WARNING - ALL ILLINOIS WOODLOT OWNERS- URGENT

[Kirk_Allen]

I attended a Forestry Workshop the other day and and found out some VERY DISTURBING news for Illinois Woodlot owners. 

Our lustorious GOV. has pushed legislation through that requires a tax change for ALL WOODLOTS. 

If you are a Woodlot owner you currently are paying agriculture rate on your taxes.  NO LONGER will that be permitted UNLESS you woodlot is registered in a State Forest Management program. 

I spoke to one farmer whos tax went from $18 on his woodlot to $900   >:(   Woodlots are going to be taxed as Recreational Land if its not under a State Forest Management program.

The real kicker to this is the State is supposed to provide the forester to establish this plan for any woodlot owner that wants one.  THEY CANT DO IT NOW! 

Our Gov. and legislatures passed a LITTLE one line entry into another bill that permitts them to take funds from the DNR Forrestry division and place them in the General Fund "IF NEEDED".

Well of course they are needed in the eyes of the thiefs.  Now the State Foresters dont have the funding to even drive to the areas in there county.  Our District Forester who takes care of 8 counties only gets 3/4 of a tank of gas a week. 

Our 4% Timber Tax that is supposed to support this program has been RAPED by the legislatures. 

If you call to get your woodlot into the program, which you have to do by Dec. 31st to be effecitve for next years tax bill, they will tell you that you have to hire a private Forester to get it done on time because they dont have the funding to come out and do it. 

The Forester is just as MAD about this as the landowners and we are trying to put together a Illinois Forest Association to assist in fighting this fight. 

The local retired Forester is doing management plans for $10 an acre/ $300.00 minimum.  He is swamped right now. 

RIGHT YOUR LEGISLATURES AND DEMAND ANSWERS AS TO WHY OUR FORESTRY DIVISION HAS BEEN RAPED. 

The STATE Forester atttended this meeting as well and said that in some counties people will see as much as $50.00 an acre tax every year. 

[crtreedude]

This is insane!  >:( What I would urge is for you to get the environmental folks on your side on this one. If you are taxed this way, pretty soon cutting all the trees is the only thing that will make economic sense. Let your politicians fight the environmental folk AND the woodlot owners.

I think all you need to do to be a politician is to be an idiot. In NJ once a governor raised the tax on cars - which just about killed the car dealers in NJ - the ones in NY and PA did really well. The government actually LOST tax revenue. Why pay more for a car when you can take a short drive and pay a lot less.

[beenthere]

Kirk
In Wisconsin, they increased the assessment for property tax calculations to $3000 an acre for forest land. If the forest is in the Managed Forest Law (MFL) program, then there is a fixed (low) tax per acre.  It's another way to get 'control' of what we privately own.
In Wisconsin, all the forest land that is in the MFL program, is certified under the American Tree Farm System (ATFS) now.

Your situation sounds like the next level above ours to 'confiscate' or control the private ownership of forests and their use.
Another form of taking, IMO.

CR
I agree its insane.
But I don't think the 'enviros' have any real interest in saving the forests from destruction (conversion to ag land), as that is but an excuse for them to see to it that private landowners should not control their own destiny.  My take on the 'enviro' movement, is they have a socialist mentality and objectives. Some are truly interested in the environment and doing the right thing, but not the majority, IMO.   Even NatureConservancy is in my opinion interested only in removing land from any form of forest management for wood production. And to me, that is a risk for plantations as well. When the powers to be want to control it, they will, as the majority of voters don't own land or forests. Supposedly we have a Constitution that protects from that taking. I'd like to see a swing back in that direction sometime soon.

[crtreedude]

I don't mind the environmental types like Nature Conservancy who BUY the land and then let people hike on it. If it is your land, it is your choice. We however are trying to have our cake and eat it too - build a rainforest that is managed for wildlife, biodiversity and lastly, wood as a way to pay for the other.

There is nothing wrong with harvesting a tree when it is ready - just like there is nothing wrong with harvesting a head of lettuce.  To me, trees are just really big lettuce.

However, monocrops have some problems for the long haul. governments have even more problems. Perhaps the issue is that the people representing us are monocrop lawyers - I think some thinning is in order...  ;D

[Phorester]

"Perhaps the issue is that the people representing us are monocrop lawyers - I think some thinning is in order... "

HAH!  Good one!   Maybe even a clearcut or two in selected places......then regenerate with Foresters......

[crtreedude]

Yeah, sort of weird to have a House of Representives made up of only lawyers and professional politicians - sure is a good representation of the rest of us...  >:(

[SwampDonkey]

In NJ once a governor raised the tax on cars - which just about killed the car dealers in NJ - the ones in NY and PA did really well. The government actually LOST tax revenue. Why pay more for a car when you can take a short drive and pay a lot less.

Hmmm in Canada, if you buy a new car outside your home province you are hit with the tax as soon has it is registered in your home province. You, as the purchaser, have to pay tax on any vehicle bought as soon as it's registered in your name. I know some are getting around this by not registering and not driving with insurance.  :

[SwampDonkey]

Kirk, if the government tried that here, there would be a march on the Legislature. People just don't have that kind of money and it would be seen as a method to confiscate land from the small woodlot owner to sell off to industrial forestry. It's just about to come to blows here over the right to 'primary source of supply' from private woodlots. The province is shipping out 300,000 m^3 and complaining about wood shortages, industry are refusing private wood and using crown wood with below market value, rural jobs are being lost.

[Frank_Pender]

Kirk, I see this as a taking as well and a possible epidemic among govenors and legislators.   Oregon, recently, passed a new set of guidelines that tell us that any timber land less than nine acres is not a respectable amount of land to manage timber.   So, they have been able to take the smaller parcels and tax them at the full advolum rate.  DanG bunch of Communists. >:( :'(

  Like was mentioned earlier about some thinning or clearcutting is a good idea in some of our local legislative bodies. 8) 8) 8)

[crtreedude]

Perhaps just pruning would work - just remove the limb that writes and signs the new laws...

[IL Bull]

Our governer Rod thinks Illinois is a suberb of Chicago.
He doesn't even stay in the mansion in Springfield but he keeps it fully staffed.

[Kirk_Allen]

Dont even get me started on the residence issue in the Mansion.   One of our neighbors growing up is the Mansion Manager and lets just say she is on the edge of quiting her job and going public over the waste this man is guilty of.

Empty Gov. Residence.
Full time Chef who HAS to be there EVERY DAY of the week.
Full time kitchen staff to support the Chef
Full time 24/7 State Police detail - for an empty Mansion
Full time made service
Full time Butlers (2)

This guy needs to be removed from office.  The things he does are bordering criminal IMHO >:(

[Corley5]

I fully understand waste in state govt as I've been a state employee for sometime but probably not for much longer.  My position is being cut for the next two years due to lack of funding but there is money for a multi million dollar pocket park in Detroit >:( >:( :  You can tell where the most votes come from :(  To get around the lack of state foresters look into the NRCS.  They have forest management programs too

[crtreedude]

Kirk,

Don't forget the power of the press. Reporters are always looking for a story. This sounds like a good one.

[Kirk_Allen]

Once I have all my ducks in a row I plan on speaking with a local reporter.  Sad part of that is I also have to research the stinking reporters to ensure the story is presented in a fasion that will help the land owners and not twisted to support the Gov.

[crtreedude]

Yes - that is true. So much for fair and balanced, eh?

[CHARLIE]

Property tax is so bogus anyway. The politicians can claim they reduce your property tax and then let the tax assessor reevaluate your property so you pay more in property tax than before they reduced it.  Confusing.......

[Kirk_Allen]

Well I have to say things in Illinois are worse than people realize.  A few years ago our OTHER cooked Gov. repealed the gas tax becuase they had a surplus from the high gas prices.

This Gov has done nothing, thus we have a HUGE surplus from gas tax.  The point?

I have been trying everyday to get a hold of our Forester and Friday was told he wont be back until Monday.  Now I was told to call around 8 in the morning each day this week and I should catch him. After expressing my concern for not being able to reach him the truth came out. 

He wont be in until Monday because that is when he gets his weekly fuel allocation.  He gets 3/4 of a tank a week.  The Gov has stipped there budget so bad that they are operating on shoe strings. 

Charlie I hear you on the tax issue.  When they promoted the state lottery they said a percentage was going to go directly to the eduction fund.  The lottery passed, a portion of the revenues goes directly to the educational fund and..................................they terminated the normal education funding because they now get that money from the lottery.  So much for the lottery HELPING in our state education.

Parents, ITS YOUR JOB TO EDUCATE YOUR CHILDREN. RAISE THEM UP IN THE LORD! 

OK, Im done ranting.

[crtreedude]

Kirk,

My family had a rule when we were in Missouri. Never do anything because the government would support you. For example, we didn't raise wheat, etc. because it was subsidized. We grew vegetables because the market was in control.

The problem with anything the government does is that you can be ruined because another group takes over and changes the rules.

As far as education, back East, they were paying about 8,000 USD per child per year for education - and not getting much for it. I figured at that level, you could have class rooms of the size of 20, and have two teachers paid at 60,000 each - and 40,000 USD left to pay for classroom materials (or perhaps the mortgage on a house so the kids could be educated in their neighborhood) 8,000 per child is a huge number. If anyone wants to explain this number to me, I will be all ears.

Our daughter was homeschooled most of the time - didn't seem to hurt her. She is finishing up a Phd in Bio-Physics. She did spend the last few years in High School just to make sure the colleges would want her.

[Frank_Pender]

Tye ten grand here in the Peoples Republic of Oregon and I was part of the system for 30 years with no help in the classroom and 35 kids.


Woops, getting really away from the main issue.  Sorry Kirk.  It just goes to show this kind of problem is widespread across all government involved areas.

[Kirk_Allen]

No apology need Frank.  My Great Grandfather was the Dean of Westfield College just south of me, My grandfather on my moms side was a Dental Prof. at Northwestern and retired at 86 yrs old, my Grandmother on my Dads side was a school teacher in the two room school house for 40 years, My dad is a retired Teacher, My broher is a High School teacher, and .......................................I teach fire departments :D

I Know all to well what our teachers face today.  It sucks.

My Dad retired after 34 years because of one incident that broke the straw.  He had a student come to class with one of those long spike starched hair doos with all different colors of hair.  When he came into class acting all cocky my Dad told him that his Hair realy looks stupid. 

The kid went home and told his parents that my Dad said HE WAS STUPID.  Parents filed a complaint, the principal came down to his class and asked him WHY he said that.  He didnt even have the decensy to ask if it was true or not.  He just took the parents side.  Before my dad could even explain the situation he was told he is going to have to provide a formal apology to the kid and his parents .  My dad told him to take the job and shove it.  That was the last day in the classroom for one of the best teachers that school had ever seen.

To this day I meet folks who had my Dad as a teacher and eveyone talks about how great he was.  What is so unique with that is the other teachers in my family.  Just last week I met a 80 year old man at the hardware store and after a breif conversation the subject of people impacting there lives came up and this guy mentions the old dean from the westfiedl college.

He said: "This was before you time son and since the school burned to the ground many years ago you may not even know there was a college in that little town of westfield but the dean of that school, Silven was his first name, dont remember his last name, Im getting old, well any way he that man sat me down one day and set me straight on a few things and it was the best thing anyone has ever done for me."

Can we say goose bumps.  When I told him it that Silvin Dawson was my Great Grandfather he said, yeh, Dawson, that was his last name!  We ended up talking for over an hour standing in the middle of the hardware store. 

Teachers Good Teachers have a huge impact on our society and all too often they are taken advantage of by the system. 

Many more tails to tell about teachers but I think we can all agree, the system is broke, even though its the best system in the world. 

[Frank_Pender]

You got it, Kirk.  Juste yesterday I met with a couple that are "My Kids".   There is a very good possibility I will be leasing them a building so that he can have a home for his thriving electircal business.   He, his wife and three little critters troured the building later yesterday and they all enjoyed the site.   I told him I could likely give him the first months rent free for the minor maintainence work.   8) 8)

   "MY KIds" know there are some fringe benefits, even after the seventh grade. ;D

[crtreedude]

Kirk,

I would agree with you with everything you said - except about it being the best. Perhaps we should stop thinking of ourselves in such glowing terms and we might actually do something to fix it. It is the teams that think they are the best who get whipped. I would tend to agree that the USA is one of the greatest countries in the world, if not the greatest, but the education system is not. Just look at the test scores. (I am not sure you meant to say it was, if so, pardon my lack of comprehension.)

I think the point to the thread could well be how those in power forget the important things. School educators forget the most important thing is educating the kids... not making them feel good about themselves.

I am not trying to be negative about the USA, but I just came from a trip of not seeing it for 15 months. My friends, what I saw through third world eyes isn't pretty. I saw people who had so much more than the people I am around everyday complaining because they didn't have the latest gadget.

One of the things I am seeing more and more is the apathy in politics. No one assumes there is anything that can be done. It isn't true. Just a couple of things come to mind.

1. The most powerful union there is is the teachers union. Imagine if they met with the idea of figuring out how to fix the public school system - instead of better wages, etc.

2. I think the small property owner would make a very good PAC - it would be huge. Imagine if the private property owners banding together like senior citizens do. I think you would have some pretty scared politicians.

[Kirk_Allen]

crtreedude,
The system I am referring to is our system of Government.  We have the power to make change, although that can sometimes seem impossible.

I don't think its the educators that forgot what is important.  Its the administrations of those educators.  Its those administrators that stopped all score keeping at ball games, as all the kids are winners and there should never be a loser.............WRONG! 

"I am not trying to be negative about the USA, but I just came from a trip of not seeing it for 15 months. My friends, what I saw through third world eyes isn't pretty. I saw people who had so much more than the people I am around everyday complaining because they didn't have the latest gadget."

Having been in MANY third world countries for months at a time I have to say, what I saw wasn't pretty.  I saw people who had so much potential who simply complained because no one was helping them or that others had more than they did. 

crtreedude, familiarity breeds contempt.  I don't know the system you have down there but if I understand most of what I read you are able to capitalize on quite a bit down there and that is probably because of what you have learned here in the US and its system. 

The very things or groups here in the US that could make change are no different than in other countries.  It takes a person with Vision and willingness to stick there neck out and take a chance.  The very system we have in the US teaches that like no other country.  Name one other country that more folks from all over the world are trying to get to than the US. 

Sure we have our downsides or pitfalls but to think for a minute we are not the best would bing on a mindset to settle for less, which seems to be what I saw in most third world countries.  I know that some times taking the position of "being the best" is done with arrogance and it is the arrogance that has to be changed or corrected, not the striving to be the best and stay the best.

[Ron Wenrich]

Governments have used taxation as a way of getting the masses to do what it wants for eons.  Having a reduced tax rate for managed lands isn't new in many states.  

In PA, we have the Clean and Green statutes.  That's where they give you a reduced rate if you promise not to develop your land.  No management needed.  But, those lands can be put into development if the back taxes are paid.  

Property tax has been proven to be the most reliable funding source.  The problem is that everyone figures the other guy should be paying it.  Some guys can weasel out of it, some can't.  The loopholes have been put there by those with money.  Money is what moves government, not logic.

PA is trying to get meaningful property tax reform.  One outfit wants to ban all property tax and put a 6% sales tax on everything except medical expenses.  This includes all services.  The only problem is that it will fall about $5 billion short.

You can rant and rave to your reps all you want, but if there ain't a check in your hand, they won't listen.  Look at the PACs in your state.  Our legislators have to disclose who gives them money.  The PACs have to disclose who they give to and who gives to them.  Some really disgusting numbers when you dig through it.  Utilities, insurance companies, and attorneys seem to be the biggest greasers.  

You think you can change the system?  The last time it was changed was in the '60s and that was by going to the streets and demonstrating.  Sometimes a lot worse.  It was the only time that the government has paid any attention to anyone.  99% of all incumbents get re-elected.

[crtreedude]

Hi Kirk,

I suspect we would agree with most things. The people down here work and don't expect a hand out - Costa Rica is much different than most if not all the other Latin American countries. I know what some of the others are like.

The government in the USA is broken when less than a majority will even vote. Then of course complain about the state of things. 

Yes, I would agree that a lot of my success is due to things I learned up North. Trust me, I am not knocking it. What concerns me is the errosion of the very values and attitudes that DID shape me.  Did you know according to a poll I read that more than 50% of the people now believe you get rich by winning the lottery?

I think we don't have to think we are the best, but we should seek to be the best. When I have what I want, I tend to stop working so hard. ;-) Back before WWII, we didn't think we were the best, but we did show the world what we were made of. I sure would like to go back to walking softly but carrying a big stick. Arrogance of course is the issue.

The Costa Ricans don't want to go to the USA for a better life - they want to go there for the money. After they make a wad and save it, they move back here. This is the truth. This is probably going to be hard to take but I have been told over and over (very nicely by the way) by Ticos that they don't feel the USA is free. They felt very stifled there compared to living here. There are so many laws in the USA and they sure didn't appreciate being pulled over and treated like criminals because they were Latino. These were people who were perfectly legal in the country too.

This is not to say Costa Rica is better than the USA, it is just different. Trust me, there are things here that everyone would like to change.

By the way, when the Costa Ricans don't like something, they shutdown the government. Believe me, the government of Costa Rica knows who is in charge - it is the people. It seems to me that we forget that in the USA. If we don't like the way things are, it is our fault. The government is supposed to be "For the people and by the people" - if we let the politicians take over, we did let them.

I definitely don't have contempt for the USA and what hit me hard was being away for 15 months and coming back, it was looking without familiarity that did it.

Not trying to cause a ruckess or anything, but believe me, those who are slowly removing your rights would love for you to think everything is still okay and that things are still great in the good ole USA. Perhaps they are, but the trend doesn't look good from here. Even if the USA is one of the greatest nations in the world, I am not sure it is as great as it once was - which I think is more to the point.

[Norwiscutter]

I grow skeptical of the value of voting the more I think about it.  I believe that it is a misconception to imply that a nation or entity would be any better off with a higher voter turnout.  I think that modern technology has caused a rapid acceleration in "Group Think" amoungst the masses.  I would argue that most people have a lesser comprehension of today's issues than ever before.  Most people attach themselves to a group or candidate that has an ideology that they think best reflects their own opinions and perceptions.  People do this because of convienience and lazyness. It is easier to let someone elso that they "trust" to essentially make the decision for them rather than actually spend the time to learn about an issue. Common statements I have heard such as " I am a Democrate because I support the environment" or I am a republican because I suport the war" imply to me an unwillingness or inability to rationally think a problem through and reflect on it's consequences.  Add in the instant gratification of the Internet Era and you get people that expect more and want to do less. As technology increases, the lazy will get lazier and the smart will get smarter. 
As far as education is concerned, the student's willingness and motivation to learn is the determining factor in how much a person learns.  Building new schools or hiring new teachers is simply throwing money at something without even understanding what the problem is.  I have friends that are teaching Afgan's to operate complex radio equipment and conduct combat manuvers without the aid of classrooms of the internet. Yet they figure it out right quick! Why? Lots of motivation.

In the end though, our only real hope lies in our faith.

[crtreedude]

You know what was one of the biggest shocks when I moved here? Having to deal with people who wanted to learn so bad and have an opportunity that they would tell you they knew how to do something when they had no clue. They figured they would learn on the job if need be.

In more than 20 years in the computer field I was used to too many, when you asked them to do something new, saying, "When do I get sent to class for training?" as though they couldn't learn anything without a teacher. I was giving them the time to learn, but they wanted someone to spoon feed them.

One of the most enjoyable things about living here is the hunger people have for learning. For example, we have another housekeeper now - our first is studying to be a chef - and the new housekeeper was showing interesting in learning English so my wife asked her if she would like to learn from her?

The lady (who is about 40) broke down in tears for about 5 minutes and couldn't speak. Amy was very concerned that perhaps she said something wrong (we do that in Spanish at times) and kept asking what was wrong, and what did she say. Eventually the lady responded that this was a life long dream of hers - to learn English and she couldn't believe it was happening.

This is the competition that the USA is facing - people who are hungry to learn and eager for a better life. I humbly suggest the USA had better not act like it has life by the tail or it is going to be in a heap of trouble. If you didn't know it, Intel makes the Pentium IV here, and it isn't just because wages are cheaper. I just hired a junior programmer - to say I am impressed at his knowledge and skill is an understatement. I hired him about a month ago but he is finishing up his school work. He wanted to build something BEFORE he started to prove to me (he already had the job) that he was a hard worker, and didn't want me to pay him. Oh, and his starting salary is 12,000 USD a year, which includes benefits. That is about double the average wage here by the way. He went to college for 5 years for his degree - I was hiring people in the USA with one year from a technical school. Nothing wrong with that if they can do the work, it is just the requirement here is much, much higher.  His English is not very good - worse than my Spanish - but he is planing on taking more courses in English plus of course will have practice talking with us.

As far as a higher voting percentage - here it is about 70% - it isn't so much that they feel that it makes that much difference - it is just that they value the RIGHT to have a say. I think there is actually a fine associated with not voting - it is considered your civic duty. By the way, it does make a big difference here - the goverment changes it's focus pretty frequently.

If people don't vote, there is no democracy. Modern technology allows people to be educated if they chose - the problem is what we chose to educate ourselves with. I know a lot of people who know every primetime TV show, but have no idea who is their representation in government, or how they vote. I guess you focus on what you value. I am afraid for the USA, the focus has changed from building a great nation to enjoying a great nation.

My whole point is not to say that Costa Rica is better than the USA - in many, many ways, it isn't. Just to point out what the USA is facing in the future. The USA has a great lead over many countries in the world - but it won't keep it if it thinks that it has it made in the shade.

Regarding our hope is our faith - believe me, the Costa Ricans believe that too. They rely on God all the time, and aren't ashamed - and they don't have separation of church and state either. The official church is Catholic - but they don't take that too seriously. The once deported the Catholic Bishop for 10 years and didn't allow a replacement for interfering in their politics!

You see signs of this everywhere - on the back of public buses they ask for God to go with them - of course, given the roads at times and the other drivers, they are sincere. ;) The one I liked the best was one that said "Only God knows if I will pass this way again!" I thought it was pretty funny since it is a regularly scheduled run...

Kirk, I was meaning to comment on your experiences when in Latin American countries. There is something here which we call the "Pobrecito" syndrome - pobrecito means "poor little me". As soon as a person with blue eyes shows up, all the lazy people try to get money from them.  They have their share of deadbeats here too. They realize that your average Gringo has no idea on the prices for anything so they will charge twice the going rate. After about 6 months to a year you weed through them and they head to the next sucker. Thankfully we have a Costa Rican business partner. He was a poor farm worker once who only had his machete and shoes - and not much else. It is pretty hard to give him a hard luck story. He is very generous to those truly in need - after they have gone through an interrigation!

Anyway, just to emphasis, I think that the USA is still a great country, much more so than Costa Rica. But, I don't think we are doing well preparing for the future where a lot of these countries with much less cost of living are competing for our jobs. Just think, we don't need heating and cooling here - and I can build an acceptable home here for 10,000 USD.

just my dos colones - which is worth about 2/5 th of a penny if you are curious.  :D

[Ron Wenrich]

When I was in college, I complained that they didn't teach us how to do anything.  We were just given the basics on how to cruise, and a lot on how the forest develops and works. 

The answer was that they taught us why, and figured we were smart enough to figure out how.  That seemed like a lame answer, and one that I didn't like that much.  I felt that the profs had let me down. 

As I started working in the field, I found that the prof was right.  They taught me why something worked, I had to figure out how to measure it and analyze the data.  I've been able to think my way through a lot of the processes before I had to do the work.  Its worked well for me.

As for elections, I hate to go to the voting booth and look at the choices.  I always ask myself if this is the best we can do.  We only have 2 choices - Republican or Democrat.  If you think the 3rd parties have any impact, you would be wrong. 

Who chose those candidates?  A bunch of guys in a backroom where they dish favors back and forth.  In most areas, one party runs the local government.  So where's the choice?

[farmerdoug]

One of the things that bother me most about voting is the straight ticket vote.  Nothing like making it easy for the voters, huh. ;)
I always vote for each individual race even though sometimes I may end up voting all of one ticket anyways.  But I rarely do that and split my ticket for the candidates I like best.  Even thought I may not be fully informed on all of them, I try to follow them.  It would be a full time job to know it all and then one would take a bride and you would be back to square one anyways. :D

Farmerdoug

[Buzz-sawyer]

Fred
I have read most every post you have made on this forum........

And one thing stands out to me in your constant reminders that America is TOO high and mighty, and ready for a fall, and too big for her britches etc.........

When called to task , without exception you will reverse motors and say,"Trust me, I am not knocking it"
And that seems quite ambivalent.


My point being, that without exception your re -occurring theme about the surpassing greatness of Costa Rica is the CHEAP LABOR..............

and that you can hire someone to live in a primitive hut on your estate, and work for next to nothing, or hire a worker to do all your honey doos for 2 dollars an hour.

However the next sentence may say,  how terrible it is that these poor peasants have nothing....and yet are happier, better off and generally better that the seemingly greedy capitalist up in the U.S. ...........I don't understand this position.

Would you consider doing something like giving your wealth to these poor folks??

Perhaps start a commune on your farm and share that wealth??

...or pay them 10 dollars and hour to do your work around the house instead of 2???
Certainly it improve the standard of living for the locals.....
You seem quite a dichotomy of opinion in this regard......

[SwampDonkey]

I have noticed that this thread went to the 'dog house' for awhile, then reappeared.  ;) The thread sure has become a little touchy, I'll say that. :D

[Jeff]

It never went to the "doghouse"  Tom moved it to conferencing late last night for our consideration. I moved it back this morning.  With that said, the thread will stay as long as its bounds remain within the spirit of the Forestry Forum.  Remember, this forum's boundries are not those of a country or nationality, or individual philosophies or viewpoints. I am sure I really don't need to tell the members here what those boundries are.

[Kirk_Allen]

"One of the most enjoyable things about living here is the hunger people have for learning. For example, we have another housekeeper now - our first is studying to be a chef - and the new housekeeper was showing interesting in learning English so my wife asked her if she would like to learn from her?

The lady (who is about 40) broke down in tears for about 5 minutes and couldn't speak. Amy was very concerned that perhaps she said something wrong (we do that in Spanish at times) and kept asking what was wrong, and what did she say. Eventually the lady responded that this was a life long dream of hers - to learn English and she couldn't believe it was happening."

Fred, I believe that the situation you descibed can be found in ANY country and more so in large countries than thirdworld countries.  I cant tell you how many times folks had tears in there eyes becuase someone was willing to offer a hand up, not a hand out, whether it be in CR or the US.  There are plenty of folks willing to learn and progress. 

The problems and challenges each country has are not unique to that country as most every situation can be found around the world. I say that with total confidence as I have been to most countries around the world and not jsut for a gas and go.  I have spent months in many thirdworld countries. Good folks willing to do the right thing! That is what this world needs in my opinion, which may not mean squat but its still mine  ;D 

If you feel that things are so bad or degressing in the US then wouulnt it be a good thing if you helped bring correction to those things for the better?  This thread started over a tax issue on woodlot owners.  I chose to make everyone aware of the situation and am trying to do something about it. That is the American way!.  Some folks would say its an impossible battle.  Well, those are the folks I dont have much to do with as I have a Can-DO attitude and I am making change for the better, although small in comparison of the other problems we face but regardless, I am doing something.  For those that are not willing to do something for the country THEY LIVE IN, then I suggest they either not complain about that country or make sure you doing something to improve it.  Otherwise, MOVE! 

With that said, we are working towards a meeting next week, time permitting to inform our township woodlot owners of what is going on.  I am getting about a call a day on the issue and looks like we may have realy got a grassroots group upset enough that just maybe they will be heard and force some change. 

[crtreedude]

Actually Kirk, you have my respect because you ARE doing something. And so am I. I do hire a lot of people here, and it is better to give ten people a job at 1 dollar, than give one person 10 dollars and let the others not have work. I was very involved when I was in the USA too. I still am in areas as well.

Yes, I know the world over people are seeking for a better life. My concern, especially having just returned to the USA, is complacency that I see. I was in the business of hiring people there and here. There is a big difference.

Perhaps I point out the response here because people do respond and are not complacent. You would have people in the streets for a stunt like they are trying to pull on you guys.  I hope you do the same.

My point about the cheap labor is simple. If the USA isn't better in what they produce because of better education, etc. they sure aren't going to win on cost.  When someone can do the same job for much less - the jobs leave.  This is simple economics.

Yes, I love living in Costa Rica but I also loved being in the USA. They are very different. The USA is the most powerful nation in the world, both militarily as well as probably economically. I would like that to remain true - I especially would not like to see China catch up with us. Costa Rica is no threat - but China is.

If I get out of line Jeff - let me know. I love a free-flowing dialog and actually like when people don't agree, as long as we can stay agreeable. Free-flowing debate means we all learn something, as long as we are listening.

[SwampDonkey]

Who knows Kirk, you might be the founder of a state wide, unified woodlot owners' association. It happened here over 25 years ago. To all the nay sayers, I'll just say this that it has survived alot longer than most businesses. Our local association is about to move into a new office, has an expanded wood yard, new loader and slasher on the yard. All this is to help the little guy market and better utilize the wood resource, to educate ourselves, and to take advantage of situations where going it alone wouldn't be feasible. I own as much a part of that operation as the next woodlot owner. 

[Kirk_Allen]

My point about the cheap labor is simple. If the USA isn't better in what they produce because of better education, etc. they sure aren't going to win on cost.  When someone can do the same job for much less - the jobs leave.  This is simple economics.

Fred, PLEASE tell me you dont realy believe that jobs are leaving the US because of education, or lack of in the US.  IF that is your position then you have been hoodwinked bigtime.

We have competitors in our fire business that have shipped off most everything to third wold countries.  Those folks are doing nothing but paying lower wages for the SAME product they made in the US. Less manufactureing cost means more money for the US business owner and it has NOTHING to do with the peoples education level that are making those products. 

I could ship our product manfucaturing to China and it would reduce my costs by 70%.  That would mean it would put 70% more money in MY POCKET.  BUSINESS EDUCATION says that is the smart thing to do.  I WONT DO IT.  If I did, I would have familys that would no longer have a job.  I would be taking money out of our local econemy and worst of all, I would be helping another country to establish itsefl as competition to the very country I live in. 

The difference you see in hiring people is the number of people.  You have to put things in perspective.  Your going to see more things you dont like in a country that has more people.  Its simple math.  I am confident that if you do a proper analysis based on population you will find that its very common for all countries to have a similar percentage of their population that is less than desireable. 

[ronwood]

Kirk,

How good is the quality of the competitors product built overseas? It seems to me that quality suffers.

Ron

[Kirk_Allen]

In what I have seen the quality is much better ;)  Wouldnt want anyone to think otherwise.

[beenthere]

Kirk
I looked into the possibility of Illinois having a Woodland Owners Association, and apparently, as surmised, they don't.
(Even Iowa does, as well as the surrounding states).
Just in case there may be some help or ideas from the National Woodlands Owners Association, here is the URL

NWOA

[Kirk_Allen]

Thanks for the link.  I will definatly look into it.  We are working on forming some kind of association and this should provide some great info.  Thanks again.

[DragonsBane]

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Objrct envinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Can anyone tell me where this came from?

[Cedarman]

In Indiana, we have the Indiana Forest and Woodland Owners Association.
We are only 850 members. But we helped get the right to practice forestry law passed which makes it illegal for communities to pass laws that interfer with logging and timber management.  This is in response to a county that passed an ordinance that required permits to cut any trees.
We also have the classified forest act.  If you enroll your land in the program, you have the property valued at $1.00 per acre for tax purposes. Of course you must have a management plan, but our district foresters will help you with that for free.  In return we have better timber growing, more of it, so the government makes its money back in increased jobs and more sales of wood products.

We also have a PAC committee that gives money to selected candidates.  This helps us get their ear when we need help with laws passed or squashed.  It doesn't mean they will vote our way, but it does give us access to them.  Also it helps us that they know there is a constituency out there that can help them or hurt them get elected.  We don't favor one party over another.

IFWOA was started many years ago to give landowners a voice.
I highly recommend getting one for Illinois.  You have some beautiful timber in your state.  The Garden of the Gods area is magnificent.

If the state of Illinois wishes to keep their woodland, they are doing the opposite of what is needed.  If I had a 40 acre patch of woodland that was expensive to own, I would clear it for agriculture or divide it for subdivisions.

You might contact Liz Jackson at 765 583 3501.  She is our executive director.

I wish you well in this endeavor.

Cedarman

[Goose79]

This is nothing new in my area.  They have been over taxing ground in Madison County for years.  I know several people that have bottom ground that is being taxed as residential. 

Most of everyone I know in Madison County has got into the Illinois Forest Development Act Program so they could get the tax break.  The program for the most part is easy going, just do a small amount of management and you get the tax break.

The DNR is a joke right now, one forester that I know has to cover six counties, they let the techs go, and he lost his secretary this year.  He told me that his waiting list is at least a year before he can get out to meet the landowners.

I will have to tell the private foresters down here that someone has a $300 minimum, I think most of them just charge by the acre with around $125-150 minimum, don't quote me on that figure.


Goose79

[Buzz-sawyer]

Hey goose.

we are neighbors.......give me a shout and we could get together! 8) 8)

[SwampDonkey]

Goose that $300 isn't out of line considering all the work that has to go into it. A $150 wouldn't get me out of my chair. ;) I don't think management plans should be done free by government foresters. There should be a cost to the owner. It can be written off in taxes as a management expense anyway. Generally, if you work 10 acres of your ground following the plan the cost becomes insignificant. On the other hand if you have a woodlot owner association and everyone contributes some way to a management fund then those dollars can be used to help develop plans. Our marketing board pays a bonus per acre for following the plan, so the owner usually comes ahead. Some mills will even contribute to that fund by making an annual donation. You just have to approach them with the right angle. For example, if you set up some criteria to harvest wood in a sound way and promise to move the harvested volume to their mill you will be well received. ;) One mill here used to contribute $100,000 a year for plans and harvest bonuses following set criteria before it went bankrupt. Paying those contributions didn't cause them to go bankrupt. That mill was bought by another concern and will be resuming operations by the new year.  Now there are a few owners that use those cruises in the plan as a liquidation sale, sad but true. And I can just hear some logger convincing the owner to do just that. The ones that don't, they usually have their own equipment to work their ground. And when your walking over their ground you can tell by it's history if they care to manage timber or are looking for short term gains. I don't discriminate in any way when I do plans, but I can always tell their motives no matter what they tell me to write for their objectives. ;)

[Goose79]

I am sure that it does take some work to put a plan together.  I think the state pays the landowner $7.00 an acre to have a plan written, not sure on this so don't quote me. 

It seems like most of the timber ownership around here is limited to 20-40 acres.  I am sure there are some bigger tracts, but for the most part it is just small groups.  In my area farming is more important to lanowners than timber.

Goose

[SwampDonkey]

Timber is part of farming here. ;) Kinda hard to grow potatoes in frozen ground, so when the spuds aren't moving to market, off to the woods we go. Historically, if you shipped potatoes, the market was pretty must slack before Christmas and sometimes into February.

With regards to your rate/acre: Another formula could be so much for the writing and so much for the acreage. For example $350 for writeup and $4/acre for wooded ground. The government pays the owner? I would think the government would pay the compiler and do a review of a percentage of the plans written. Where's the checks and balances? Sometimes the compiler can be the owner to. Our government does give $100 per property ID number, but to the woodlot association to administer the silviculture program.

I would say my average would be between 50 and 75 acres. Most large tracts I've done plans on, 200 plus acres, have been liquidated and they are looking for ways to 'fix' it as a suggestion of the logger that recently flattened it. Then after you explain to the owner that there are incentive bonuses if the plan is followed, some logger comes along and says I never got no bonuses for cutting wood. So then the owner figures he's been duked. Well....why would you be looking for a bonus for clearcutting the woods?  sheesh : Besides,if there is thinning to do, it's usually free and if there is tree planting the cost is usually about 20% of the total (which is subsidized by government). Yes, it's a subsidy, but the owner and the logger paid tax on that wood that amounts to alot more than the subsidy recieved to put trees back or space new ones. ;D

[Goose79]

The state program here is a reimbursement program, the landowner pays the forester or who ever for writing the management plan, and the state has set dollar figures (cost-share) that they will pay to the landowner to help cover some of the cost.  It is 75% cost-share with a maximum of $7.00 an acre for a management plan.

The landowner has to apply to get this money before the plan is written, so he could wait a long time and still never get any help in the from of cost-share.  This money is suppose to come from a 4% tax on timber harvests, but as Kirk stated the state government has basically stolen this money.   

Goose

[SwampDonkey]

This money is suppose to come from a 4% tax on timber harvests, but as Kirk stated the state government has basically stolen this money.   

Is the 4% above and beyond the income tax? And is the timber tax set up as a forest management fund?

[Ron Wenrich]

Checks and balances?  You've got to be kidding.  I have tried to establish both a landowner's association in one of the counties, and tried a co-op.  The co-op was submarined by the consultants.  They provide all the services, and there is no need for landowners to actually get involved with the marketing of forest products, or so the arguement goes.  As for the association, it was hard to get much support from anyone but a few retired guys who wanted to putter around their woodlots. 

Our state has pretty well stepped away from the private sector.  Its been handed over to consultants and loggers.  SFI has gone the route to "managing" forests through a stewardship program that has no checks or balances.  Same goes for consultants.  We have no licensing, and no one to check up on them.  Not all are good ones. 

I like the idea of a co-op, but the problem we have is the short tenure of land ownership.  A guy buys land one year, and sells it just a few years later. 

We do have a state forestry association, but it has fallen on hard times due to lack of support from either the industry, landowners or the government.  They offer a lot of information on forestry, but very little on the ground support. 

[Goose79]

This money is suppose to come from a 4% tax on timber harvests, but as Kirk stated the state government has basically stolen this money.   

Is the 4% above and beyond the income tax? And is the timber tax set up as a forest management fund?

Yes, when there is a timber harvest in the state of Illinois, there is a 4% tax, this money goes into a management fund, and the landowner still has to pay the income tax on the sale.

The state forestry program is set up as a public act, so they just passed legislation allowing them access to this money for other uses.  I think this past year they took around $900,000 from the fund, but don't quote me on the exact amount.

As far as checks and balances go, this is not much, but when cost-share is approved and the practice is completed the district foresters are responsible for inspecting the work.  The same goes for management plans, the consultant can write a plan, but the district forester still must approve it.  Does this mean that the district forester goes out to the site of each and every managment plan written, no, but at least it is being reviewed and he can question the consultant.

Ron, land ownership changes often in my area, but heck, when they are paying $8,000 an acre for timber ground, why not sell.

Goose

[SwampDonkey]

By checks and balances I mean we have the Association staff who review management plans before the landowner receives it. In our silviculture program both the Association staff (100 %) and Government (20 %) monitors each treatment. We treat about 2500 ha (6175 acres) of thinning and tree planting, which is about 10 % of the provincial budget. There are 6 other Regions and we are all looked after by the Federation of Woodlot Owners who are a small staff where funding is based on owners and acres of forest. One of the most disturbing thing I found is that the majority of management plans are never followed, so no subsidy would be issued. There are two skidders up the road working on 10 acres of hardwood that will only be flattened. In most cases when the landowner is presented with cash from the logger, the plan gets shelfed. Some loggers are foresters and forest technicians, most aren't but they are usually professional loggers trying to make a living.
We needed a Marketing Board and an Association desparately here because the industry treated the private landowners as prostitutes and private wood was competing with cheaper crown wood.  When the boards first formed the prices increased. Regions that were not close to the market in the US got the least for thier wood.  Excluding freehold (industry forestry), the most frequent exchange of private land with woodlots we have is under farm sales (including amalgamations) or inheritance (the family farm gets subdivided among siblings). 

Ron you've run into the same problem as most Woodlot Associations, there are many woodlot owners but few participants. I'm sure there are parts of PA as in VA, that people hardly ever cut wood or sell stumpage. Around Blacksburgh and Christiansburgh all I seen was heat pumps, no wood processing facilites (sawmills/pulp). We have about 35,000 woodlot owners in NB, but only about 10 % rely on the forest for there sole income, or a significant portion there of. You need to get a good number of people who work their ground for a living in order to organize an Association that will be beneficial. If you work your ground for a living your going to talk alot louder than the weekend logger. Our Board of directors are usually the same old group that were around 25 years ago. If we didn't have food and prizes at the annual meetings there would be few show up. I know one guy on the board that probably owns 800 acres of woods, his father used to cut wood, but he hardly cuts enough to keep warm. Most of the harvesting was done by logging contractors,since he's owned it. I had a 23 year old photo of one portion of his woods where his father used to cut wood in the 60-70's and it showed all his father's trails. The photo was taken in '82 and those old trails still showed up, no new ones. :D His main problem is that he's a lazy old fart. :D The wife made him go to the woods this fall to pay for farm bills they still owe since he gave up farming, and she's on teacher's pension. It's pretty pathetic. His son was so fed up he went to Vancouver Island to work for a farmer. Shrug

[Tom]

In defense, I guess, this industry seems to think of landowners of small tree farms as itinerant, superficial obstacles.

There really are many land owners who care.   Some will take the bull by the horns and learn forestry themselves.  They can "get it done" but not efficiently because they don't have the backing or knowledge of the industry.

Some don't know what to do and are so involved n making a living elsewhere that their tree farm takes a back seat.

When one thinks of the tree farming population and its involvement in the "society", one should also think of a hierarchy of management.  While there have been many efforts at getting everyone together to walk the same path, most of these "organizations" fall to the wayside because of lack of interest due to the eventual ignoring of the one person who is responsible for making it happen, the land owner.

When the State and County here wanted to make a good showing in the Agricultural field, you would see all kinds of "help" offered.  There would be meetings, classes, education on trees, insects, farm ponds, fire.....  you name it.

When the Urban citizens complain about smoke, burning woods, harvesting, log trucks, Arborists, loggers, mono-cultures and all those "environmentalist" terms, the people in the know back off.  The State Foresters disappear, The county Foresters disappear, money for the creation of Tree-Growing occupations disappears.

The classes that interested tree farmers once attended down the road, for free or for the price of a meal now cost 300 or 500 dollars and are held in some big hotel 200 miles away. (close to an institute of higher learning usually-God forbid that a professor had to travel)

Does the "industry" think I'm going to stop what I'm doing for 3 days or more, pay $500 to be away from my money-making business to listen to some school teacher ramble about the Lignin in Pine?  I don't think so.

What is the goal?   From the land-owners perspective, it is survival.  From the Industries perspective it should be "supply".   Now what follows is pure opinion.

If the State, County, pulp-mill or sawmill wants to involve the land-owner in education, to benefit the State, County or pulp industry, then the education should be offered at no more than cost and favorably, for free.  Let the organizations that need the land-owner provide the service.

I don't think you can treat land-owners like chattel with good results.  If the industry organizes the land-owners into a viable entity, it can't just stop and expect the organization to obediently run itself.  It will disband.  Goals will change and members will go their own way.

Contrary to popular belief, land-owners aren't chomping at the bit to enter Universities and spend educational loans on growing trees.   The society, if you can call it that, is more like a Little League organization with a town full of boys wanting to play baseball.  Either you keep them busy and constantly educated or they play sand-lot by their own rules or quit playing all together.

There is a place for  tax paid Foresters offering education and services for "free" to land-owners, especially small land-owners.  It just depends on who's goals need to be met.   Does the Government want people to grow trees?  Then it should provide the guidance or butt-out.

[SwampDonkey]

I extracted this part from your post for comment, but I also agree with you on most of your other points.

The classes that interested tree farmers once attended down the road, for free or for the price of a meal now cost 300 or 500 dollars and are held in some big hotel 200 miles away. (close to an institute of higher learning usually-God forbid that a professor had to travel)

Does the "industry" think I'm going to stop what I'm doing for 3 days or more, pay $500 to be away from my money-making business to listen to some school teacher ramble about the Lignin in Pine?  I don't think so.

I've seen that here also. Thank goodness our Board does put on courses at their office or local halls for free to the woodlot owner. Although, at times the advertising for them is a little shottie. But, it doesn't involve someone talking over the audiences head, they are asked to be down to earth for a general audience.

When I see seminars/info sessions near Universities, the audience are generaly employees of industry and government who pay them to sit there, plus pay the cost of the seminar/info session. Take it from me, very little knowledge  is gained, it's just a day taken to get away from the office and rub shoulders with colleges. ;D I attended one seminar that was free and they had a few folks like myself from outside the 'circle', so the next year they charged $250. And as you say Tom, no one with their own business is going to take a day off where he has to both give up his daily wage and pay out an equivelent to 2 or 3 days pay to see some professor type talk over his head all day about some instrument he setup on top of a tower to measure CO2 sequestration. :D  (breather here :D) What bothers me most about it is that fact they receive government grants (my tax dollars) for projects and the general public has to pay to attend the seminars and info sessions.  >:(

As a final note, I know what it was like before woodlot owners organized, and even if their is low attendance to our efforts sometimes, absolutely know one with strong ties to their woodlots ever wants to go back whether they cut wood for a living or only on occassion. ;)

[Tom]

While sometimes I feel a Little ire and run-on , getting more out of hand with every typed word,  It does feel good to know that there are others in the "chain" who have experienced what I describe, whether agreeing or not.   

These "seminars" are being advertised to the land-owners now with brochures and sign-up sheets being mailed to us under the auspices of programs supported, if not run, by the State.  That makes them look pretty official and the charges are a confusing item.

Those of us with enough time in the field, as land-owners, can remember a county forester visiting on occasion to see how we were fairing and if we needed any help or advice.  It usually got him a cup of coffee ......  or maybe dinner.

[SwampDonkey]

Yes, when there is a timber harvest in the state of Illinois, there is a 4% tax, this money goes into a management fund, and the landowner still has to pay the income tax on the sale.

Our local Forest Products Marketing Board and Association coexist. One does the marketing and the other does the education and on the ground work. We have a 2.2 % levey on all private wood sales in our two counties. 1.7 % goes to paying wages and running the infrastructure of the marketing board. These folks have some good paying jobs and well deserved. I've worked there for years. The remaining 0.5 % goes into a forest managment fund. Some mills top this fund up. The key here is that the majority of wood from private woodlots goes through the Board. If not, the whole thing would collapse over night. We have 12 board of directors elected by delegates from each parish. There is also a forest products commission with members from government, industry and private woodlot sector. Their role is to 'police' the marketing board system. The volume of sales that pass through our local board (there are 6 others) ranges from $10-15 million per year. I've seen this Board take losses in the $200,000-$300,000 range from defunct mills over the last 10 years. They still beat on.  8)

Was just thinking that Kirk, and others among us, may find this info useful.

cheers

[Tome]

At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The University of Edinborough) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian Republic" some 2,000 years prior:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From Bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage."

[eagles nest]

what is youalls thoughts on the state's tree farm program
i joined & a state forester came out developed a 5 year plan on 7 stands covering about 50 acres no charge.
i just got back from the mo. tree farm conferance didnt see any of you there why is that?

[crtreedude]

Tome,

That quote is one of my favorites. What I would love is if all Democracies would pass a law requiring that it was printed in bold letter above all polling booths. Perhaps people would think before they pulled the lever...

When you vote, you aren't voting your pocketbook - you are voting for the survival of Democracy.

[Kevin_H.]

A resolution was passed last week to address woodland assessments in illinois.

The resolution urges the department of revenue to enact a 2 year moratorium on assessment changes and create a task force to make recommendations for needed changes to the Illinois property tax laws.

From what I understand the illinois dept of rev. has issued a letter to all assessors in the state saying that the department will accept the old woodland assesment for the next 2 years.

On the flip side the resolution is not binding and if the county assessor wants to value your woodland at the new rate thay still can.

[Goose79]

I assume that you are talking about House Bill 4175,  I know they amended it to include the 06 and 07 tax year, but as far as I know it is only on second reading.  I do not think it has come to a full vote yet.

Please let me know if I am wrong.

Goose

[Kevin_H.]

It looks like HJR 0095

Creates the Wooded Land Assessment Task Force concerning the assessment of wooded land and property under forestry management programs. Urges the Department of Revenue to accept the reduced valuation of certain wooded land for the 2006 and 2007 taxable years.

The last action was on 2-23

HB4175

Amends the Property Tax Code. Provides that, beginning with the 2005 assessment year, qualified timberland shall be assessed at 33 1/3% of the lesser of: (i) its value; or (ii) $500 per acre. Defines "qualified timberland" as any parcel of unimproved real property that is timberland and that: (1) does not qualify as cropland, permanent pasture, other farmland, or wasteland; and (2) is not managed under a forestry management plan so as to be considered as "other farmland". Effective immediately.

house amendment to HB4175

Deletes everything after the enacting clause. Amends the Property Tax Code. Provides that if, during the 2005 taxable year, certain wooded land was valued based upon its productivity index equalized assessed value as cropland, then the Department of Revenue must accept any similar valuation of that wooded land for the 2006 and 2007 taxable years. Effective immediately.

Goose you are right it looks like it is in it's second reading.

I guess in the mean time the non binding resolution asks the county assessors not to assess at the higher rate set forth by bullitin 810

[SwampDonkey]

  If forestry companies had to pay $500/acre  taxes they'de be bankrupt. My woodlot is only taxed at $27.00. But, if your land is 10 acres or less it's taxed as commercial or developed land. I know one old guy that has a couple lots like that and has been trying to get it assessed at woodland, they won't budge.

[Goose79]

Thanks for the info on HJR 0095, I had not found that one yet.  There are also a couple other bills HB 4416 & 4289.

HB 4416, states that the assessment for 2004 must be used for 2005 and after for woodland.  This bill has not moved out of rules since January.

HB4289, is the same as 4175, it will also be amended to remove the $500 an acre, and just give a grace period for a few years.

The $500 is really not that bad when they could be using the current property value.  I saw a 130 acre tract of timber sell in my area for $7800 an acre.  I would gladly take the assessed value of $500 an acre.

I think the most that will happen is landowners will get a year or two to prepare for higher taxes.  I really would like to see a lower rate, instead of using the 33 1/3. 

The assessor in my county stated that "woodland has been taxed cheap for to long.  The price per acre is on average $3000 plus, and people are making money off of hunting leases", so he says.

As for the counties near me:

Madison County has been in the process of updating assessments for the last four or so years.

Macoupin County, the assessor is foaming at the mouth to start reassessing all the timber in the county.

Montgomery County, they actually did not know much about the new assessment and were doing some more research to decide how to handle the tax.

Bond, the assessor said he was not going to be that aggressive, I doubt that.

That is all who I have talked with about the tax.

Goose

[Ron Wenrich]

Swamp

I believe that's the assessed rate, not the taxes. 

[SwampDonkey]

Now that I think about it Ron, that makes sence. Here they call 'Levy' the tax, probably the same down there. They have my woodlot total assessment at $1600. Wish I could buy a hundred acres for that. The government has a 100 acre parcel of land they are selling with mature timber. Their assessment is $170,000. No one around here, including the better off loggers (if there is such a thing) could afford that.  :

[Kevin_H.]

I too believe that there is no way of stopping it, hopefully the extra 2 years will allow more land owners get into a foresty mgnt program.

[wesdor]

Maybe I should keep my mouth shut, since this is pretty new stuff for me.  However, in the hopes of somebody setting me straight if I have this wrong, I'll add my two cents.

My understanding is that timber land enrolled in the forestry program is assessed at 1/6 of farm ground.  Also, it must be at least a 10 year commitment from the land owner. 

The problem around here (western Illinois) and I think statewide, is that the governor has cut back on the forestry department to such an extent that nobody can get a forestor to sign them up.

There are rumors that we might be able to accomplish an enrollment, but to date I haven't seen anyone actually get signed on.  I've been led to believe some form of Forestry sign-up may happen in March, but that is as yet unscheduled.

If a sign up actually occurs, I'll be happy to share that information with everyone here.

[Kirk_Allen]

The Govenor has depleted the funds from DNR since he took office.  Our local forester does not have gas to even inspect timber and because of cut backs he is supposed to take care of 9 counties.

We have a retired Forester that is doing management plans and getting timber entered into the forester program to circumvent the tax issue. 

Was told today that our Gov. plans on wiping out the Conservation Police because the State Police can do that job :( >:(  One of the Officers south of us was let go today. 

I know Cumberland county chose to IGNORE the requested hold on implementing the new tax change.  Talked with landowners who are now getting popped for $50 acre for timber.  Some of them have 100-200 acres.

For anyone in Illinois you had best push real hard to ensure this Jerk we have as Govener does not get realected.  He braggs about not raising income tax but behind the scenes he does this kind of crap.  Folks in Chicago dont care because they dont have grass let alone timber and all the money he can grap goes straight north to the windy city.

[wesdor]

Kirk,
We've talked about this before, but I'm really afraid this guy is going to be re-elected.  Now that is just about as bad a thing as I can imagine for our state.   

I'm still waiting on the details of what I PM'd you about.  So far I've seen some sample plans, and have had some promises, but nothing has come to reality. 


I sure hope the citizens of our state wake up soon.

[SwampDonkey]

You guys are running into the same thing we have up here for years. The additude is: 'If it doesn't effect my situation, I don't care'. And you farmer and woodlot owners are a small voice compared to the rest of the populous.

Something came up today. And this is going off topic here, but oh well.  :
There was someone in the news, I don't know the details, who made a statement today that on farms one spouse has to work off the farm to keep things going. My mother heard this jerk and reminded me that they (farmers and spouses) have been telling these jerks this for at least 40 years already.  : I've met with many farmers over the years to crusie their woods or do plans and in alot of cases (not most) their wife is a teacher or a nurse. Some farmers who are part timers, have a government job, usually an agriculture agency or teach highschool. I know 12 of these guys off the top of my head. One farm the husband and wife are both veternarians. One farm the husband worked on another farm on a salary while his wife run the dairy farm. That farm he worked on is a large corporation.

[crtreedude]

Unfortunately the rules rarely are structured for the farmers or the small lot owner - Too often the government on one side of it's mouth will talk about the environment and preserving family values and on the otherside, destroy them.

Perhaps the best solution is to just let the press into - lots and lots of articles for the papers. Sometimes it helps.

[olyman]

oh to have a armed rebellion against all elected govenment officials----cause me thinks theres something perverse all across the usa happening in the general elections--my town being one example---

[beenthere]

Getting involved in the system is a smarter way to go, IMO. Otherwise we are no different than those who have no regard for their system.
The system we have can work. There are parts of it that are frustrating at times. No other country is better, IMO. If it was better, we could just move there.