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which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?

Started by pdbrandt, September 10, 2018, 03:42:38 PM

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pdbrandt

Thank you for all the advice, guys.  Especially useful was the advice about using the smallest bar feasible.  When I went out yesterday to check out the saws the 562 was already sold.  The 365 special was having trouble getting started and had clearly seen a lot of use.  The 575 was a beast with a 28" bar.  It ran well and would have worked well for me, but I ended up buying a saw from the guy that I didn't know about when I posted the original message.  I got a never-before-used 2009 Redmax GZ7000 for $475. It is the identical twin to the Husqvarna 570.  I used it this morning to cut up a 28" diameter maple trunk and I'm very happy with it.  Thanks again.


John Mc

Quote from: Pulphook on September 12, 2018, 06:33:21 AMThe "world" is Downeast Maine.


You might want to edit your profile to include that. It's often helpful in discussions on here knowing where someone is from, since that gives you at least some idea of what conditions are like in their area.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

John Mc

Quote from: HolmenTree on September 12, 2018, 10:34:03 AMActually with a 90° open face cut (humbolt on bottom cut) you can cut a much larger diameter tree then 32" with a 16" bar.
Here my 1986 Stihl 064 owner manual explains it quite well.

Also a video of Soren Ericcson using a early 064 with a 18" or 20" b/c making a good presentation.
I got a pile of  Soren's 1980's safety instruction VCR tapes.
This one I put on YouTube (thanks to my 11 year old daughter :D) by my phone recording off the TV screen.
Good thing I kept my old VCR :)



 

 
https:/youtu.be/pLAvjw7lb9A
I have used that a few times, though it's very seldom needed for the size trees I typically run into around here. For the most part, if I need that technique, it's an old "wolf pine" that grew up in a pasture years ago, and has now had a forest grow up around it.
BTW, that's a nice diagram. Since I'm artistically challenged, my attempts at tree felling drawings generally aren't very recognizable. (Some years ago, my daughter looked at one of my stump sketches and said, "no, Daddy, that's not how you draw a horsey!")
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

DelawhereJoe

I think those RedMax are re-labeled / rebranded Jonsered saws. So basically you have a Husqvarna 372xp thats red & black with a Jonsered sticker covered up by a RedMax sticker. It should do everything you need it to do and if it does there are tons of parts out there to fix it. It will definitely save you time and money over the small saws, just be careful with all that extra power.
WD-40, DUCT TAPE, 024, 026, 362c-m, 041, homelite xl, JD 2510

Pulphook

Soren E. is the originator of GOL. It is competitive sport as method teaching.
Two wood stoves ( Jotul Rangely ,Jotul Oslo ) heating 99 44/100%
24/7. No central heat. 6-8 cords firewood from the woodlot /year. Low low tech: ATV with trailer, 3 saws, 2 electric splitters, a worn pulphook, peavy, climbing line for skidding, Fiskars 27, an old back getting older.

John Mc

Quote from: Pulphook on September 12, 2018, 07:40:04 PM
Soren E. is the originator of GOL. It is competitive sport as method teaching.
They do make a bit of a "just for fun" competition out of their classes, but I wouldn't call it competitive sport, unless you choose to enter in the regional and national events, which involve some serious competition. Those regional competitions are not about teaching, they are a competition plain and simple - but they are not really a part of the courses they offer (other than making use of the techniques taught in those courses)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Skeans1

Quote from: HolmenTree on September 12, 2018, 10:34:03 AM
Quote from: Pulphook on September 12, 2018, 06:33:21 AM
Quote from: John Mc on September 11, 2018, 06:29:11 PM
Quote from: Greenerpastures on September 11, 2018, 07:12:25 AMIn all honesty, in our part of the world we run as small a bar as gets the job done, one never sees bars like the op mentions on the saws he mentions.


What part of the world would that be?

I agree - I typically run 16" bars on my saws, but then 80% or more of what I'm cutting is 16" diameter or less, and 95% is 20" or less. The 16" bar does not come off unless I know I'm going to be doing a significant amount of cutting over 16". I'd rather carry a smaller, lighter saw all day even if it means I occasionally have to do some extra cutting here and there.
Nailed it. My best tool is the brain and body with that "smaller, lighter saw...all day."
Fatigue, decreased capacity for work in any weather with time leads to errors. I don't want it harvesting for hours.
Besides, with a lighter pro saw ( now down to a MS261 ) and a shorter 16" bar I can do up to +/- 24" DBH trees safely and efficiently.
The 16" bar makes it easy to touch up with a stump vise in the woodlot when touching rot, dirt, barbed wire, or the usual round in the trunk.
I'm no pro, but do take 6-8 cords out each year plus blowdowns and trail work for local groups. The 261 fits nicely in a backpack.
The "world" is Downeast Maine.

Actually with a 90° open face cut (humbolt on bottom cut) you can cut a much larger diameter tree then 32" with a 16" bar.
Here my 1986 Stihl 064 owner manual explains it quite well.

Also a video of Soren Ericcson using a early 064 with a 18" or 20" b/c making a good presentation.
I got a pile of  Soren's 1980's safety instruction VCR tapes.
This one I put on YouTube (thanks to my 11 year old daughter :D) by my phone recording off the TV screen.
Good thing I kept my old VCR :)



 

 
https:/youtu.be/pLAvjw7lb9A
What no block face or windows?

HolmenTree

Soren is just doing a one on one  tree demonstration. He's not working off a face on a logging strip. :D
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Pulphook

Quote from: John Mc on September 12, 2018, 08:07:05 PM
They do make a bit of a "just for fun" competition out of their classes, but I wouldn't call it competitive sport, unless you choose to enter in the regional and national events, which involve some serious competition. Those regional competitions are not about teaching, they are a competition plain and simple - but they are not really a part of the courses they offer (other than making use of the techniques taught in those courses)
Our GOL 4 part course was run by MEMIC in Maine. The method of instruction for cuts was a very competitive sport, and fun.
Example: dropping a tree to a target stake when the lean was 90 degrees opposite to the fall. Or, in a 20" DBH trunk making the 2 bore cuts meet without cutting through the hinge. Tough at first...humbling.
If we didn't use the brake when moving around a tree, the instructor would tap us on the shoulder, stop the cut and de-brief the errors. It was like a benevolent D.I. :'(
Two wood stoves ( Jotul Rangely ,Jotul Oslo ) heating 99 44/100%
24/7. No central heat. 6-8 cords firewood from the woodlot /year. Low low tech: ATV with trailer, 3 saws, 2 electric splitters, a worn pulphook, peavy, climbing line for skidding, Fiskars 27, an old back getting older.

HolmenTree

I had the same issue about 8 years ago when I took a "train the trainer course" for a arborist training company.
We were all having turns in 2 man teams measuring the tree height with a stick and felling it .
While making my face and backcuts I walked more then 2 steps without putting the brake on, I got my hand swatted twice by a stick  :D
My whole game plan was a mess and I was running that saw like a beginner :)
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

John Mc

Quote from: Pulphook on September 13, 2018, 04:43:04 AM
Quote from: John Mc on September 12, 2018, 08:07:05 PM
They do make a bit of a "just for fun" competition out of their classes, but I wouldn't call it competitive sport, unless you choose to enter in the regional and national events, which involve some serious competition. Those regional competitions are not about teaching, they are a competition plain and simple - but they are not really a part of the courses they offer (other than making use of the techniques taught in those courses)
Our GOL 4 part course was run by MEMIC in Maine. The method of instruction for cuts was a very competitive sport, and fun.
Example: dropping a tree to a target stake when the lean was 90 degrees opposite to the fall. Or, in a 20" DBH trunk making the 2 bore cuts meet without cutting through the hinge. Tough at first...humbling.
If we didn't use the brake when moving around a tree, the instructor would tap us on the shoulder, stop the cut and de-brief the errors. It was like a benevolent D.I. :'(
Sounds just a lot mine, but compared to the regional and national competitions, this is more just something to make it interesting. All of the folks in all of the classes I took were very supportive of each other, and as one person was cutting, the instructor was pointing out to the rest of us things they were doing correctly and things they were missing. I learned as much from the commented observation as I did from actually felling the trees using the GOL techniques. In my GOL 4 class, we spent the day intentionally hanging up trees, and then using a variety of techniques to get them free.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Maine logger88

Quote from: HolmenTree on September 13, 2018, 07:15:49 AM
I had the same issue about 8 years ago when I took a "train the trainer course" for a arborist training company.
We were all having turns in 2 man teams measuring the tree height with a stick and felling it .
While making my face and backcuts I made more then 2 steps without putting the brake on, I got my hand swatted twice by a stick  :D
My whole game plan was a mess and I was running that saw like a beginner :)
When I took the clp course the chain brake thing and keeping my face shield down are what got me in trouble the most lol
79 TJ 225 81 JD 540B Husky and Jonsered saws

ehp

I got my master ticket for Ontario , Im suppose to be one of 6 people with it . My biggest problem was when they said I had to use a file guide to sharpen a chain and I told them I would not , they said there was no way I could hand file as good as they could using a guide so I hand filed a chain and gave it to them to look at and 5 seconds later I got to take the chain off his hands , he grabbed it and was going to just move it around like a new chain , that's a big no no and the blood was flowing pretty good . After that we seem to get along a lot better ;D

John Mc

In my life, I've met a couple dozen of people who say they can freehand file a chain as good or better than with a guide. I've met 3 who actually could. (Sadly, I am not one of them - not that I've made a serious effort at learning. The results I get with a guide work fine for me.)

Ed, I can believe that you are one of those who actually can.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

ehp

a guide will dull the chain as you slide it along , yes I know for most people that still pretty sharp but Im not most people and cannot stand how a chain cuts after using a guide or a new chain out of the box , even stihl 33rs does not cut and has to be filed when brand new 

OlJarhead

Quote from: Greenerpastures on September 12, 2018, 09:57:36 AM
Quote from: OlJarhead on September 12, 2018, 09:11:13 AM
I have a 576XP and sadly had to have it completely rebuilt under warranty.  It was running lean and no amount of adjusting (by the local Husky repair folks) would stop it from burning up.  Sent it off and got it back running nicely.  It's still going well but I'm not too keen on pushing it.
Sorry to hear that, very disappointing to spend ones cash and have to go through
such a repair, I know a lot of people who had melt downs and they were messed
about something chronic, shop blaming them and refusing to sort the saws, pleased
you at least got sorted, I am stumped though that this sort of thing is still happening
with the time they have had to fine tune this system, will it ever be fixed or are they
nursing it along until the come out with fuel injection systems, hard to beat an ordinary
carb, they could have been smart enough to enable the fitting of a normal carb and just
let the auto-tune handle the spark timing, I for one would be swapping in a carb if this was
the case, wonder who is really to blame for lumbering us with this epa rubbish, did the epa
push the manufacturers, did the manufacturers push the epa, or are they in together so we
have to keep replacing our machines thus making someone else rich.
Mine isn't an autotune but they have made it so you cannot richen up the saw enough.  It was running lean and I kept getting the run around from the local 'approved' repair shop.  Sent the saw back to the original retailer and they took care of me.  I've not pushed the saw yet but I've run it enough to 'break it in' I believe.  Plan to run it harder soon though and see what happens.
2016 LT40HD26 and Mahindra 5010 W/FEL WM Hundred Thousand BF Club Member

John Mc

Quote from: ehp on September 13, 2018, 10:42:13 PM
a guide will dull the chain as you slide it along , yes I know for most people that still pretty sharp but Im not most people and cannot stand how a chain cuts after using a guide or a new chain out of the box , even stihl 33rs does not cut and has to be filed when brand new
You lost me there. How does this guide dull a chain? It makes absolutely no contact with the cutting surfaces.



I tend to use the one shown below (though I have and do use both styles). I can understand the concern over dulling the chain, since it rests on top of the cutting tooth during use. However, even then, it's just about parallel to the top plate. If you are putting the kind of down pressure on the guide that would deform the cutting edge of the top plate, you are most likely not using it correctly. The sharpening stone I use to sharpen knives is at a steeper angle to the blade, and uses similar (or greater) pressure, but does not dull the knife.


Note: I'm not saying that you don't get better-performing chains by hand sharpening, Ed. Lord knows, you've done a lot more of this than I have. I'm just questioning if that is because the guides somehow dull the chain, or if you have developed a technique that results in a better or more aggressive cutting profile.

I doubt the guides give the best results for all uses. For instance, all of the roller guides I've found are set up to guide you to a 30˚ angle. For me, that's OK for semi-chisel chain, but I prefer a 25˚ angle for full chisel chain. (25˚ also happens to be what the manufacturer recommends. Maybe I'd find an angle or a depth I like better if I played around with it enough. I just haven't taken the time to experiment.)

To the OP: sorry for the topic drift. I hope at least some of the discussion is of interest.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

outinthewood

As already said, a little devation from the original question but ! The Husqvarna guide shown ( the blue one) will not cause any drag across the tooth but will wear on the rollers and end up giving to much of a "hook" on the cutter. If you hold the solid "stihl" or "oregon" metal type guide as intended i.e pressure to the rear of the tooth then no problem but if you don't do that then yes you are dragging the frame across the cutter edge ! I said in an other post that I cut a lot of windblown timber and on the sale I've just finished yesterday I was sharpening 6/7 times on a 400mt run, I'm in front of a harvester so it's all about time so I freehand and about every 4 times use a guide or with the best will in the world you just go to far into the back of the cutter and too much hook ! I'm well aware of Mr EHP rep and was of the same view but the clue is in the name "guide" I find I get a good bit longer out of a chain doing this. 


HolmenTree

Ed is right the file holder guide does dull a cutting edge.
The trouble is the rib in the middle where the middle of the file rests on snags the cutting edge on both ends of the rib.
Here is a brand new Oregon file holder guide that I marked the underside of the rib with a black felt marker.
With just a few strokes of the file on the cutter both ends of the rib has a shiny wear mark on them from the cutting edge.


 

Also notice the wear marks on the chrome layer on top of the cutter. This is just from 2 strokes from the hardened steel guide.
Not good for the longevity of the chrome layer throughout the life of the chain.

Another trouble with any kind of guide is you can't support the cutter you're filing with your free hand.
I like to get a solid grip of the cutter I'm filing, which makes filing accuracy such much easier.
Using a guide is like trying to filet a fish while it's still flopping around :D
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Skeans1

Just curious I keep seeing you guys put chisel and all I see is round ground teeth, what happened to square was chisel and round was semi?

John Mc

Quote from: Skeans1 on September 14, 2018, 09:46:44 PM
Just curious I keep seeing you guys put chisel and all I see is round ground teeth, what happened to square was chisel and round was semi?
Chisel vs semi-chisel has to do with how the side plate meets the top plate: chisel has a squared-off corner while semi chisel has a radius or chamfer where they meet. How you grind it is not what makes it chisel or not. You can have round-ground chisel chain or square ground chisel chain. Semi-chisel is always round-ground (or at least that's all I've ever seen - I'm not sure what the point would be in square-grinding a semi-chisel chain).
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Skeans1

Quote from: John Mc on September 14, 2018, 09:56:49 PM
Quote from: Skeans1 on September 14, 2018, 09:46:44 PM
Just curious I keep seeing you guys put chisel and all I see is round ground teeth, what happened to square was chisel and round was semi?
Chisel vs semi-chisel has to do with how the side plate meets the top plate: chisel has a squared-off corner while semi chisel has a radius or chamfer where they meet. How you grind it is not what makes it chisel or not. You can have round-ground chisel chain or square ground chisel chain. Semi-chisel is always round-ground (or at least that's all I've ever seen - I'm not sure what the point would be in square-grinding a semi-chisel chain).
Why don't you guys west of the Rockies run square?

HolmenTree

Quote from: Skeans1 on September 14, 2018, 10:01:36 PM
Quote from: John Mc on September 14, 2018, 09:56:49 PM
Quote from: Skeans1 on September 14, 2018, 09:46:44 PM
Just curious I keep seeing you guys put chisel and all I see is round ground teeth, what happened to square was chisel and round was semi?
Chisel vs semi-chisel has to do with how the side plate meets the top plate: chisel has a squared-off corner while semi chisel has a radius or chamfer where they meet. How you grind it is not what makes it chisel or not. You can have round-ground chisel chain or square ground chisel chain. Semi-chisel is always round-ground (or at least that's all I've ever seen - I'm not sure what the point would be in square-grinding a semi-chisel chain).
Why don't you guys west of the Rockies run square?
Another history lesson Skeans. :P
Square ground chisel bit chain and old growth fir, cedar and redwood go together like bread and butter.
Starting about 60 years ago handfallers in that timber needed a slick cutting chain to pull those big 1/2" chisel chains (some bigger in 9/16" 5/8") with long bars in softwood that will plug up a round filed chain.
Making stumps 4 ft off the ground and walking on the tree to limb it poses alot less  danger dulling those keen edges.
Outside of the PNW center of the universe loggers have perfected felling ,limbing, topping and bucking smaller timber at ground level. 
We can whip out the file and touch up a 20" chain in just a few minutes and go back at it..... and him and his skidder operator partner will have 60 cords of 50 ft tree length in the landing by the end of the day.
Now how many fallers on the west coastal areas touch up or can hand file a badly dull chain at the stump today?
Maybe fumbling changing out bench ground chains?
You ever see a good butcher or chef who can't sharpen his tools right on the job?

Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Skeans1

Quote from: HolmenTree on September 14, 2018, 10:30:02 PM
Quote from: Skeans1 on September 14, 2018, 10:01:36 PM
Quote from: John Mc on September 14, 2018, 09:56:49 PM
Quote from: Skeans1 on September 14, 2018, 09:46:44 PM
Just curious I keep seeing you guys put chisel and all I see is round ground teeth, what happened to square was chisel and round was semi?
Chisel vs semi-chisel has to do with how the side plate meets the top plate: chisel has a squared-off corner while semi chisel has a radius or chamfer where they meet. How you grind it is not what makes it chisel or not. You can have round-ground chisel chain or square ground chisel chain. Semi-chisel is always round-ground (or at least that's all I've ever seen - I'm not sure what the point would be in square-grinding a semi-chisel chain).
Why don't you guys west of the Rockies run square?
Another history lesson Skeans. :P
Square ground chisel bit chain and old growth fir, cedar and redwood go together like bread and butter.
Starting about 60 years ago handfallers in that timber needed a slick cutting chain to pull those big 1/2" chisel chains (some bigger in 9/16" 5/8") with long bars in softwood that will plug up a round filed chain.
Making stumps 4 ft off the ground and walking on the tree to limb it poses alot less  danger dulling those keen edges.
Outside of the PNW center of the universe loggers have perfected felling ,limbing, topping and bucking smaller timber at ground level.
We can whip out the file and touch up a 20" chain in just a few minutes and go back at it..... and him and his skidder operator partner will have 60 cords of 50 ft tree length in the landing by the end of the day.
Now how many fallers on the west coastal areas touch up or can hand file a badly dull chain at the stump today?
Maybe fumbling changing out bench ground chains?
You ever see a good butcher or chef who can't sharpen his tools right on the job?
There's still a few of us that can file both to get through a day, even so how many cord is a 200' say 3.5' on the stump fir? Most of us swap out the chains because it's more productive when you can only hand cut for six hours a day. These same chains do really well in hardwoods as well such as alder, maple, and oak. Last time I was on a job that was hand fell all the stumps were ground level faces put in on the low side undercut first for as low as possible, heck most of the back cuts were just a small step.

HolmenTree

Logging where I'm at on level ground with line or grapple skidders and where  you're at  are apples and oranges in total differences.

Back in the 1960's when us farmers here thought we were good loggers, we didn't know what real production was until the Frenchmen from Quebec and the Finlanders showed up, they doubled our production and we learned real quick.

Best production here in limbed 55 ft topped at 3.5 "spruce and iack pine treelength with butts at average 12"- 16" diameter piled at the landing for 2 guys is 60 cord average a day . 
Thats alot of trees and we worked 7 to 8 hrs 5 days a week.

And I can guarantee you any of the fallers in our camps can file a round filed 72LG or 33 RS  chain at the stump and make it cut faster in a 16" log then most of your guys trying to do the same with a square file.

Making a living with a saw since age 16.

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