Rate per ton for producing pulpwood roadside

MattR · March 28, 2016, 09:31:42 AM

Hi, just wondering what is going on elsewhere . I am foolish enough to consider doing some small-scale logging again . I had a relatively large operation 10-12 years ago , but I could see that was going nowhere . I decided to go back to simply roadbuilding like I had done all my life . I do miss logging a bit and I'm considering doing some small operations in the winter times when things are slow for us building roads . The rate is much better now than when I logged . And fuel is actually down , not that it'll stay that way forever, and the timber company takes care of all the trucking and worries of trucking nowadays. But I have also learned not to over extend myself with high dollar machinery payments . A smaller rubber tired buncher, maybe a Hahn harvester or a slasher and a Caterpillar 518 grapple skidder . Nothing fancy . The going rate for producing here in upper Michigan is about $18 per ton for pulpwood . How is that comparing with what's going on elsewhere? Thanks Matt

Mountaynman · March 29, 2016, 06:37:14 PM

we were getting 52 per cord a few years back to put it roadside random length the slasher guys were getting more to make 8 ft sticks but that was before fuel went up and back down got tired of bouncing thru the rocks in the ADKs and went chasin private wood down in farm country getting about the same for firewood a little more for processor grade on the landing not sure where those guys are for rates now up on the company land don't get up that way much anymore

I don't believe you can do it for much less unless you are on a short skid and in really good wood hope that helps

MattR · March 29, 2016, 09:46:40 PM

Thanks for the response. I was just curious. I guess at $18 per ton, that would come to about $43-$44 per cord. About $10 more than I got 11 years ago. Gotta keep the overhead low.

Thanks,
Matt

chevytaHOE5674 · March 29, 2016, 09:52:47 PM

One thing to look at right now in da UP is how are markets going to be coming out of breakup. Right now all the mills have wood stacked up too the moon. Kind of curious what prices are going to do when the mills decide to run through their inventory and aren't so hungry to build it back up again so soon.

MattR · March 29, 2016, 10:21:28 PM

Talked to a guy in L'anse today. He said LP won't accept anything till into June. And what the quota is, may as well take nothing at all. I'm glad I got out of larger logging years ago. We just build roads for Plum Creek anymore. I do plan to monkey log a little in the future, but with very little investment. Don't want the worry, stress and 7 day work weeks anymore.

I've also learned life is too short to lose it working and worrying. I lost a lot of time while going so hard. Parents dying, kids growing too fast, no life, hunting, playing, etc. And it all happens before you know what happened.

starmac · March 29, 2016, 11:50:01 PM

I am curious, with the op's choice of equipment what kind of production would you expect to get on the landing for an average day?

MattR · March 30, 2016, 06:24:38 AM

Well, I plan to run with a piece meal crew. I have a road building crew as our main duty. They all have logging experience as well. Out of all the excavating iron running, there is always 1 machine down for something. That man would go get his time in with the buncher or parallel decking with the grapple skidder. If none of the graveling iron is down, I would go skid a few hours per day as needed also. I'm excited to actually.

The Buncher would only have to run a day or two per week. Single man Hahn's aren't speed demons, so a 518 CAT can deck enough in a couple days for the Hahn to run for a week There would be only 1 new man on the payroll. He would run the 1 man Hahn, which would run full time. About 20 - 25 cords per day, in nicer wood a bit more.

In winter we keep 2 guys running dozers and graders. I would then put the other guys in the buncher and skidder full time instead of laying them off. With the surplus of wood coming in at that time (much more than the Hahn can eat), I would run the slasher I plan to pick up. We would send all the softwood to the Hahn and hardwood to the slasher. Between the Hahn and slasher we would cut 60-70 per 8 hour day. And if it is only 50, that's still a great day.

Keep in mind this type of equipment is not in demand anymore. I can pick up nice examples of each for about 15 k each, and I have each machine in line right now. The $1800 monthly payment wouldn't take hell of a lot to make. At one time I had $22,000 monthly payments.

We would run old and slow. If it's super cold, hot, or wet, we ain't going! Not only do those conditions suck, but I've learned pushing men and older machinery thru them isn't profitable. Might not run the stuff at all in the summers either. Pressure wash and grease them, park them, and fire them up again after deer season in December. We'll see. I don't need to run them to make the payment, and actually some will be paid off right away.

The goal is to keep men employed, not over-work , finally log in a fashion that will make money, and actually put fun into logging again. Like it was years ago.

starmac · March 30, 2016, 11:14:21 AM

Sounds as if you have a plan coming together, especially as far as keeping your giid hands makeing a paycheck.

I haul logs for a couple of small operations, one of which is simarly equipped except for no proccessor. He uses a hydroaxe shear a large shovel and when needed skids with a dozer set up with a forestry package.
Last in previous years when concentrating on pulp, he would consistantly get 65 tons a day loaded on my truck working by himself except for one hand that would work 20 hours or so a week.
This year the pulp market took a major change for the worse, so he concentrated on natural house logs, then sawlogs, with a little pulp, so things were a bit slower with more hired help.
He does have a hahn, but hasn't used it in several years, since the export market went away.

Firewoodjoe · March 30, 2016, 07:25:43 PM

$18 a ton seems really good. We're in the northern lower mi. and slash 80-120 cord a day. Company's Stumpage not the mills. I don't think our wood comes out that high in profits. But I believe your pulp price is higher hauled to the mill also. Most loggibg equipment around here is still $20,000 plus. Old slashers are $30,000 plus. But id jump in with both feet if all pans out like you say. Especially not having to buy wood.

RHP Logging · March 30, 2016, 07:37:09 PM

If I'm getting less than 60/cord on the landing im not happy. 70-75/cord is more the norm. Minus 10 bucks for stumpage usually. The pulp mill in kaukauna is paying 115/cord. I'm not is serous pulp country either tho. More sawtimber here and less competition in SE WI.

Mountaynman · March 30, 2016, 07:53:06 PM

RHP my figures were after stumpage usually 10 a cord round here more for better wood and a shorter skid you know the deal ive had landowners tell me we should split it and ive told them to get a 1000 dollar saw chaps and the rest of it and you limb the tops and then well split the money on the wood if not its 10 a cord or it stays where it lays 2.7 ton to the cord on hardwood here and 2.55 for hemlock for the conversion what is the hardest thing round here is the woodlots have been highgraded multiple times and the pulp is huge lots of hollow butts 30" plus laying in the woods makes for some fun fallin sometimes we are 100 miles plus from any pulp markets years ago the had a rail siding 30 miles away before they decided to devasate their own lands sell them with the state ending up adding them to the Adirondack park no one will ever cut any wood ever again on the company land that kept men working for over a hundred years sad really sad

Firewoodjoe · March 30, 2016, 08:49:51 PM

Yeah you guys have it made. $20-$40 a cord Stumpage plus $30 a cord for trucking. If you hire it. We don't. And then the highest it hit for 2015 was about $100 at the mill. Our pallet logs are getting just a little more then your pulp. We haven't seen $10 Stumpage in years.

MattR · March 30, 2016, 11:07:33 PM

I would be working for Plum Creek, well Weyerhaeuser now. Cutting company owned land. They do all the trucking. We get paid for just putting it up. $18 per ton. I don't deal with stumpages or trucking. Makes life a bit more simple. I am starting to like simple.

chevytaHOE5674 · March 31, 2016, 12:15:00 AM

You couldn't pay me to cut Scum Creeks junk wood again for 18 a ton. Would have to be more like 40 a ton to make me go back to that junk. Cut for them for a couple years and with our processor/forwarder we were lucky to get 20~25 cord a day stacked roadside in a 10 hour day. Switched companies and are cutting lots better wood and with the same machines we put 40+ cord roadside in 8-10 hours.

On top of that Plum Creek will say they take care of trucking but we had wood stacked up for 8 months on a job because they didn't have any trucks available... (because they weren't paying squat and nobody would haul for them). Mind you this wood was just off a Class A road decked on top of a rock pile so it was accessible in any weather. We finally found our own trucker to get it hauled because we didn't get paid until it was gone.

MattR · March 31, 2016, 03:54:46 AM

First off, I really like the "Scum Creek" moniker for Plum Creek. That's a good one! I know another guy that calls them "Plum Crazy". That's a good one too.

Yeah, there are certainly plenty of stories out there like that. Your not alone. Years ago when I had the bigger operation, we were stuck in Victoria Dam during the wet season. Fighting all the way. Raining nonstop in that horrible clay. We had payments based on our quota, and I remember the day Howard came out and knocked our quota back to like 4 loads per week. We had to get that every day! Just to break even. As if it wasn't hard enough. Then moved to Tri Angle Ranch. Had a CAT 227 cutting beer can sized spruce, 1 stick long. Just couldn't take it anymore. Plus I had to do all the trucking. School costs money, and lots of it.

All that said, now I won't have big payments. Don't need to take super crappy jobs, and won't. On the Amasa end, those truckers don't put up with crap. If the roads don't get graded, they don't come. That makes them listen. Then the roads get graded. I know, we're the graders.

So I think they are starting to learn that people have had enough of being walked on. But no doubt, they are cheap buggars and are out for #1. This all comes back to why I will never trust them or any other large company again. I will not put myself in debt enough where I have to take anything they tell me to. I was stung very badly before. I was too trusting, not only with them but other things also.

But all those big companies will pecker you without blinking. Verso just went bankrupt. Boned Danny, Greg and Paul Younggren out of $80,000. John Vuk in L'anse out of about half that. Just to name 2. And where are they still hauling? You guessed it. Like Dan says, "when you have payments and they're the only game in town, what do you do?" What a slap in the face. Stone Container disappeared faster than the geese leaving for winter. Literally. Left people like Turpinens and many others high and dry. In fact all of Ontonagon got screwed. They didn't blink an eye, no matter how the town begged. They did what was profitable for themselves. Then the railroad was "kind enough" to start pulling tracks.

So they all suck. The key is to know that, and plan your life and financial moves accordingly. Don't trust anyone, don't be married to payments where you have to eat crap. At least that's the direction I am heading.

As I've said before. Loggers really aren't self employed. Loggers are hard working operators and maintenance men that also make the payments. The mill TELLS YOU what they will pay. The big companies TELL YOU what the production rates are. There is no negotiating. At least not enough to truly make a difference. Maybe a nickel, so you feel like you won. But it really doesn't make a difference, and they're laughing cause we're still cutting.

They keep us hopeful, fooled, broke, In debt enough, and needing them enough to get up tomorrow at 3:00 am to do it again. And they know that and it won't change. Been like this for 50 years. Just different company names and different jobber names. And without fail, the highway will be full today of Western Stars, Peterbuilts and Macks. Just as it was yesterday and will be tomorrow. Full of dreams, hope and pride that won't pan out . 50 tons at a time heading south to Esky or Quinnisec. AND THE MILL GETS THEIR WOOD.

Logger RK · March 31, 2016, 07:46:02 AM

I agree with that 100%. It's a Good living if you do it right.

thecfarm · March 31, 2016, 07:46:31 AM

chevytaHOE5674,I like your comment about 8 months. Now if you was cutting for yourself and tried to sell them wood sitting for 8 months..............

I was cutting here with my Father on a real small scale,tractor,3 pt winch. Cutting alot of white pine logs,not cutting much pulp,just the tops. It was starting to turn,probably sitting for more than a month and the trucker had to do some hard talking for them to take it. But IP,at that time,could cut a lot off in June and have it sit there until Oct,that was fine.I saw that just up the road from me.

MattR · March 31, 2016, 09:03:52 AM

Tahoe..........No doubt the pay is influenced by which forester you have. Some seem to actually care about your survival. Others not at all. Even though they work for the same company, some act like it's coming out of their own pocket. I think the fellow on the west end is a bit less caring. I've worked there. I think some actually get off seeing you hurt. Another time they'll pull the "not fronting you money game", is when the are TRYING to PUSH you out. I know this for a fact.

On the flip side, the area we usually take care of the road work for, ( central region , Southern Baraga & Iron counties) that forester is as good as they get. I have worked for him for 20 years myself doing roads, and I know his cutting crews well. Ted Benson and Brian Weir are the main two. Brian told me straight out they are stick scaled, paid 80% and the actual balance when they cross the scale with it. (If it has to sit for a bit because of rain, etc). I see the fresh paint on the piles all the time, as I'm out there daily. And with the amount of overhead and wood Benson pumps out, he CANNOT go without pay.

It's a bummer you had to go through that. I could never have afforded it. I guess that's why you took matters into your own hands and got it done. And I certainly understand your feelings.

MattR · March 31, 2016, 09:25:43 AM

Quote from: RHP Logging on March 30, 2016, 07:37:09 PM
If I'm getting less than 60/cord on the landing im not happy. 70-75/cord is more the norm. Minus 10 bucks for stumpage usually. The pulp mill in kaukauna is paying 115/cord. I'm not is serous pulp country either tho. More sawtimber here and less competition in SE WI.

RHP, where is all wood around Kaukauna? Obviously it's there and I see trucks, but I always wonder? Seems like all farms.

The family and I like coming your way a few times a year for a poor man's vacation. Going to rummage sales and antique stores. In fact we're in Green Bay right now. Gonna leave the motel in a few minutes for Appleton. We stop in Kaukauna and at the Memories Antique Mall right off 41. Then into Appleton. I COLLECT OLD LIONEL TRAINS IF ANYONE HAS ANY.......HINT, HINT. My son bought a 2001 Honda dirt bike from a fellow in Menasha we're going to stop and pay for. There's a train show in GB coming up on the 24th we're coming back for. Will pick up the bike then.

Off for break up and kids are on Easter break, so its a nice ride.