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Introduction, and question RE cutting a tree while using a rope puller

Started by Mike_H, September 05, 2016, 10:25:09 PM

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Mike_H

Hi there,

First post here, though I've already learned lots by reading the wealth of information on this forum! I am grateful to the developers, sponsors, mods, and contributors for such a helpful site.

I'm an "elderly novice" when it comes to chainsaw use and tree felling. I've owned an MS250 for about 10 years, which I've mostly used to cut up logs that arrive on the river bank in my back yard every spring with the ice breakup on the Red River. I do basic maintenance on the saw - sharpening the chain, adjusting the carb, cleaning the air filter. However, in all that time I've likely only used it for a few hours total.

We recently purchased some property a couple of hours away in northwestern Ontario as a pre-retirement plan - it's about 1.5 acres on Canadian shield - basically lots of granite, with trees having a shallow root base and vulnerable to blow-down. Our trees are mostly aspen, with some white birch, bur oak, white spruce, and balsam fir. I'm guessing the biggest trees would be about 75 feet high and 18 inch diameter at the base. However, 90% of the mature trees are in the 35-50 ft tall range, and about 6-12 inches at the base.

Although I didn't need it, I wanted a nicer saw for limbing an bucking blown-down trees for firewood, and for occasional felling. I bought a Stihl MS 261 CM with an 18 inch bar, and have used it for a few hours cleaning up fallen trees for fire wood. It is a joy to use - not that I had any troubles with the MS250.

I have a healthy respect for the risks of tree felling, having had a family member die as a result of a tree-felling accident. I've watched the good, bad, and ugly that YouTube has to offer, and learned a lot from this forum. After reading some recommendations here, I have a copies of Dent's "Professional Timber Falling: A Procedural Approach" and Jepson's "To Fell A Tree: A Complete Guide to Successful Tree Felling and Woodcutting Methods" on order.

The arborist who does much of the the tree care and felling in our city neighbourhood (huge 100+ year old old American elms and bur oaks) has enthusiastically agreed to let my buy a day of his time to provide one-on-one lessons in basic tree felling on his rural property. He instructs for Hydro crews here, and has done lots of work in our yard.

I've pretty much loaded up on the protective gear, with the combined helmet/ear/face mask set up, 3600 fpm chaps, cut-resistant gloves, and steel-toed boots. I think I would be the nerd who would be picked on at recess at logging camp for having too much gear  :)

Now - on to my question: today I took down a 48 ft, 7 inch diameter standing dead aspen that had a mild lean (5-10 degrees) towards my cabin and outhouse. It didn't seem rotten, at least in the bottom 10-15 feet. If (when) it ever came down in a storm or just from eventually rotting, it would likely have damaged the nearby structures or become hung up in adjacent aspens.

I used a Maasdam 3/4-Ton Rope Puller with 100' rope to pull it in the direction of the desired fall. Thankfully it landed safely exactly where I wanted it to, however I have a couple of questions.

I attached the rope as high as I could (only 15 feet - is there a technique to getting it higher?), secured the puller to another tree about 90 feet away and applied tension until the tree was leaning slightly in the desired direction. I cut a conventional notch, and I was only a few inches into the back cut when the tree started to move - i.e. the notch started to open up due to the tension from the puller.

I essentially bolted along my planned escape route, as I wasn't sure whether the leaning tension caused by the winch would make this tree vulnerable to a barber chair, similar to a naturally leaning tree. The tree didn't fall, but I just winched it down from afar now that it had already started to go. However I am not proud of the hinge it left. It should have been about one inch, and instead it was about 2.5 - 3 inches. I essentially ripped the tree down without grace or elegance, and although it ended up fine (perhaps by luck) it would be nice to have proper technique so that future efforts will be reliably safe and effective. The videos and reading material I've found on barber chairs has made me quite nervous about them, which is why I got out quickly when I heard and saw the tree move.

My main question is: Does the tension from a winch increase the risk of barber chairing when you make the felling cuts? Although this tree was likely too small to do a bore cut and then release the back strap, would that be wise in a bigger tree that was being pulled?

I'm wondering if I should have been more assertive in making a proper hinge, instead of running in terror when it started to go? I've read that in trees with a high risk of barber-chairing, being tentative can be worse than being quick and decisive in the back cut.

Thanks,

Mike










Ianab

Welcome to the forum  :)

When you are doing this, don't "pre-tension" the rope. Just take it up so it's not slack. It will hold the tree if it tries to go backwards, but you aren't expecting it to be pulled over yet.  Yes putting too much tension on the tree can cause a barber chair.

Now make your notch and back cut as normal. You can use wedges if you think it's going to pinch the saw. Get the tree all ready to fall, but leave it there balanced on your hinge wood / wedges.  Sometimes the rope was only a precaution and the tree falls anyway, or with a tap on the wedge, great.

If not, you walk the LONG WAY around to your rope puller / winch / tractor / skidder etc, and start hauling on it. That should tip the tree over, and if anything does go wrong, like a barber chair, at least you are 90 feet away from the action.

And yes dead wood behaves differently to a healthy tree. Even if it's not obviously rotten, it's weaker and more brittle. Hence your pretensioned tree snapping off early.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Mike_H


venice

Welcome to the FF.

There are telescopic poles available to get your rope higher up.

venice

OlJarhead

Quote from: Ianab on September 05, 2016, 11:40:52 PM
Welcome to the forum  :)

When you are doing this, don't "pre-tension" the rope. Just take it up so it's not slack. It will hold the tree if it tries to go backwards, but you aren't expecting it to be pulled over yet.  Yes putting too much tension on the tree can cause a barber chair.

Great answer.

I've done this many times and find that all that is required is enough tension to keep the slack out of the rope/cable.  I prefer to use a block and tackle on a stump in the direction I want the tree to go, then I can set my winch/tractor whatever 90 degrees to the falling direction.  This gives me a great escape route/place and a safe place to apply tension if needed.

Normally, I just fall the tree as normal without any fuss or need for more tension and have not (knock on wood) had any problems doing this.  I've used this method many times when a tree wants to fall towards my cabin, solar panels, shed etc and I want it to go somewhere else!

Another option is to have a climber go up and limb branches off the heavy side

This big pine was leaning towards the area right between my cabin and shed so I had a guy I know who is a pole climber and who's done a lot of limbing come out and first limb the heavy side of the tree.


Once he got the limbs off the side the tree wanted to go to (it both leaned that way heavily and had a lot of limbs to that side), we attached the rope up about 30 feet (higher than I usually do which is around 15-20 feet -- I use a tall ladder to do that most often) we applied tension and fell the tree about 90 degrees from where it wanted to go.

Safety first!  I use pros to do what I don't normally do or am experienced with myself.
2016 LT40HD26 and Mahindra 5010 W/FEL WM Hundred Thousand BF Club Member

WV Sawmiller

Mike,

   Welcome to the FF. Ian is dead right on the pre-tension risks. My son and I were cutting a medium sized red oak at his place a couple years ago and he pulled it too tight with his tractor and I was cutting. I notched it in the direction to fall then cut straight from the back. I should have bore cut it. It barber chaired up about 11-12 feet, bounced up and punched a hole in his shed roof and lucky it did not hit me.

   As to how to get a rope up higher yesterday we cut a good sized ash leaning over my shed. I took an extension ladder then a climbing deer stand to get higher - maybe 30-32 feet. I was going to cut the top out but got nervous and just decided to take it down intact. I notched it away from the shed, wife pulled with about 200' of 1/4" cable hooked to my P/U. I bore cut then let her pull it and I cut the holding wood and she pulled it on to the ground.

    Another way to get a rope or cable up high is to use a bow and tie a heavy string to the arrow. Shoot it over a big fork or such up high  then use the string to pull a rope or cable up, hook a shackle to it to tighten then tighten the rope or cable in the direction you want it to fall. I use a lot of long cable and snatch blocks to get the right angle and also allows me to pull a tree up hill while driving my 4 wheeler down hill.

    One more word of caution - when the tree starts to fall keep tension on it or when it gets slack it can shift and fall to one side or the other. I dropped a big stink tree across the power line a few years ago cutting one by myself. Hooked the 4 wheeler winch to a walnut in the yard and cable to the tree then started cutting. When it started falling it shifted sideways and fell across and crossed the power lines and I knocked out power for miles up and down the creek. I should have notched in direction of fall, pulled the slack out of the cable, then cut part way then pulled it down and kept tension on the cable while falling.

    We cut and pulled a big cherry leaning over the line fence like that a few months back like that. Hooked a cable up about 28' high using an extension ladder, notched it parallel to the fence by use of a snatch block hooked to a convenient buckeye tree, got the tension out, wife ran the ATV winch and as I cut from the back side it slowly leaned that way. Once it was cut through enough we pulled it on down and it fell perfectly parallel to the fence with no harm to anything.

    Good luck and be careful. The trees scare me every time I cut one and when they don't I will likely stop cutting them.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Mike_H

Thanks for the very helpful comments and suggestions!

The telescoping pole is a good idea - I struggled with how to wrap the rope around the trunk, as there was no crotch or big branch to throw a rope over. I stood on a tall step ladder and just reached around the trunk, but that significantly limited the height I could achieve.

I found this description on the Husqvarna site that suggests using log felling tongs attached to a telescoping pole (I'm assuming these are the lifting/skidding tongs?) - that looks like it might be good for a tall straight trunk:

http://www.husqvarna.com/ie/support/working-with-chainsaws-advanced/safe-winch-technique/

Even a relatively small, skinny tree like this one is anxiety-provoking for me. I will definitely call in a pro if I have something that requires it - the trick of course is recognizing such situations before rather than after things go wrong. I really enjoy the learning involved and the activity, and plan to take a progressive, paced approach to developing the skills in basic felling.

Mike

Okrafarmer

All the advice people have given sounds good. I've used rope pullers quite a bit. One good thing to do is practice two or three times on trees where there is no danger of hitting anything valuable.

Sounds like you did a good job of setting your winching point well outside of the  smash zone. Be sure to give yourself an extra 20-30 feet if possible, for two reasons-- 1., in case you misjudged the height of the tree, and 2., because dead or even healthy limbs can snap off on impact and bounce and go flying in all directions sometimes. Wearing your protective gear is a good move, just be sure that your "escape paths" are clear of debris, since chaps and such can snag on brush and knock you to the ground-- I've had this happen to me before.

Ianab was right about the tension. Take the slack out of the rope, but don't put much tension on-- just enough to hold it firmly without becoming very hard to pull the handle. Then you make your notch and your back cut, keeping a weather eye out for movement in the tree. ideally you will make your hinge near the middle of the tree, certainly where it is still pretty wide, and end up with around a 10-15% width thickness of hinge IF the tree's wood is solid. (10-15% of the tree's diameter).

Notice I said, IF the tree's wood is solid. Some trees are not solid, they are rotten in the middle. When cutting your notch, you need to take careful notice for a rotten center. If you are dealing with a rotten center, then the situation has suddenly become much more complicated and dangerous. With your level of experience, I recommend calling for someone more knowledgeable to help you if you find yourself trying to rope down a tree with a rotten center, especially if there's something like a house you need to avoid hitting. Not to mention, partially rotten trees can be very dangerous to the person running the chainsaw on them. Until you are better experienced, in a situation like that, it's best to get some help.

One time I cut down a tree snag I didn't realize was rotten, and it snapped off before I expected it too. It bounced off a nearby knoll and the butt hit me in the chest, throwing me ten-twelve feet. Thankfully I wasn't hurt badly, but I could have been.

:)
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

bill m

Looking at the picture of the stump your bottom cut went way to far past the top cut. You need to make sure both cuts meet, without and bypass in either direction. Also put just enough tension on the rope to keep the tree from not sitting back. That way you can form a proper hinge without the risk of a barber chair.
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

Okrafarmer

Quote from: bill m on September 09, 2016, 08:30:51 AM
Looking at the picture of the stump your bottom cut went way to far past the top cut. You need to make sure both cuts meet, without and bypass in either direction. Also put just enough tension on the rope to keep the tree from not sitting back. That way you can form a proper hinge without the risk of a barber chair.

Also, once you have your rope tensioned a little but not much, get your notch and your backcut all done with a nice solid hinge left (10-20% of diameter-- depending on tree species-- stronger harder woods, 10%, softer weaker woods, 15-20%). Then get on your rope puller and coax it on over. Once you have your good hinge set up, it should come right on over with a reasonable amount of effort.

Be sure not to out-rate your rope puller. They will only do so much. You can't pull a huge tree more than say 5° or so back, and a small tree, maybe 10° or so-- your mileage may vary, but don't try to ask more of the tool than it is designed for, and NEVER use a cheater bar on the handle-- if you feel you have to do that, you are over-stressing it and it could break.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

square1

Quote from: bill m on September 09, 2016, 08:30:51 AM
That way you can form a proper hinge without which reduces the risk of a barber chair.

Hope my edit is okay.

You've received some excellent advice.

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