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barrel staves

Started by ATLGA, April 12, 2013, 10:28:08 AM

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ATLGA

It looks like two companies pretty much dominate this industry. Are there any smaller manufacturers or niche markets for this kind of product? Ive done some Google research but cant find much.  :P :P :P ???
America First.

Mooseherder

I imagine the barrel producers are also picky about where the wood comes from because the flavor their Customers brands are producing.  If they are used to using White Oak from a certain region this may limit their willingness to change?
Stavebuyer must know the reason.
The barrels sure are expensive.  I looked into getting a couple for my wine hobby.  Looks like I'll stay with my carboys for now.

Bibbyman

Making barrel staves is pretty specialized requiring specialized equipment.  I expect many are exported to Europe.  There is a cooperage Lebanon, Mo.
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Jay C. White Cloud

Hi ATLGA,

Coopers are a tight nit bunch, and have maintained there craft for a long time, in many cultures.  As has been said, they are really picky about he wood, some even maintain their own forests.  Some are still only hand made.  Which two companies are you referring two?  What do you specifically want to know?

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

ATLGA

American Stave Company & Independent Stave Company - I was just wondering if there were any smaller companies making similar products that would need a source for their stave parts.
America First.

Hilltop366

A few years back there was a stave saw for sale some where here in Nova Scotia, seems to me it was around $4000 - $5000.

The saw part looked like a large hole saw.

As far as a niche market, the first thing that comes to mind is for decoration, and landscaping planters (½ a barrel).

Dewey

There was a stave mill a couple miles from here  .   It was all old equipment  really a cool operation....  The owner retired  and the son sold out  now it's a deserted  buildin....

mesquite buckeye

They are still making barrels in Higbee, MO. Don't know the name of the company. Last I heard the barrels were going to Japan for sake. Somewhat different size than we use for whiskey and wine here.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

AdamT

Quote from: ATLGA on April 12, 2013, 05:11:07 PM
American Stave Company & Independent Stave Company - I was just wondering if there were any smaller companies making similar products that would need a source for their stave parts.

American stave is a subsidiary of independant stave company, so in that respect I call that the same company more or less. ISC has a mill 25 miles from me in Salem, IN called "Blue River Wood Products", and of course all they saw is barrel staves.

There's a few other small stave mills in southern Indiana and Kentucky. Kentucky being the largest bourbon producer, it's only fitting the stave mills are close by.

About once a week I see a semi hauling stave south into KY headed for a cooperage, most likely from Blue River Wood Products.

I imagine its a very tough market to compete in...

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Jay C. White Cloud

Very tough market, and very specific, I know it from some Sake coopers, (forget what they are called?)  It is very tight nit group.  I would love to learn more myself, if anyone has additional insight.
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Fla._Deadheader


I used to sell stave bolts in Marshall, Arkansas.
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   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

drobertson

I heard years ago that there are some distillers in Scottland that require their stock to come from Missouri white oaks, not sure how factual, just something I heard.  I tried to get in years ago, was pretty much shut out. No room for conversation at all.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

ATLGA

Yeah I really wonder what the deal is with that. Every company that is already established wants everyone to believe their product is the best and comes from the best sources etc etc. It happens in every market no matter what you are selling or buying, its just how sales and trade function. I would be very curious how different a Tennessee barrel would be from a Missouri barrel. I am just not convinced.
America First.

stavebuyer

While the "big two" probably account for close to 90% of the market there are some small producers. American Stave is the log procurement arm for Independent Stave which actually builds the barrels. Brown-Foreman has its own stave mills and cooperages operating as Bluegrass Stave. Bluegrass recently opened a new mill in Stevenson, AL. When the market is good both companys will supplement in house production with purchased staves.

The cooperage industry is extremely tight lipped and hard to access. The wood and the char process is a large part of the color and taste of the finished product. Sort of like the cooperage holding the secret formula.   

Wood from southern parts of the White Oak range is usually not acceptable. The Ozarks and Appalachain/Cumberland mtns produce some very thin sapped and tight grained white oak. Sapwood is a defect in a finished stave and only 1/4" is allowed on the outside of a bourbon stave. 

stavebuyer

Lower priced brands are sometimes aged in stainless steel vats and get there "char" from what amounts to a "white oak tea bag". Sometimes defect free white oak lumber is purchased for this use. Where the small producer is really at a disadvatage is while you may find a home for the longer/wider staves you saw; the company owned mills can use the small/short pieces for barrel heading thereby giving them a large yield advantage making it hard to compete against them for logs.

Texas Ranger

A side note, back in the days of my formal education we visited a stave mill in southern Missouri, some where within 50 miles or so of Puxico.  The one thing I noticed was that most of the workers were missing fingers.  The mill, I think, had a horizontal saw.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

drobertson

Quote from: ATLGA on April 14, 2013, 05:29:55 PM
Yeah I really wonder what the deal is with that. Every company that is already established wants everyone to believe their product is the best and comes from the best sources etc etc. It happens in every market no matter what you are selling or buying, its just how sales and trade function. I would be very curious how different a Tennessee barrel would be from a Missouri barrel. I am just not convinced.
Yea, I'm not sure either, just something I heard, now this was for the single malt scotch whiskey, bourbon whiskey may have differing requirements.  It is an interesting study for folks that do their own.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

LeeB

Quote from: AdamT on April 12, 2013, 06:57:24 PM
There's a few other small stave mills in southern Indiana and Kentucky. Kentucky being the largest bourbon producer, it's only fitting the stave mills are close by.

Actually, all bourbon is produced in Kentucky and only in two counties there. Has something to do with the iron content, or more specifically the lack there of, in the water. Whiskey made anywhere else cannot be called bourbon.
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AdamT

Quote from: LeeB on April 15, 2013, 01:24:46 PM
Quote from: AdamT on April 12, 2013, 06:57:24 PM
There's a few other small stave mills in southern Indiana and Kentucky. Kentucky being the largest bourbon producer, it's only fitting the stave mills are close by.

Actually, all bourbon is produced in Kentucky and only in two counties there. Has something to do with the iron content, or more specifically the lack there of, in the water. Whiskey made anywhere else cannot be called bourbon.

Wrong. Bourbon can be made anywhere. You can make it in your own backyard. There are differences between bourbon and whiskey, but the the state it's produced in is not one. All bourbons are whiskeys, but not all whiskeys are bourbons.

And more than 2 counties in KY produce bourbon. Bullit, Woodford, Anderson, Marion... I'm sure there's more but I can't think of them...

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LeeB

I stand corrected.
Perhaps I should research a little more next time.
On May 4, 1964, the United States Congress recognized bourbon whiskey as a "distinctive product of the United States". Bourbon may be produced anywhere in the United States where it is legal to distill spirits. But most brands are produced in Kentucky, where bourbon production has a strong historical association.[16] Iron-free water that has been filtered through the high concentrations of limestone, unique to the area, is often touted by bourbon distillers in Kentucky as a signature step in the bourbon-making process.[17]

It has been reported that 97% of all bourbon is distilled and aged somewhere near Bardstown, Kentucky.[18] which is home to the annual Bourbon Festival held each September, and has been called the "Bourbon Capital of the World" by the Bardstown Tourism Commission[19] and the Kentucky Bourbon Festival organizers[20] who have registered the phrase as a trademark. The Kentucky Distillers' Assocation estimates that 95% of all bourbon is produced in Kentucky and that the state has 4.9 million barrels of bourbon that are currently aging – a figure that exceeds the state population, according to an article in USA Today in February 2013
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

steamsawyer

Quote from: AdamT on April 15, 2013, 02:32:43 PM
Quote from: LeeB on April 15, 2013, 01:24:46 PM
Quote from: AdamT on April 12, 2013, 06:57:24 PM
There's a few other small stave mills in southern Indiana and Kentucky. Kentucky being the largest bourbon producer, it's only fitting the stave mills are close by.

Actually, all bourbon is produced in Kentucky and only in two counties there. Has something to do with the iron content, or more specifically the lack there of, in the water. Whiskey made anywhere else cannot be called bourbon.

Wrong. Bourbon can be made anywhere. You can make it in your own backyard. There are differences between bourbon and whiskey, but the the state it's produced in is not one. All bourbons are whiskeys, but not all whiskeys are bourbons.

And more than 2 counties in KY produce bourbon. Bullit, Woodford, Anderson, Marion... I'm sure there's more but I can't think of them...


I don't know much about spirits, but I thought whiskey was whiskey, and bourbon is a blend of different whiskeys. I'm not much for the brown stuff, but I like gin. ;D

Alan

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Sixacresand

On a college field trip in the late sixties, we visited a mill near Clarksville, Tn.  It was the first time I ever saw a band mill.  They milled oak and said it was for whiskey barrels.  I don't know if it is still in business.
"Sometimes you can make more hay with less equipment if you just use your head."  Tom, Forestry Forum.  Tenth year with a LT40 Woodmizer,

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