thing is still in the idea stage at this point, but you're giving me a lot to consider that I hadn't thought of before.

Thanks,

Griz

[SawyerTed]

Don't get overwhelmed.  It will take some time to learn the basics of sawing lumber and slabs.  So after you get your mill, you will need to have some practice logs around. Don't put a walnut log on the mill first thing. 

During that learning time you will begin to get an idea of the equipment you will need. 

I'm still learning and building up my rolling stock.  

[caveman]

GrampawGriz, welcome to the FF.  There are a lot of people on here who know the ins and outs of producing lumber.  Many have described a mill as just on tool in the process.  Some of them even make a lot of money doing so (I am not one of them). 

It is a slippery slope.  If you are not careful, you will be building drying sheds, building solar kilns, buying a kiln that gets hot enough, long enough to sterilize lumber, buying big planers and jointers, increasing truck and trailer capacity, acquiring more adequate support equipment, canthooks, and eventually you will probably decide that a diesel powered, hydraulic mill is more productive and easier on the body than a manual model.

Others, like Magicman and Nomad, fit better into the category of Mercenary Sawyer.  They just saws em and leaves em.  This business plan is not as slippery of a slope.  Good luck.

[Southside]

Welcome to the Forum, this is the place to explore what it is you are trying to pursue.  Your idea of pursuing furniture grade lumber is a good idea, but you need to have a plan for what to do with all the lumber that does not make grade.  Even the best logs have a tie or pallet stock in them as that portion of the log is not suitable for high end material.  You might not need a kiln, if you can find someone to dry your lumber for you, but selling small quantities of green, high grade, lumber will be a challenge.  The retail customer wants something that is ready for them to work with today, they don't want to buy lumber and have to sit on it to dry and possibly move so they expect you to remove that risk by selling them dry stock.  

The good thing is this is a business that you can grow and adapt into - assuming you don't need the income / positive cash flow - right off.  

Look around at what the other mills in the area are doing - then find a way to do something completely different, become the guy that does things nobody else will do and the customers will find you.  

[Ron Wenrich]

I've been around several operations in PA, some successful, some not.  First thing to do is to decide your market.  Retail or commercial.  Retail often means you have to have something in stock for a today delivery time.  Commercial markets are usually a lower price, but the lumber generally is green, and markets will take a large volume of lumber.  I've dealt mainly in these markets.  For one thing, you don't have much lumber that you cut on speculation and hope to find a buyer later on.  You will need some of these commercial buyers for ties or pallet stock, unless you're going to get into secondary processing.  

After you get your markets in order, you're going to have to figure out where you're getting your logs.  That means you'll have to either buy logs or buy standing timber.  If you're not familiar with logging, log and timber values, or have the equipment, then let someone else do the logging.  Its just one less headache you'll have.  But, you should be familiar with different grades of logs.  The worse the grade, the lower the value of lumber on the other end.  You don't want to pay too much for logs.  You might want to look at other mills' log prices.  I've seen a lot of mills go under due to finding affordable logs.

You'll also have to decide what you're going to do with the waste. The commercial mills sell sawdust, chips and bark, which adds to their bottom line.  

You'll also have to put pencil to paper to figure if you're going to make any money.  Profit = Lumber Value (includes waste products) - Log costs (adjusted for overrun) - Operating Costs.  Operating costs = fixed costs + variable costs.  Fixed costs are anything that costs you even if you aren't making lumber.  Those things are like insurance, taxes, and equipment costs.  Operating costs are repairs, fuel, and the like.  I always liked to figure things out on a per thousand board foot basis (Mbf).  So, you should know how long it takes to make a Mbf.  

You will need to get these things together to figure out how much you need to produce to make a living at it.  

Another option is to go portable and offer custom sawing on the job site.  Lots of options there and the up side is that you don't need to buy logs or sell lumber.  You don't have to worry about waste products.   You are offering a service.  You just need to know how much to charge for the service.  Capital input is lower. 

[GrampawGriz]

Well, I've definitely come to the right place. Y'all are full of valuable information, and I appreciate your advice. I'll be sure to take notes for future reference.

One thing I've learned, is that I probably want to go portable. Although it's more capital up front, I believe the flexibility afforded will make up the difference. I'm also looking into building a solar kiln, for my own use, if nothing else.

Anyway, gotta run. Thanks again, guys.

Griz

[Magicman]

One thing I've learned, is that I probably want to go portable. Although it's more capital up front

Yes more capital investment in the sawmill but not necessarily in support equipment.  I am 99% portable and have zero support equipment; no tractor, loader, anything.  I furnish no help so my board foot/hourly rate is only based upon travel/setup, the sawmill, and me.  

That being said, I would have hated to show up on yesterday's job without a "big boy" sawmill.  Full and strong hydraulics is absolutely necessary when tackling some of the big/long logs that you will encounter.

[GrampawGriz]

Thanks, Magicman. I'm thinking about the LT35 Hydraulic, especially if I could find a more affordable used one (not likely, I'm sure). I didn't think about not needing support equipment with a portable operation, but it does make sense. It looks like the considerations are beginning to be resolved.

Thanks again.

Griz

[SawyerTed]

Griz, I have the LT35 Hydraulic.  I'm running a near 100% portable sawing business part time.  I do saw here on occasion mostly personal but I have had customers bring logs here.

The LT35 will saw up 32" diameter logs.  That's the max distance from the bed rails to the blade with the head all the way up.  I have whittled down 36" logs by slabbing off the sides.  I don't recommend it unless it is a high value log and worth the time.  Mine was a clear 9' red oak to be quarter sawn.  The lumber was worth the time.  The max width of board is 26".

The hydraulics have handled 30" diameter by 14' white oak logs ok.  The saw is fast enough to saw as fast an off bearer can work in pine sawing framing lumber.  Neither the hydraulics or sawing speed are what an LT40 Super Hydraulic will do.  The LT40 Super Hydraulic is definitely faster.  It is definitely more expensive.  If money were no object I'd have an LT 40Super Hydraulic or larger.

IF I were trying to make a living instead of supplementing my retirement income (and staying busy), I'd have an LT 40 Super Hydraulic at minimum.  

Given my 7 months or so at the business, my best day sawing was this morning.  We sawed for 3.5 hours and averaged just above 200 board feet an hour.  That's with me and a very good off bearer (tailgunner).  We quit to rest before getting up hay.  I'll be going back later this afternoon when it isn't so hot.  

There's enough sawing business in my area to keep me busy full time if I wanted it that way.

[GrampawGriz]

Ted,

Thanks for the input. All things considered, I'm starting to believe more firmly that the LT35 Hydraulic is the way I want to go at this point. Considering that a portable operation doesn't require the usual support equipment, maybe we'll get into a mill even earlier than we'd originally thought. 

With that in mind, I suppose now is the time to get my intended work truck finished and ready for spring sawing. I'm looking forward to it.

[Southside]

The 35 will take you a long way. They are very user friendly and economical to own and run. If tyo decide to upgrade some day it will hold a lot of its value. 

[Lko67]

I've had my Lt15 for about 3 months and can say if you sawed every day it will be hard on you. It is fun just manual labor.

[SawyerTed]

BTW, get the debarker!  It WILL save money in the long run. You will get more board feet of lumber per blade sharpening using the debarker.  Even if you purchase used, add the debarker if it isn't there.

[Southside]

The 35 will take you a long way. They are very user friendly and economical to own and run. If tyo decide to upgrade some day it will hold a lot of its value. 

[tylerltr450]

Going portable is also a tough market to get into. Lots of people call bend your ear for 20 mins then never call back, its good to have some sort of mobile calendar to keep track of calls and dates to be milling. Also if your going to be cutting portable figure out your charge methods, hourly vs BDFT, setup fee and mileage. There are a lot of guys in the PA portable milling scene like myself and its a cut throat environment. I have had people flag my ads on craigslist all the time, which I know its some other sawyer. Thankfully now I only do business that is word of mouth since I am now established enough.

Also take a hard look into support equipment to move logs I have gone to countless job sites where people don't have logs easily accessible and takes twice as long to get the job done. If you are going solo I would suggest in unique ways to move logs around without killing yourself.

Also I suggest you practice on your own logs first before going to a customer and not quite knowing how everything works. 

[GrampawGriz]

At the present moment, this is where things stand for me:

- Continue to learn what I can here, on the forum, by asking even more questions.

- Learn everything I can from every resource I can, about the forestry/logging/milling industries,and about business and marketing, both in general and as pertain to these industries specifically.

- Start preparations for (God-willing) getting to work next spring, so that by mid-March I'm ready to hook up to the LT35 Hydraulic and head to my first milling job...at age 52...

Thanks again to everyone for your input and advice so far. I'm eager to learn as much as I can.

I spent several hours today researching and downloading PDFs related to this industry from the Penn State Extension site, Wood Mizer's Learning site (planning on getting their DVD set ASAP), and several other sites. Study begins tomorrow.

Have a good one, and God bless.

Griz

PS - Time to get into shape!

[Magicman]

A website detailing your services is an absolute necessity. 

[GrampawGriz]

Absolutely. Already planned on a website, although...how soon should the website go public? If I'm wanting to be working by mid-March, it it has to be up & running before then, but how soon? 😕

The sooner the better probably, right?

[Ron Wenrich]

Write a business plan before you get too far ahead of yourself.  Don't set timelines that are too ambitious.  Its real easy to spend a lot of time and money on enthusiasm.  

[GrampawGriz]

Ron, 

That's the first thing that worries me. I have no idea how to write a business plan, but I reckon that should be my research/study priority at this point.

Tomorrow morning.

[SawyerTed]

Just some rambling observations from a guy that jumped in the portable sawing business at age 55.  I've had my mill about seven months and I'm now sawing 3-4 days a week which is about all I want.

Consult with your insurance agent - buy insurance for the mill and for the business before you leave your property to saw the first log.

Don't scrimp on personal safety equipment for you and your help.  Put safety in your business plan.  I keep gloves, safety glasses and earplugs enough to offer to helpers as well to use myself.

It's a good idea to do a lot of practice sawing before you start sawing for customers.  Put the practice sawing in your business plan.  Training needs to be part of it.  There are costs involved so practice sawing is a business expense.  If you happen to either need the lumber personally, sell it or burn it in the fire pit, the costs of the log, mill time etc. are covered under training expense.

Practice sawing on some inexpensive and forgiving logs - poplar and pine for example.  It is better to avoid too big or too small when beginning practice.  I found 16-20" diameter to be a good size for practicing.  The more uniform the better to begin with.  Then move on to sawing oaks and other species.  Too often the excited new sawyer has a walnut (insert other species) that he's been saving until he got his mill, only to find that he ruins it by sawing it before his skills are up to the task. Or the new sawyer tries to saw a "junk" log that is difficult to saw under any circumstances.  I tried to saw some oak to begin with, it didn't turn out well and I'm burning the results in the fire pit this fall.

Learn to saw stickers of uniform dimensions.  I like 1x2 others have other preferences.  Learn to stack with stickers properly and neatly.  If possible go ahead and saw stickers in advance.

Know that it may take weeks of sawing full time before you see much production.  Learning to set up for efficient log input, efficient lumber out put and waste management takes some time. Helping customers understand that they must stage the logs properly is important.

Read and re-read your owner's manual.

The advice on a business plan is critical to follow.  Don't let one or two customers sidetrack you from your plan.  The plan has to consider the market.  I've learned my market is limited because I don't yet have a kiln.    It takes time and energy to develop markets. You have to shake a lot of hands, give out a lot of cards, put up signs, create the website and or Facebook page.  I've tried to work with some local agricultural events to set up and do sawing demonstrations but schedules haven't worked out yet.

Starting out you will probably feel like have to nearly every job that comes along. Experience will teach you how to sort them out and decline certain jobs.

Set company policy.  That sounds kind of silly for a one-man operation but it goes a long way.  I'm a portable sawyer, not a tree service.   It is company policy that I do not cut trees down for customers.  Setup fees and mileage fees are company policy.  Free onsite pre-sawing consultation with the customer- company policy.  

Build business alliances, there are businesses that your service will compliment.  I have a tree service that I work with to take select logs.  I pay a small amount per board foot to offset his time and equipment to load.  Occasionally one of his customers wants logs sawn into lumber.

[tylerltr450]

Lots of great points by Ted.

I have a question why push so hard on a website? I work in IT doing everything for websites to ERP systems. Websites are a make or break for a business, while it sure is nice to have one the cost to design one properly and efficiently and be trackable by the spiders of the web can take a lot of money. Unless you are doing it yourself then I would say knock it out. here is some info on how to be found on google search How Google Search Works - Search Console Help

I don't use a website I only have a facebook page and craigslist ads (which I dont use anymore) and I have had more than enough exposure to customers. If I were you I would probably start simple (Aka free), most people want to stay in the social media environment that they love to use (instagram, facebook, twitter). I would suggest posting on those sites at least 2 times a week to keep your base going.

[Magicman]

I have a question why push so hard on a website?

Virtually all of my "out of town" portable jobs and many locals are "website" found.  Everyone is toting a smartphone.  Google "portable sawmill (location)" and my site is #1 after the advertisements.  Kinda "Magic".   ;)

[tylerltr450]

I have a question why push so hard on a website?

Virtually all of my "out of town" portable jobs and many locals are "website" found.  Everyone is toting a smartphone.  Google "portable sawmill (location)" and my site is #1 after the advertisements.  Kinda "Magic".   ;)

Magicman isnt just magic he is the man!. I would say thats a great job, how old is your website? It is extremely hard to get to be number one anymore, if you are a new site. I created a site for a storage company and I just got them to number one after a year. 

[mike_belben]

Equipment is deductible but you need income to deduct it against.  Its always sort of a shame to hear of someone who waits until retirement to start buying the business assets when they could have been getting huge refunds from their w2 wages that would essentially buy the equipment and perpetuate the deduction cycle.  It smooths the transition from living on w2 earnings to living on 1040C earnings.  


Anyhow, save every receipt and find a good accountant.  Youll need to learn how to keep good books or the accountants will all hate you.  No showing up with a shoe box of receipts, it needs categorization and tallying.  But you need to know in advance how to sort that all out.  The biggest thing is undestand capital expenditure vs capital depreciation.  Some expenses are deducted all in one year and some are spread over a span of years.  If you spend 30k on a mill and dont have any income to deduct it against this year, well the good news is itll generate a little for the next 6 when you hopefully will have more. 


Im glad you said you were going mobile because your site and situation sounded terrible for stationary.  I have a sloped lot on a dead quiet road thats pure clay with a narrow entry. I own a bunch of equipment and its still a huge amount of work getting a site suitable, dirt is all ive done for a year. When you said no equipment, busy road and rocks i thought man, do i tell this guy just forget it or what?  I was gonna suggest you buy a big crawler loader with a drott bucket and go into the pasture clearing business until you can generate logs and a good spot to setup your mill out on someones farm in exchange for some sawing.  Farms always needs fences and shed lumber as cheap as possible.  And they always expand by clearing trees. 

Equipment really is a slippery slope.  If you can afford it, its worn out.  Now youre a mechanic too.  If its nice fresh new equipment you gotta work your butt off to pay for it and pray it stays running when warranty ends.  I always thought retirement was for golf or fishing?

[petefrom bearswamp]

Best of luck with your business venture griz.
If I didnt have a pretty good SEP fund, social security, small State pension  and my wife having a pretty good pension, social security, a reasonable SEP fund  and very good health insurance with us having zero debt, I would not be sawing period.
I have had a mill since 2000 and must be very inefficient cause I would be a lot thinner  if I relied on sawmill income.
Granted I am kind of old and slow and getting feebler every day and I have other obligations (read wife stuff) to do.
Sawing is for me just plain fun with enough money made to pay for my hunting, fishing and bar bill.
I admire those of you that are savvy enough to make a go of it.

[GrampawGriz]

The more I learn, the more questions come up it seems. But that's how it goes, isn't it?

To be honest, all the points that have been brought up can be a bit overwhelming. But I'm motivated. This is what I want to do, and for several reasons.

First off, I believe I could make a decent living from sawmilling alone, but then I think of the myriad of other possibilities that could come from it. My Wife and I both have always had an interest in woodworking. For me it would mean plenty of stock for guitar bodies and necks, while she would be more interested in making furniture. Either way, there's potential for more income.

Then there's the relatively rural/wholesome nature of it all. Being closer to nature. Closer to God. Not to mention the privilege of being the first being other than God to see the inside of a tree. I've seen plenty of videos revealing beautiful grain patterns, and I'm sure seeing it all second hand doesn't come close to the first hand experience.

I'm all in. Now if I can just get things organized and sorted out, in my own mind, on paper, and finally in the real world.

And I believe I'm going to make a YouTube channel documenting the whole process, from as soon as possible, until, God-willing, I can pass it all on to my now five year old Grandson.

Thank you all for your input so far. I'm looking forward to learning even more as the calendar pages continue to turn.

God bless,

Griz

[Magicman]

Sawing and building stuff does not bring in an income but finding, developing, and supplying a market will.

[GrampawGriz]

Finding, developing and supplying markets will take priority, of course. Making awesome stuff that can be sold for a premium will come later. 😎

[Southside]

Just keep in mind that the more finished/valuable lumber requires additional equipment and handling. I would not want to be making and selling kitchen tables with lumber which has not been kiln dried. Now, outdoor benches and rustic picnic tables - that can be done with air dried, rough sawn lumber.

[GrampawGriz]

Southside,

I understand. I have plans to build a 750-1000 Mbf solar kiln, I'm just not sure when. Thanks for the outdoor furniture idea, though!

I do have a question. As far as portable mills go, is there a registration or any licensing involved, concerning road use? I don't remember seeing license plates, or even any taillights on the portables I've seen in videos. But that doesn't make sense, to me.

Thanks again.

Griz

[tylerltr450]

Sawmill = Farming Equipment so no registration or licensing, I was assume you need tail lights at least.

[GrampawGriz]

Yeah, okay. That makes sense. 

Thanks! 👍

[Southside]

Can't say about PA laws, but here in Virginia portable sawmills are exempt from registration and are considered to be a piece of equipment - as long as you don't try to haul things on the mill - then it becomes a trailer and the exemption is gone.  Best to check with your motor vehicle department.  

I don't know about lights being required - they are not on log splitters that are also exempt - but any portable mill I have ever seen has lights on it.  I would not haul a mill without lights.   

[PAmizerman]

I was told no license or registration is needed here in PA. As long as you don't haul anything on it.

[PAmizerman]

I was told if I ever got stopped to tell the officer it is an implement of husbandry

[Southside]

I was told if I ever got stopped to tell the officer it is an implement of husbandry

If that fails try -- You are inexorably seeking a sedulant probability.  Grotesquery?  No?... What about contingent affirmation?  That's gotta mean something.   :D

[GrampawGriz]

😂😁😂

[GrampawGriz]

Update:  Came up with a name for the business, at least for now - Environmental Milling Services, LLC. 

Opinions?

Started working on the business plan today. Wish me luck...

Griz

[Tom the Sawyer]

That would be a huge kiln, perhaps start with something like 750-1000 bf.  ;)

Google to see if there is a chapter of SCORE near you.  Service Corp of Retired Executives are retired business professionals dedicated to helping small and new businesses do pre-planning, business plans, growth planning, survivor planning, etc., all for free, or very low fees.

[GrampawGriz]

Tom, 

That's exactly the size kiln (solar) that I have plans for. I actually started looking over the proposed area where it might be built this morning.

Thanks for the heads up on SCORE. I'll be looking them up tomorrow morning for sure.

Griz

[flyboy16101]

Welcome the the forum. I'm just down the road from you in New Castle. In our area we have a couple things going for and against us. As far portable milling goes it's seams to be a fairly steady work, I run my mill part time and the work seams to show up enough to keep me busy so I haven't advertised or gone after additional work to much. I think with a little advertiseing it could be steady enough for full time. The big thing against being only portable in our area was shown this year with the weather. I had a hard time get to some of my travel work done. I have my mill set up at the house under roof also so I can saw when the weather is not so great. Cranberry/ Pittsburgh seams to be a good market for live edge slabs and grade boards. But it might be hard to get rid of the lower grade boards due to a couple bigger mills and a lot of Amish mills in our area being a lot cheaper then we can really compete with. Message me if you want to stop out and look at what I have set up or I can stop out and look at where you were thinking about putting your mill and maybe give you some ideas.

[Magicman]

I have plans to build a 750-1000 Mbf solar kiln

I don't believe that you caught Tom's statement about a "huge" kiln.  ;) 

[GrampawGriz]

I reckon so. I guess I'm missing something...

Oh...okay. I get it now... Lol.

[Ron Wenrich]

I think flyboy makes a good point about the weather in PA.  Being portable may be seasonal work.  You won't be doing much during the winter months, especially if you get much of those lake effects snow storms.  When everything melts, you'll also have a mud season.  You need to factor those things in on your business plan.

Even as a stationary mill, my most productive months were May and October.  The least were the winter months, as logs freeze and the mud that is on them freeze to them.  Partially frozen logs will give you fits, and the quality of lumber falls off.  How do you justify that with your client?

[GrampawGriz]

Tom, 

I've looked up SCORE Pittsburgh and have gotten started with them, learning more about writing a business plan first. Thanks.

Ron & flyboy,

I've wondered about how seasonal this venture might be from the beginning. I've heard that frozen trees can be sawn, but it sounds like a tedious, potentially problematic process, so I'll probably not get into it. I'm going to roughly set my "season" from April to November, just to leave room for getting rolling in the spring, and shutting down before archery season gets away from me. 😎  Again, thanks for the advice.

Griz

[GrampawGriz]

Update: This business plan is giving me a headache. Lol.

For those of you who've done it, how did you conduct your market research, exactly? I have some general ideas, but require some solid specifics.

Aside from that, my focus right now is to use the level spot on the property as a place to park the mill (maybe), and definitely as a place to build at least one 750-1,000 BOARD FEET solar kiln, with the possibility of additional kilns in the future, solar or otherwise.

Tomorrow we do a transmission swap and get the business truck back on the road.

God bless,

Griz

[Ron Wenrich]

Market research can be tricky.  First thing you have to do is recognize the market you're trying to address.  For the ones I've helped on, we were mainly doing commercial markets.  We were also buying either stumpage or logs, not trying to provide a service.  So our log supply and our lumber demand were pretty much the commercial side of things.

If you are doing a service, you have to figure out who you're going to sell your service to.  A lot of times it will be farmers or individuals that have small properties with occasional logs to saw.  That market is a lot harder to nail down.  I'd approach a couple of tree trimmers to see if they run into situations where the service would be of value to their clients.  You'll be taking a sample.  Figure the area where you'll work and expand your sample.  It's not perfect, but should give you some idea of demand.  

The kiln is a different animal.  You'll have to figure out who your market is.  I'd contact some woodworking shops in the area and see what their needs are.  You might be able to see what types of wood they are looking for and what sort of prices they are paying.  I'd also inquire what sorts of things they have a difficult time getting.  It could be your niche.  

Beyond that, you'll have the hobby woodworker.  I'm not sure how you survey that market.  But, looking at the size of supply in your area might be helpful.  In my area, the box stores have a very limited supply of hardwoods.  We had a large mill that had a retail store, but they closed the doors after a couple of years.  Seems that the market is thin, and any downturn in the economy is bad for business.  It could be that prices are too high for the market.

The other side of the market is the supply.  You'll have to figure out who your competition is, and how you can get into the market.  If you're looking at a sawing service, you'll have to know who is your competition.  You don't have to name them, but you should come up with a number of similar services, and if they are full time or part time.  The state should have a list of sawmills in the area.   Look at capacity and weed out the commercial operations.  They aren't your competition.  Same goes for kiln operations.  

After all of that, you have to come up with how you're going to compete with them.  That's where you need to figure out what the current market price is for your service or product, and how you'll compete.  If you can't match the price or beat it, you won't be much competition.  And, that's why you need to do the business plan in the first place.  To see if it is viable.

[GrampawGriz]

Ron, 

Excellent advice and information. Exactly what I was looking for. I'm already taking notes.

Many thanks.

Griz

[tylerltr450]

I would think a 750 , 1000 bdft kiln is a little small, if you do get into heavy cutting you will be waiting for the kiln to finish before you can unload and load in the new stacks. You might be better off looking at getting another one. I also send my stuff out to a guy that can get it done quicker since he has 3 kilns. Might be a good idea to find an option like I have, in order to get our out of tight situation.

Also talk to some local sawyers I have talked to so many of them after getting my mill they all tell you what is going on and who is go to for drying or finishing or so on.

[GrampawGriz]

Tyler,

I'm thinking the same thing on the kiln size, and considering building two. Maybe. 

The thing is, I have to work within my immediate means, which isn't a lot. My Wife and I have sat down and discussed this whole thing very seriously in the past few days, and we're rethinking it. Instead of the LT35, we're probably going with the LT15 Go, to keep initial costs down and still remain portable. In addition, we don't want to have to finance any more than is absolutely necessary. The LT15 Go, two 750-1,000 bf solar kilns, log arch (we're getting a tractor by trade), and a good chainsaw should put us in pretty good shape starting out.

In the next few weeks I plan on talking to a LOT of people, in person. Networking, I think they call it. Should be interesting.

Griz

[Southside]

The Lt-15 is a great mill, several successful members here have begun their businesses using them and did very well by them.  A word of caution has to come with that statement.  You really should spend a day working with a sawyer on a manual mill and a day on a hydraulic mill - this will be invaluable time spent in getting a real world understanding of just what is required and what each set up can do.  Only you can decide what your physically capable of on a day in day out basis and sawmilling is a very physical venture, manual milling that much more.  Those experiences will help you make an educated decision about the value of hydraulics vs the value of a lower investment.  Personally I can tell you I would have lost all interest in sawmilling if I had started out with a manual mill, which was my plan until I was talked out of it.  

There are plenty of saywers closer to you than I am but you are welcomed to spend a day here if you find yourself in the neighborhood.  

[tylerltr450]

The Lt-15 is a great mill, several successful members here have begun their businesses using them and did very well by them.  A word of caution has to come with that statement.  You really should spend a day working with a sawyer on a manual mill and a day on a hydraulic mill - this will be invaluable time spent in getting a real world understanding of just what is required and what each set up can do.  Only you can decide what your physically capable of on a day in day out basis and sawmilling is a very physical venture, manual milling that much more.  Those experiences will help you make an educated decision about the value of hydraulics vs the value of a lower investment.  Personally I can tell you I would have lost all interest in sawmilling if I had started out with a manual mill, which was my plan until I was talked out of it.  

There are plenty of saywers closer to you than I am but you are welcomed to spend a day here if you find yourself in the neighborhood.  

Excellent point before I purchased I helped run a completely manual mill 2 times. After that I knew hydraulics were for me, way to much effort required to turn big logs and load them onto the mill. I felt that I couldn't be efficient enough to run a mill for customer on site.

[thecfarm]

That's why I say,If I Don't Do it,It Don't Get Done.
I have an all manual mill. But I only saw for myself. There is ALOT of work with a manual mill. AND alot of time wasted too.  I would not want to try to make a steady income with a manual mill. Even if I was 20 years old.
Now if sawing slabs or high figure lumber that is worth more than a 2x6 or a 1x8 than that is different.
Watch a video of a hyd mill. Every time that logs is flipped,moved that is once that you have to do it with a cant dog or a peavy. Some logs,well most logs are heavy!!!!!

[Ron Wenrich]

Look at used equipment.  More bang for the buck.