Dangers of custom drying

Den Socling · October 25, 2005, 05:22:37 PM

If you do custom drying for people you don't know, you might expect that once in awhile somebody is going to say 'hey that was good wood. There shouldn't be any cracks' or 'there shouldn't be any warp' or 'I brought more wood than that'. But, with the way we charge, I never expected what happened last winter.

I was doing custom drying and I was telling people that it was OK to mix species and thicknesses in our vac kiln. I was getting some mixed loads that I couldn't believe from a couple of the guys at this forum. One guy brought a load that had cherry, maple and black walnut. He had 4/4, 8/4 and 12/4. He had straight grain, curly wood and crotch. What can you do with a mix like that?

We charge for the hours of kiln operation and nothing else. If we dry your 4/4 cherry in two days, it cost $108. If we dry your 12/4 walnut crotch in two weeks, it cost $756. For this guy, I ran a schedule that got most of the wood dry in 6 days but I suspected that the couple pieces of 12/4 walnut crotch weren't dry. But neither did any wood have any damage.

When this guy picked up his wood, I told him that the thick crotch probably wasn't dry and that I would give it more time with other loads at no cost if he found any wets. We didn't have an invoice ready, I had talked with him here and, when he asked if I needed a check, I joked that I could trust him. Stupid me.

After a month or so, he hadn't paid the invoice and my wife called. He said he didn't get an invoice so we sent it again. Another month or so and he says his mailman is in Iraq and he isn't getting his mail. After 4 months, he says his would was wet and he's not paying. I point out that we figured it wasn't all dry and we charged him for kiln hours and not a dry load. He says he isn't paying so we took him to court. I thought it was an open and shut case. Stupid me. We charged him for kiln hours that he got. We didn't damage his wood. He could finish it off anywhere. How could we lose?

I don't know why but that idiot judge said that this guy didn't have to pay us anything because some of his wood wasn't dry. Go figure!

If you are going to do any custom drying, have a lawyer prepare a disclaimer freeing you of all liability. Don't touch anybody's wood if they won't sign. And don't forget the possibility that some customer is going to get a splinter because you left a needle sharp piece of wood hanging out.

Jeff · October 25, 2005, 05:34:47 PM

That totally sucks Den. If that was a member of this forum, they should consider themselves NOT WELCOME HERE. There has been a couple 3 instances of low lifes creeping (or is that low-life creeps?) on here that got past our preliminary jack-ass detectors. Once I identify this one, he will be dealt with as the others if possible.

This forum is about helping one another. Anyone that uses it for things like what this fellow did to you needs to DISAPPEAR.

As a warning to other members. Be careful who you deal with. Make sure they are established, known members of the forum and have some sort of legitimate references before you risk your hard earned dollars.

old3dogg · October 25, 2005, 06:18:26 PM

Meaning no offence here Den but I alway thought you were smarter than that.

How many years did we work together and you never trusted me! ;D

Hope Jeff finds the bugger and gets him out of here so no one else has to deal with him. I mean gee! You semi dried 12/4 Walnut and didnt crack it. Thats no easy feat!

Jeff · October 25, 2005, 06:24:17 PM

Now Tom's concerned that he has been demoted to jackass inspections. I keep telling him its DETECTION TOM not INSPECTION!

Jeff · October 25, 2005, 06:25:09 PM

Chet and Paul are in charge of inspections. ;)

Tom · October 25, 2005, 06:27:03 PM

...........

Oh yeah?! Well.............. Oh yeah?! :-\ :D

oakiemac · October 25, 2005, 06:59:53 PM

Den, sorry to hear about your bad luck. I know someday it is bound to happen to me as well. I don't have much faith in the legal system. Seems like it is just here to help the bad guys.

Jeff, you jack ass filters aren't very strong 'cause I'm still here.

Don_Lewis · October 25, 2005, 08:02:04 PM

Some of the larger commercial kiln dryers have standard release forms that they use. We all have to get burned before we believe everyone isn't what they seem and we get serious. I have always urged people to use release order forms but I know many of the smaller guys don't. We don't dry lumber but we have had to get tighter on terms. And the only way to do it is to treat everyone exactly the same even if you know they have perfect credit and are super honest. If you start trying to make judgement calls, you can only end up missing someone or upsetting someone. People who would never think of walking out of K-Mart without paying or using a credit card, will load a truck with dried lumber and say, "Bill me later." and be insulted if you ask them to treat you like they would treat K-Mart, that is pay up.

ElectricAl · October 25, 2005, 08:33:36 PM

Den,

We feel bad for you. No one like to get burnt for the hard earned $.

We have not been financially burnt, but a got a ear burning phone call.

Dude brought in a couple of Walnut Fire Wood logs. He wanted it sawn and dried. At first I refused to do dry it. The man insisted we do it. Linda tried to explain what would happen to the wood when dried. The man claimed he was a professional woodworker and could deal with the problems. So begrudgingly we sawed and dried it. He picked it up as a bundle on his trailer, so he really did not see how nasty it was until he got home. He had already paid ;D

Now first impressions stand firm, "NO" means "NO"

We'll saw their firewood, but not dry it. ;)

Gabby · October 26, 2005, 12:51:11 PM

Sorry about what happened. Was it made very clear to the judge that the job was for "time in kiln" not dry lumber to say 6%? Also did you have a shark (opps, lawyer) represent you in court?
ps I can say whay I want as two of my sons are lawyers!

Den Socling · October 26, 2005, 01:50:43 PM

I thought that I made it clear that the charge was for 'kiln hours' but I went in without a lawyer. Stupid, stupid me. The guy we took to court had a lawyer and I thought he was doing nothing but wasting everybody's time with all his stupid questions. Oh well! like Patti said, what if we went to court for something serious? We have seen enough of a court room with that short experience. ;)

Jason_WI · October 26, 2005, 02:08:07 PM

Den,

Sometimes we eat our mistakes and it sucks. I have a guy that owes me 200 bux for sawing and lumber he got from me. Looked like a guy that I could trust. Always has an excuse as to why he hasen't paid yet or he's getting paid on this day and he will stop over to square up. It has been 4 months and I haven't seen any green.

Sounds like you need a signed contract stating the service you provide is "kiln hours" and not dry wood. Even if someone brings in 2 boards, treat everyone the same.

I may have another use for that blue 60" cant hook----persuader ;D

Jason

Ga_Boy · October 26, 2005, 06:57:05 PM

Jason,

A Hookaroon makes a nice persuader as well.

rebocardo · November 04, 2005, 07:45:39 PM

> when he asked if I needed a check

I do a lot of urban tree removal and I try to always get the first 1/3 payment for any job in cash. Then I take checks as the job progresses. That way I do not get totally stiffed for anything. I point out my payday is everyday and they probably would not leave their work place without their paycheck on pay day.

Rockn H · November 04, 2005, 10:38:15 PM

I hate to read post like this. It's aggrevating to say the least when these things happen. I've been sawing for a lot of Mexican's that live around here lately and quite a few don't want to sign my contract because they can't read it. I haven't had any problems so far, but I have started giving them a copy a day or so before hand so they can have someone read it for them. ;)
The one thing that I hate about my contract is the clause stating that the customer is responsible for removing the scrap and saw dust from their property. I had to add this after I wound up getting a nasty letter from a lawyer on behalf of a former customer. I never had to clean up anything, but everytime I read it on the contract it's just a DanG reminder.

Den, ain't it a crying shame we have to go to such lenghts to protect ourselves? >:(

Jason_WI · November 04, 2005, 11:41:40 PM

Rockn H,

Google has a translater that might work to translate into spanish...

Jason

Rockn H · November 05, 2005, 12:09:45 AM

Jason where or rather what should I google for to find that translator. I've thought of getting one translated, I just keep putting it off. :

Fla._Deadheader · November 05, 2005, 01:13:35 PM

I use this one. Works VERY well, so I am told. Just copy and paste the text into Notepad and There it is, whenever you need it.

http://freetranslation.paralink.com/

Corley5 · November 05, 2005, 01:46:36 PM

I had a similar experience with hay sales this past summer. I haven't been to court yet and am hoping I can trust this guy to still pay but his time is running out. He got 441 bales of hay off the wagons and I even let him use my trailer to haul them home. I've known of this fella for years and have known him for a couple and never thought he'd do this or he'd of been paying for every load before it left the barnyard but I thought he was trustworthy and he may still be ???. Until a couple days ago I hadn't talked to him since the week before Labor Day when he came to tell me how many bales he'd gotten and his figures were inline with mine 8), no problem there, and that his wife would be up the next week with a check

. He did tell me he hurt his shoulder putting the hay in barn. No check showed up and no phone calls ???. I let it slide for a while. Everyone runs into shortfalls sometimes especially in the fall but then it'd gone too far >:(. I'll work with anyone, I'll take payments, even excuses ;) a couple times but this was zero communication. I started calling him a couple times a week and never talked to real person just a machine >:( and no callls were returned >:( >:( >:(. Finally four days ago I got him on the phone. The message I was going to leave that time was that if I didn't recieve some sort of communication in a weeks time I was going to begin preliminary legal proceedings which would have begun with bills delivered via registered mail. He did answer the phone actually his wife answered and gave it to him or held him it for him. He told me he'd had rotator cuff surgery and had been laid up for quite sometime. See he's only got one arm and a prosthesis with a machanical hook on the other ;)

;D. The surgery was on his good side so he couldn't answer the phone, or drive, let alone put his artificial arm on. He said he'd be around in a couple weeks as his recovery was getting better. We'll see what a couple weeks bring. His wife coulda called me back from one of the messages I left :

441 bales at 1.75 a bale is too much to let go. That's what I paid for stumpage on one farm. Unfortunately there's lotsa people out there that are just plain dishonest. :( :( :( I don't think this guy is. I hope it is genuine misfortune

Rockn H · November 05, 2005, 10:26:49 PM

Hey Deadheader, thanks for that link. I tried a few sites earlier and they didn't like my check boxes and a few symbols. The one you suggested didn't have a problem figuring out what to translate and what to leave alone. ;)

Fla._Deadheader · November 05, 2005, 10:37:22 PM

8) 8) Works for me 8) 8)

Kedwards · November 13, 2005, 06:34:04 PM

I had a customer just a week and a half ago drop off about 250bf of Oak to be dried. I told him it takes about a week to dry (Didn't say when it would be put in the kiln) he dropped off the wood after hours (LATE) and then just called asking if he could pick up his wood. I told him it wasn't ready and that its is suppose to go in the kiln this week. He got all in a knot about it not being dried on time and that he needed it for a job this month. I told him that he never communicated when it needed to be done and that it will be a week or two before it is complete. I also communicated that if the timeframe wasn't acceptable he can pick up the trailer tommorow. I guess I will just have to communicate better my timeframe it will be done and see if it meshes with their timeframe.

How do you gentlemen handle customers like this?

Frickman · November 13, 2005, 08:23:07 PM

Kedwards,

I tell these kind of folks that the road in front of the mill runs two directions, east and west. Pick one and head on down it. These kind of folks have always been around, and will always be around, so nothing I can do will change them. There is enough "good business" out there that I don't worry about losing some of the hard cases. I let my competition deal with these people, I won't.