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My 240 quit on me yestarday

Started by Woodboogah, January 22, 2014, 07:34:18 AM

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Woodboogah

I am having an issue I believe is ice, not quite sure though.  Here is the series of events that took place and what I have already tried.  Started machine yesterday morning like I normally do.  Started fine, idled fine while warming up (I would say about 20min).  Headed out to grab a hitch.  Was running fine until I hit a hill.  I can usually make this hill in second gear, had to drop it down to first but made it up.  Hook a hitch up and headed out.  About half way out started dogging down.  Sounded like dirty filters (last change was mid December) I would stop pump the throttle and it would clear a little then I would go for a bit and same thing  Over and over again progessivly getting worse.  I was able to get out to the landing with the full hitch but at a snails pace.  After I bucked the logs up I just let the machine run, and it finally quit.  I could start it right back up give it some fuel and it would quit.  I was able to do this a few time until it just cranked and wouldnt fire.   I spun both filters off, they didnt look bad and were not completely empty but not full either I filled them up with diesel 911.  I also blew back both the in and out line from filters.  I got gurgling in the tank when blowing back into it, telling me that line was clear.  I then tried to turn over machine with filters off figuring I would get fuel, I got nothing. I put the filters back on and primed the heck out of it seeing if I could suck that 911 through the lines.  I didnt suck any fuel out of filters.  I am thinking I burned all the fuel out of the motor and have to prime it somehow?  Is anything I am doing making any sense or am I just wasting time.  An old time said it could be the filters waxed up?  Is that noticeable by eye?  Thank you for any and all suggestions.  Also, I am running on-road fuel out of a transfer tank.  This could be part of the problem as well, bad fuel?   
Keenan Logging & Tree Care, LLC

Stephen Alford

I always check that air kill flap any time I have any kind of problem. Then the air filter.  Anytime I have had the fuel filter off I have to take a shringe and fill the filter. I guess this would come under the "any suggestion" category.  :)


 
logon

Woodboogah

I took the air filter out cleaned it and checked the air shut off.  There is probably other stuff that  I forgot to mention as well.  Do you fill up the filter spin it on then top it off with the syringe? 
Keenan Logging & Tree Care, LLC

Stephen Alford

  Yes I do that for them both.  It seems to work pretty good as it allows the air out while the fuel goes in.   :)


 
logon

treeslayer2003

I seen this before, you have a restriction some where. could be something in the tank that moved when you blew thru but moves back while running.
could also be a week lift pump or the pump coupler is wore round.

treeslayer2003

you can prime it with a small hand pump. connect to the inlet on the primary fuel filter and pump fuel till you hear it return in the tank.

OntarioAl

Woodboogah
I have something floating around in my tank and gets sucked into the intake and restricts the fuel flow with exactly the same results as you describe. I occurs so rarely I have not gotten around to draining the tank and using an old shop vac  to suck up the scum off the bottom.
I blow air back into the tank from the inlet side of the primary filter once I hear the gurgling in the tank I know the line is clear. I recognize the problem before the filters get sucked dry and my machine starts right up stutters a little and then clears up and runs perfectly.
You cured the first problem but from your description of priming the fuel filters (and I am assuming this is a Detroit Diesel) you have inadvertently air locked the transfer pump This little gear pump located between the primary and secondary filters will  not work if it has the least amount of air in it. You have to purge the air by forcing fuel from the primary filter  through the pump and on through the secondary filter.
I  find that if I have access to compressed air I just pressurize the fuel tank and open the plug on top of the secondary filter and just wait till fuel comes out tighten the plug and after a few cranks to get the fuel flowing to the injectors she should fire right up.
I went through this same scenario when I first started out.
Hope this heps
Al
Al Raman

Woodboogah

Ontario Al,  I have blown back from the inlet and I got gurgling in the tank.  I think what you are describing could very well be my problem.  I looked as good as I could in my transfer tank and its full of junk.  I cleaned it out in the fall but all junked up again.  I pulled the filter off of it as well and it was a rust colored sludge.  Tomorrow I am going to put new filters on with fresh fuel in them.  I will leave the fuel in my fuel tank in the machine seeing as I just topped it off.  I will pressurize like you said and see If I can get something going.  Yes, it is a 4-53 detroit.  I cant think of any pump inbetween the two filters though.  Unless its what the primary is screwed to.  I have what I believe is the fuel pump right above the starter but its on the opposite side of the engine. 
Keenan Logging & Tree Care, LLC

treeslayer2003

pump is bolted to the bottom part of govorner.

OntarioAl

Woodbogah
In Stephen's first post photo, the pump is at the four o'clock position. That is what they look like, it is plumbed into your system somehow, the engine will not run without it working and they will not work if air  locked
Hope this helps
Al
Al Raman

Woodboogah

OK, got it.  Mine is on the opposite side of the motor.  Thank you.  I'll post how I make out tomorrow hopefully after getting some wood out!!
Keenan Logging & Tree Care, LLC

JDeere

I will bet if you change your filters and add some power service 911 to your fuel you will be going again. Whenever I have the issues you are describing I have found that most times it is the fuel filters. Probably have ice in them given the recent weather.
2013 Western Star, 2012 Pelletier trailer, Serco 7500 crane, 2007 Volvo EC 140, 2009 John Deere 6115D, 2002 Cat 938G, 1997 John Deere 540G, 1996 Cat D-3C, 1995 Cat 416B, 2013 Cat 305.5E

kb88

My 225 will sometimes get junk in the elbow in the primary filter where the line from the tank goes in or it will plug in the tank.

OntarioAl

Woodboogah
After reading your posts several times I have a strong suspicion that you my have put poor quality fuel  in your skidder via your transfer tank  plugging your filters with wax (summer grade fuel) ice crystals and rust.
I am assuming you have spin on automotive type filters rather than the older replaceable element type the difference being in the older type you can readily see what is plugging your filters you have to cut the automotive type open to check them.
I would strongly advise you to check the quality of the fuel in your transfer tank and in the skidder (syphon/pump from each about a gallon out into  a clean pail if it flows slowly it is probably too heavy a grade and is waxing in your filters) Let it settle and check for any suspended crud accumulating on the bottom.
Detroits usually do not have waxing problems because they cycle so much fuel back to the tank it warms the fuel enough to melt the snow that comes in contact with the tank for this reason you should try to top up your skidder fuel tank at the end of the day to help minimize condensation.
Fuel with suspended ice crystals will also plug filters and cause fuel starvation in any event you are going to have to change the filters dose your fuel with power service 911 or similar winter treatment for diesel fuel and purge the air out of the transfer pump and you should be good to go.
In the worst case scenario in that the filters continue to plug you will have to syphon all the fuel out of the skidder tank and replace it with clean winter grade fuel.
I hope it is just a simple filter replacement fuel treatment and good to go.
Al

Al Raman

coxy

check the rubber lines mine started coming a part in side

Woodboogah

Headed out this morn and my dad called me (he was meeting me over there with the generator) and said the generator wouldnt start.  Always something.   Just called as I am typing this and its running.  Ill let you know how I make out this afternoon.  Thanks again for all the advise and tips.  Much appreciated.
Keenan Logging & Tree Care, LLC

Stephen Alford

   You lads seem to have this  under control.  Might add I find those vinyl medical gloves great for keeping  petroleum products off the paws reducing frostbite. Now that I work alone I no longer bother with those transfer tanks. Gone back to new 5 gallon jugs every year with a good screened funnel.    Noticed a lot of those tanks without a filter and to big to keep filled. Add the no baffle design makes me think its got to be tough on the frame of a pickup sloshing back and forth.
   Nice posts Al very thorough.   :)
logon

Woodboogah

I am done with my transfer tank.  More hassle then what is worth.  OK, so all day I tried everything I could think of minus bleeding injectors, never done it and dont want this to cost me more then it has to.  I started with two new filters filled with fresh fuel and power service 911.  I had heat on it all day as well both sides of machine.  I blew out all lines that had anything to do with fuel.  I got it going once with both lines off the pump, on accident.  I was going to see if there was anything coming through the lines and I hit the starter button and fired up like it was summer time.  I killed it, hooked up all lines, it started and idled fine then died out after a while.  It sucked all the fuel out of the secondary pump before it quit.  After that I couldnt get it going again.  I tried everything.  I never took the pump off just blew through it and the lines.  I believe it is the original pump, is it possible it is a combo or if failing and cold weather?  I am stumped now and I do not want to call a mechanic out, but may have to. 
Keenan Logging & Tree Care, LLC

snowstorm

Quote from: Stephen Alford on January 22, 2014, 08:48:52 AM
  Yes I do that for them both.  It seems to work pretty good as it allows the air out while the fuel goes in.   :)


 
the pipe plug he is pointing to. if you take that out and install a fuel pressure guadge. be sure and put it in the secondaire filter. oil psi guadge is fine. shuld be 65psi running wide open 10 at idle

bushmechanic

Hey woodboogah I would try the can on the hood trick. Get a 5 gallon can of fuel and put it on the hood or roof and put a line down to the primary filter. Get the fuel flowing and install the line on the filter. With the raised can you are eliminating the fuel tank and lines and the fuel pump as the engine will run on gravity flow of fuel. If the engine runs ok on the can then you know you have a problem on the tank side (lines) or fuel pump. I have seen the drive tear up on a lot of the 353 fuel pumps but that don't sound like your problem. I think it may be dirt collected in the 90 degree fitting on the primary filter housing. hope this helps.

OntarioAl

Woodboogah
I sense your frustration we all have had our moments as equipment owner/operators, relax get a good nights sleep and in the morning the sun will shine and the birds (at the feeder) will sing. Have a good breakfast in the morning (I do love my fresh ground coffee) Drive out to the job site when you get there take a moment to look around at beauty of  God's creation thank him the privilege of working in such beautiful surroundings and ask for patience in making the repairs ( works for me when I have had frustrating moments)
Now trace the routing of your fuel system and do the checks  I suggest.
The fuel  system on a Detroit  is very straight forward fuel is sucked from the tank through the primary filter by the transfer pump which then pushes it through the secondary filter and into the fuel oil gallery in the head. The injectors are connected to this gallery and are always charged with fuel the excess returns to the tank.
Injectors in a Detroit never have to be bled.
Check the rubber fuel line from the tank to the primary filter if it is old and cracked it can be allow air to be sucked in  the air locking the pump  and starving the engine.
If the intake line is good cut open your primary filter to see what is plugging it if as  I suspect its plugged up you have contaminated fuel and you will have to  drain/syphon/suck as much as you can out and replace it with clean fuel.
As to the engine starting and running with the pump disconnected that's a new one on me ( although I have an idea of why it can happen).
Was any fuel coming out of one of the lines?
Where did these lines come from and go to?
Hope this helps
Al
Al Raman

Woodboogah

Thanks for the advice, this has been a real learning curve but I am grateful I have people here able to physically help me out and the knowledge of you guys here, at has been a huge help.  When the machine fired both lines were off the pump and no fuel was coming out of either of them.  I have my old filters here and will cut into them before I head out.  One thing I did not mention which I should have.  When I took my old filters off I dumped them and the primary was fairly clear but the secondary looked like I was dumping out used motor oil, that's how black it was. I cannot express how much I appreciate all the information.  Thank you again!
Keenan Logging & Tree Care, LLC

Woodboogah

also, to use a aux fuel tank I am assuming to just put the fuel line from that tank into the in port of the primary filter?  Or is there something else I should be doing. 
Keenan Logging & Tree Care, LLC

Stephen Alford

 There is a gadget for siphoning gas. Its a hose with a hand primer in line might help. We get them were they carry outboard motors for boats.The can or tank has to go up on the hood above the engine as Bushmechanic has explained. But you want fuel coming out when you connect it. If the hose is on both ends with clamps,then pump the primer bulb till fuel comes out the air plugs at the filters.  I am not a mechanic just trying to help. From reading your post sure sounds like bad filters. Do the test and you should at least know were to look for the problem.Not trying to tell you what to do but when this happened to me I just replaced the fuel line on the machine. These are not good temps to be messin with fuel (-29 here). Hope it goes well.  :)
logon

Woodboogah

OK, I have a siphon so thats a good start.  Do I need to attach that line with a fitting or can I just put it in the hole?  This is my next step I just want to make sure I am doing it right.  My machine is an hour away so  I am trying to soak in the information before heading out.  I have pictures but I am sure they are what everyone has already seen.  filters, pump, etc.  Thanks again
Keenan Logging & Tree Care, LLC

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