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Started by flhtc, January 24, 2003, 03:26:04 PM

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flhtc

Yes it does have a pump.  When I started pumping I saw a lot of dirt and air in the line.  I unhooked the line and pumped fuel through it until I got rid of all the dirt.  I then hooked the line back up and pumped until I did not see any air bubbles.  I then flipped on the glow plugs for about 15 seconds and it started fairly easily.  It runs but does not have enough power to cut.  Could it be that the fuel injectors are dirty and not allowing enough fuel through or is the engine damaged.  As soon as I pull the hydralic lever to raise the head the engine starts to bog down, enough so that even at full throttle the blade stops spinning.  It has a centrafugal clutch.  I am leaning towards poor fuel delivery but do not know what to do next.  But last night I didn't know where to start but with help from you guys I have learned a lot today.  i would have rather been sawing.  I still need to learn how to do that.
FLHTC

Larry

Making progress at least.  Now it sounds like you have water in your fuel tank.  I would drain the tank and refill with #1 diesel since it is cold.  An alternative would be #2 with an additive called Power Service.  If that fails I would guess dirty injectors but I am far from an expert.
Larry
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Mark M

flhtc (that's a funny name, what were you parents thinking? ;) )

It's not unusual to pump out some dirty fuel with the primer because they don't get used very often and sediment will collect. Also I would expect to see some water and sediment in your sediment bowl. Does it have a separate water separator and could it be that what you changed it instead of the main filter? There could still be a fuel filter in the system.

Also you should have a drain valve on the tank to drain water and sediment, open it and see what comes out (this should be done every couple of days). If the tank hasn't been drained recently you could have re-plugged your new filter. When changing filters I don't recommend pre-filling them with fuel for the simple reason that most people dump fuel into the center opening in the filter. This is the filtered side of the filter and so unfiltered fuel gets a free ride into fuel pump. If you insist on filling the filter, get a little funnel and fill the outer holes. I've seen more than one fuel system damaged this way in my 20 years working at the Cat dealership. I also know it sometimes takes a long time to pump the filter fuel so I understand why people do this. Trust me that unfiltered fuel is very dirty even if it looks clean.

A couple of other questions: did it seam to have plenty of power before it quit? If so is it colder outside now than then? If so you  could be dealing with gelled fuel due to low temperature. You might want to start over with fresh fuel after draining the tank.

Send some close-up pictures of this engine if you can. I don't know what it looks like.

Good luck
Mark

Mark M

Larry you beat me to the fuel drain, last night Nobel beat me to the open petcock. I am just too slow typing my responses :)

It's good there are so many people willing to help this fella. That's one of the things I like about this group!

Mark M

flhtc

Larry

My wife said from the start that I had water in the fuel so that was the last thing I wanted it to be.  I hate it when she's right about mechanical stuff.  It happens a little too often.  I guess its easy when your standing back watching someone else get frustrated.  I'll try draining the fuel in the morning.  It was fourty degrees today so I should have just gotten the Harley out and went for a ride instead of fighting with the mill.  It never breaks down.

flhtc

FLHTC

flhtc

Mark

My parents thought gee this kid may not be pretty but he sure will look good on a Harley.  I ride an Elactra Glide classic (flhtc).  Just in case you were wondering its never been on a trailer.

flhtc
FLHTC

Mark M

Hey I used to have one of those, an 1980 FLH with a side car. It was a tan and cream Classic. We added the side car when we had our first baby. Then 2, 3, 4 - whooa! not enough room anymore. I sure wish I had it back.  :'(

Tillaway

There could be algea growing in the tank as well.  If it is old fuel it may pay to drain it all and clean the whole system.

Good luck.
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

dan-l-b

I agree with everybody 8) 8) Just want to reiterate the part about using a deisel fuel additive like Power Service or FPPF.  They will not only keep your fuel from jelling, it will seperate the water and sediment out of the fuel.  Everything I have is diesel except my mill :D :D  You can find an additive at a truck stop.  Good Luck   Dan

Tom

Not having power could still be air in the fuel line.  Air is death on diesels.  you have to get rid of all of it.  While it is running crack the lines open at the injector, one at a time, until they run pure fuel, not bubbles.  If air is the problem you'll know immediately upon tightening the line back up.  There have been times when I've spent an hour trying to purge my lines in the field after running out of fuel.

Bro. Noble

Tom beat me to the air problem.  I would bet that that is what it is if the engine ran normal before.  Be careful about opening lines as the fuel is under extreme pressure.  A pin hole leak can cause severe cuts or inject fuel into you with very serious results.  The air will eventually work it's way out of the system but I don't know if this can cause damage.  We usually carefully open the line at the injectors.  You can check injectors the same way------like pulling a plug wire on a gas engine to see which cylinder is missing.

flhtc,  bet you sleep better tonight than you did last night.  I thought of you all day and was anxious to see what you found.

Noble
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Mark M

Good point on the injectors, I hadn't thought of bleeding them, it's been a long time since I worked on an engine with external injectors and I forgot all about 'em. If you are getting gray smoke cracking a line can help track down which hole it is coming from. Sometimes it's hard to hear a miss but looking for smoke will help.

After thinking about everything that has been said I am beginning to think the fuel problem may have been the main culprit all along. If there is a lot of sediment in the system it probably sloshed around when the saw was moved, ultimately getting into the filter and plugging it up. This could be the reason it quit in the first place and not due to overheating. If it was overheating enough to make it quit then the engine would smell and feel hot. I recently burnt up the engine on my Honda generator. I was doing a twice-a-year check and started it up in the garage. It seemed louder than normal but I figured this was because I was inside. I plugged in my little compressor to give it a load and it just stopped instantly. When I went to restart it the engine wouldn't turn over. What we found is the throttle has stuck open (hence the louder noise) and it was oversped which lead to a seized rod bearing. There was no doubt that it had overheated, I just couldn't figure out why. Now I have a tachometer wired to it so I can make sure that doesn't happen again. I'm going to put one on my sawmill engine too.

Speaking of water and sediment, we deal with these kinds of problems pretty often in the lab. There are some simple things you can do to help reduce problems. When possible refill your bulk tank late in the day and preferable right before a weekend. This way all the crud that gets stirred up will have a chance to settle over the weekend or at least overnight. Drain the sediment out of the tank first chance you get. When refilling your equipment, do it at the end of the day so it gets to settle overnight too. If you don't when it cools down moist air will be drawn into the system leading to condensation. If the tank is full this won't happen. Drain the water and sediment every couple of days, diesel fuel really picks up water – it is a fact of life. If you have water you have a good chance of having fuel bacteria/fungi (sometimes called algae). These organisms require water to live and exist where the fuel and water meet. They have a filamentous grow (mycelia) that extends up into the fuel, which plugs filters. The fuel biocide kills the microbes but the mycelia still plug up the filters until it is removed. If anyone is interested in diesel fuel I put together a presentation for our customers at http://www.butler-machinery.com/Fuel/FUEL%20PRESENT_files/frame.htm

Mark



chet

Running but low power sounds like air in the fuel system, or restricted fuel flow. Check filters and tank screen if you have one, are you using blended fuel (diesel can gell at low temps). When bleeding air from fuel system on small diesels, finish the bleeding process right at the injecters. While the engine is running crack each fuel line at your injecters one at a time to release any traped air. Small diesels are very unforgiving to even the slightist amount of air in the system. What model engine do you have?
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

flhtc

To all

I'll try bleeding the air out of the lnes in the morning.  It ran better the longer I let it run so hopefully air is the problem.  I am a lot lass worried than I was last night so I bet I do sleep better.

flhtc

FLHTC

ADfields

I would go for bleeding at the injecters but WATCH OUT this can hert you in a hart beat.   It can cut you open, inject fuel in your finger, put your eye out ect. the fuel pressure (rail pressure) at the injecter side of the pump is very very high!!

Now what I did not see hear is about air leaks.   You changed the filter and you could have a air leak letting air IN the systom as it is running.   This is some what comman if you reinstaled the same filter and gasket, sucks air in but no fuel leaking out.   Also you should have 2 filters in the fuel line, first is a water filter with a petcock on the bottom then the true fuel filter but thay are sometimes both bilt into one can.   I would change them both with new filters ASAP and keep new ones on hand.

Now for jelling.   #2 is rated down to 0f if it's dry (no water) and #1 down to -30f but you will use about 30% more #1 fuel to do the same work as #2, I can feel the power drop in my Cummins p/u every year when I switch to #1 for the winter.   The Cummins also go's from 28 to 30 MPG on #2 to 16 to 23 MPG on #1 fuel.   This is why truckers used to blend fuel, now thay just run fuel heaters in big trucks called an "arctic fox" so thay can run #2 in very cold weather.
GOOD LUCK
Andy

woodmills1

If the thing ran better as time went on I would be nearly certain it is related to air.  my case dozer is like that if I am not careful when changing filters.  hope you can sort this out and slice some boards.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

dewwood

One additional item to check is the fuel flow from the tank to the filter and or pump.  I have had a couple of experiences with obstructions in fuel lines causing poor performance.  If the engine is not getting enough fuel for whatever reason it will possibly run at an idle but when a load is applied it can't get enough fuel to run properly.  I had a new tractor that had moth sacks (the little brown fuzzy things) in the tank from the factory and caused a lot of grief until we finally discovered the problem.  

From what you have said it sounds like a fuel problem of one sort or another.

Good luck!

Dewey
Selling hardwood lumber, doing some sawing and drying, growing the next generation of trees and enjoying the kids and grandkids.

flhtc

To all,

Could not get the mill to start this morning.  The battery is a little low from yesterday.  It is 14 degrees here today with a cold north wind.  I am going to charge the battery today and probably won't work on the mill.  Just too cld for me.  I fired up this smoker put on some ribs, turkey breast, chicken and ham, threw a log on the fire and am getting ready for the super bowl.  The temp is supposed to be better the rest of the week so I took a vacation day for Thursday and will start again then.  Thanks for all the help I will keep you posted.

flhtc  
FLHTC

ADfields

WAY TO GO BUCKS!!! 8) 8)

Weekend_Sawyer

FLHTC,

 I had a similar problem when I bought my used skid steer, it has a water separater and then filter, I cleaned the mud out of the separater, replaced the filter and then ran the battery down trying to get it going again. After a day of messing with it I called New Holland and they went through the bleeding procedure with me. I now have the owners and service manuals. I Highly reccomend purchasing the manuals.

BTW, I am the proud owner of an 03' FLHRI Road King.
Wish it was warm enough to ride it.
Imagine, Me a Tree Farmer.
Jon, Appalachian American Wannabe.

flhtc

Wekend_Sawyer,

I wanted an 03 model but opted for the sawmill instead.  If the mill ran I'd have the best of both worlds.  I didn't have to work at my second job today so I rushed home to work on the mill.  I had my wife crank the motor over while I bled a little air out of the fuel lines at the injectors  It started up but still does not have any power.  When I try to bleed the line for the front injector the motor dies.  When I bleed the line for the back injector I can not tell any difference in the way it runs.  I would guess that means I only have one cylinder firing.  The engine is a Kubota ZB950-NB.  I am going to a Kubota dealer on Thursday to order manuals and if need be I'll see if they can bleed the lines for me.  There isn't a water seperator on the engine that I can see.

flhtc
FLHTC

Fla._Deadheader

As much as I like the "do-it yerselfer" I think you just posted the best idea. Get professional help the first time and pay attention. Try to start with fresh clean fuel. A fuel filter- water seperater is a must on diesels. Get one with the bleeder on the bottom.  We have them on the boat for the outboards. Wouldn't be without 'em. Good luck.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

chet

Flhtc you didn't say if you had fuel flow from the lines you opened at the injecters ( the ones that didn't seem to make a difference). If you had good fuel flow with no air and there was no difference in the way it ran when you opened it, you probably have a dirty or bad injecter. If you have good fuel flow at some lines and not others, you could still have air in the system or are getting air into the system. Then again you could have a rack problem.
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

flhtc

I took my mill to a local implement dealer this morning.  We could not get it to start.  All the mechanics were buisy so the owner said if I didn't mind helping he would work on it himself.  After bleeding all the lines and having no luck he pulled the fuel filter took a wif of the diesel fuel and decided that was the problem.  I drained the old fuel out,  went and got some new stuff, filled her up and bled the lines.  It took a while but she fired up.  It only ran for a couple seconds when the motor really came to life.  The fuel was the problem all along.  I wished now I would have listened to everyone and changed it out a week ago but I didn't want to go throught the hassle of bleeding the lines again.  I brought th emill home set it up and started sawing logs.  I only had a couple free hours but I got one small cherry log cut into grade lumber and one large elm cut into pallet material.  Now I'm having fun.  Thanks to everyone for their help and patience.
FLHTC

Tom

Glad you got it going. That was a fun challenge for all of us.  Welcome to sawmilling.  That kind of thing happens to all of us, the neophytes and experienced as well. It's great to have someone to bounce ideas off of, isn't it? :)

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