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Forwarder Down

Started by Gary_C, November 05, 2013, 05:44:55 PM

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Gary_C

My forwarder is down with first a gearbox and now the rear bogie drive giving trouble. The problems in the bogie drive were in the hydraulic brakes and required a complete teardown of the bogies, rear differential, and brake housings. It appears the problem was in seal failures in the brake pistons. So I ordered all the seals, back up rings, o-rings and support rings for both brake chambers. The price was $1500 just for the seals.

So I cancelled all the seals and went with just the ones that were visably damaged. The worst one was a Parker piston seal that is 125mmx110mmx10mm and there are four total in both brake chambers, two that were damaged.

I called a Parker distributor and found out the seal was made in Germany and I would have to order 10 minimum at just over $8.00 each. But lead time was 60 days. Not going to work with a machine down.

I found a similiar but larger diameter seal on another companies machine that would cost $27.00 each. Can't make that work either.

So no choice but to order from the Komatsu warehouse that is just about 4 blocks from where I was last working. Price from Komatsu, $148.86 each or 4 for $595.44. I can't actually order from the Komatsu warehouse but thru a dealer and they assured me that Komatsu charges them well over $100 each for those seals.

All that for an $8.00 seal.

Been down for a week and a half now and should have all the parts tomorrow. Hopefully I will be back running by Friday.

Boy do I hate chasing parts.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

1270d

There is a slight mark up on forestry parts isn't there?   I was looking for a new potentiometer for a joystick in the harvester.   67 cents.  Minimum order 5000.   Deere won't sell the part individually of course.  They will happily supply a whole joystick pod for 1500 though.

Ken

It absolutely amazes me at the mark-up on some items when a dealer has exclusive right to the sale.   Hope you are up and running soon.  Do you have a spare forwarder or are you falling behind?  I have to shut my forwarder down for a week of maintenance in the next while and am not looking forward to playing catch up afterwards. 
Lots of toys for working in the bush

treeslayer2003

couldn't you match the seals at a hydraulic shop?

Autocar

There your best friend when your looking at a newer machine but won't work with a fellow on splitting up some parts to help you out. Repairs like that makes your year end look pretty slim.
Bill

snowstorm

the bogie stop driving on my rottne last summer. all of a sudden it stoped. it has an electric valve. unpluged the wire even took the magnet off didnt help so i caped the hoses that fixed it. some how the spool must have stuck. yes parts prices are way to high. i had a dealer refuse to order a $2500 part because he was only going to make $200 on it. so i went across the river to cat they didnt have a problem with ordering it

Gary_C

Quote from: treeslayer2003 on November 05, 2013, 06:17:31 PM
couldn't you match the seals at a hydraulic shop?

Tried that, no stock in North America.

I am falling far behind with the forwarder down. And it's been a full time job rounding up the parts.

Getting parts for the gearbox was a comedy of errors. One small seal did not fit. Was a mistake in the parts book. That cost a day. Had to replace a steering cylinder and the part number was superceeded by a newer version. But they forgot to mention the new cylinder had larger size fittings. Took another trip and a full day to get the right ones. They are special fittings of course.

I said I was going to complain to Komatsu for all the extra time I lost. The parts man said I would have a better chance of calling Obama and getting him to cancel Obamacare than I would of getting anything out of Komatsu.

Nobody cares. ::)
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

thecfarm

I guess I won't complain about a $250 water pump for my tractor that looked just about the same size on my truck for alot less.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

ga jones

Thats why these companies want all there own parts and designs on there machines. Gone are the days of timberjack and treefarmer true component machines.deere and cat's been doing it forever. People are loyal to a brand name .and there pocket book suffers in return.
380c timberjack c4 treefarmer international trucks jonsered saws. Sugi hara bars d31 komatsu 350 tj grapple

timberlinetree

What a nitemare..know how it is driving around looking for parts you can't find or waiting for the wrong part to come in.wish things where simple. Good luck!
I've met Vets who have lived but still lost their lives... Thank a Vet

Family man and loving it :)

SPIKER

There are SEAL KITS that you can buy and make your own seal, with glue and the like that you cut a roll seal and use a specific glue to make them.   I've used them in past and worked quite well on similar equipment (as long as the chrome surfaces are good that is.)   Ask you hudraulic shop about them or do a google search.   KRAFT in Wooster area would be one possible source in my area I would also make a few calls to custom hydraulic cylinder shops, (we have a good number of them) Custom Hoist in Haysville Ohio makes a LOT of larger diameter multistage ram cylinders for forklifts etc & believe they have ok shop or DID not even sure if they are still in business lol...  I might be able to mussel up some numbers if ya still looking.   

Mark
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

Gary_C

It's still down. Must be the fourth week now with no end in sight. And the worst part is all the work and dollars I've put into it so far has not fixed anything. I now have a better idea of what the real problem is and was, but no idea what is causing it.

It seems the problem is the back pressure rapidly rises on the tank return lines whenever I activate any hydraulic function. And because the valves for some functions have open lines to the tank return when not activated, this back pressure is activating the working brakes, both differential locks, the rear axle disconnect, and trying to shift the two speed gearbox. And it is hard to blame a plugged return line when there is not a common return to the tank. Plus the return filters in the tank were just changed so there is no pressure backup in the tank.

There are essentially two valve banks. The main bank runs the loader functions plus the steering and the blade. The auxillary valve bank runs the brakes, diff locks, rear axle disconnect, and the two speed gear box shifting. And whenever you activate any one function on the main bank, the pressure rises on the return line on the auxillary bank of valves. And there is no common return line for the two banks.

And to make the problem worse, sometimes, but not always when you run more than one loader function, it loads down the engine till it almost stalls. But the main pressure setting is right where it should be.

It's a mystery right now as to what is wrong. And I have gone over my limit on my cell phone minutes this month ordering parts and talking to the service and tech support people. Fortunately my billing cycle ends Wednesday so my minutes reset.

Maybe I'll have to go back to levers and a manual transmission.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

snowstorm

so you think the brakes are back feeding via the return line? and i thought i was the only one that has strange problems with equipment. after having strange hydrulic trouble last summer. mine was the boggie drive. i would cap the hoses of one funcation at a time.

David-L

I hear your frustration, I had a tractor (100hp ) with fwd-reversers that never worked right from the get go. They would come and set the electronic controls with there laptop, set the clutch potentiometer and tell me it was fixed. Almost put a hay wagon through the back of the barn when it jumped into gear one day and my worker was high tailing it into the mow. That tractor as well as the other one ( same brand ) hit the road. Bad service, bad company as they have gotten to big. Back to the old school dry clutch, manual tranny and basic controls, 2002 Valtra , every piece made in Finland and the best tractor I have ever owned. These electronic solenoid valves, etc eventually crap out or make other stuff act funny. hope you get it squared away soon. Seems I could never get an answer over the phone either, they needed to always make the service call and you know that adds up out of warranty.
                 
                                                                                   David l
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

snowstorm

this dose have a piston pump? wouldnt the valve bank for the dif lock ect run at a much lower psi. than the crane. they also must use a signal hose from the valve banks to the pump. the signal line senses the load and tells the pump how much flow is needed by activeing some or all of the pistons. i had trouble when i set the rottne up. because i removed a valve bank that i didnt need.

Jamie_C

Sounds like the load sense is acting up, from what you describe it is sending flow to the secondary valve bank when it isn't required. I would be checking the electrical system for a chafed wire somewhere, somehow your pump/pumps are getting the signal that more fluid is required when it isn't.

Corley5

Quote from: Gary_C on November 18, 2013, 02:22:33 AM
Maybe I'll have to go back to levers and a manual transmission.

Makes me appreciate my old C4 forwarder  8)  Good luck with your machine Gary
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

bushmechanic

 You need a hydraulic diagram for that forwarder so you can trace where the oil flow goes. I was wondering how do you know that the return lines are having pressure build up in them? Did you install a pressure gauge in your return line to actually see if there is pressure there? I wonder how the oil flows in this machine it may be as simple as a priority valve issue loading your pump or as Jamie_C has said a load sense issue. Well I hope you get it sorted.

Andrew Lawrence

Gary, You said the filters were just changed, When did the problem start or should I say what occurred since the machine worked properly. I.e. a shop rag used temporarily to keep dirt out of lines ends up going though the whole system.  Andy
Lawrence Lot Clearing Logging                            To God be the glory

Gary_C

Yes, I do have a hydraulic schematic for the forwarder and we have been looking for any place the pressure can feed back into the return line on the auxillary valve bank. Every time we find a suspect, it proves to not be the cause of the problem. And yes, the load sense circuit is a prime suspect right now. But we cannot find any component that is malfunctioning.

This all started last spring with what we thought was problems in the bogie drive, it's a six wheel machine. After we eliminated the two speed gear box and the entire rear bogie drive as problems, we discovered the work brakes, the diff locks, the rear bogie disconnect, and the shifter on the two speed gearbox were being activated with hydraulic pressure and that common activation can only come from the tank return line in the auxillary valve bank. What makes it so difficult to understand is that all those components were being activated when you used any hydraulic function on the main valve bank. The two valve banks are separate and have separate tank return lines.

So yes, we are now looking closely at the load sense circuits for problems as it is the one common system.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

1270d

Is your load sense valve a check ball or spool valve?  We had a check ball style load sense valve go bad on a harvester.  The ball pounded through the sealing surface inside causing the pump to charge wrong. 
If its a spool type maybe the spool is bypassing.  High hour machine?

SPIKER

Still watching and reading, without electrical and hydraulic schematics it is very hard to say (without a lot of experience on the machine in particular.)   We had issues with electrical connection using hirshmann (square 2 to 4 prong  plug w single screw on top DIN) style plugs, they would get water under them and both sides of valve would power up causing many strange actions.   I would make an assumption the crew pressure washed the machine up prior to starting standard repairs when problems got worse ...   try gong thru all of the electrical connections making sure they are dry.   Also just because there are NEW filters does not mean they are not clogged again or were incorrect ones or as mentioned a rag was left somewhere it should not have been.

Some of the funniest things was couple buddies had engine out & we did head gaskets etc.   They stuffed it back together while I wasn't there but after running it a while something wasn't right.   Pulled off intake to find a rag had been left in the valley tray area.   it was tore up by the lifters and somehow got wrapped around the cam.   Ended up bending a couple push rods and bent the cam.   after new parts tear down and clean up new bearings & all it was going back together,   ready for intake to be set down some smart alack had to wipe his hand with a rag and toss it down into the tray & say well lets try this again lol :D :D ;D

Mark
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

lopet

Are you ever gonna tell us the rest of the story Gary ?
I know it' been a while and I don't mean to spread salt on a old wound but it would be interesting to know, if you ever got the problem solved, or if you gave up on the machine.
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

Gary_C

The rest of the story has not changed. I was down for over six months with a torn quad tendon and surgery. When I was able, I checked hydraulic pressures by the book and everything was OK except a pilot pressure rises from about 500 psi to 1300 psi when you activate any main valve function. And the pressure surge is not coming from the return line circuits. And the relief valve for that circuit is OK so the pressure spike is from somewhere else. It's still a mystery but the prime suspect is the load sense circuit and that runs through every valve on the machine.

Next step will probably be to tear into the main valve bank someday and look for a problem in the load sense circuit which goes thru every valve. In the meantime I've had to plug and cap the lines to the problem functions and get back to work. I don't have any work brake,diff locks or two speed gearbox shift or disconnect but has not been a problem so far as the job I have now is relatively level and without wet spots. I could manually activate the parking brake if I was working on a slope if necessary.

In the meantime I've been fixing everything else. Broken air bag Z spring on the semi, stuck brake on the trailer, rusted out brake line on the pickup, fan failure on the inverter in my camper where I stay, plugged line to septic tank at home, etc. So right now the forwarder is not the squeaking wheel that needs attention. Priority is getting some loads out ($) but a muddy field road is the current problem.  ::)
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

SliverPicker

In my opinion as soon as you have some function on a machine that relies on varying 1/1000ths of a volt to operate properly you are fighting a battle that can not be won.

Why does everything have to have a computer in it these days? Even my coffee pot squeals at me when its done making its luke-warm coffee. Does a coffee pot really need to have a computer?

It think the public doesn't believe a product is any good unless it has kept up from a technological standpoint.

It is a scientific fact that the higher the technology the lower the reliability. This is like a law of physics.  You can't escape it. 
Yooper by trade.

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