Tracked or 6 Wheel Harvester? Fixed Head or Dangle Head? Pros and Cons Please

[danbuendgen]

This summer I took the plunge and I picked up an older Rottne SMV Rapid forwarder. I have always cut with a chain saw and used a small cable skidder. Within the next year or so I would like to get a harvester. I'm 30, I see the industry changing, there a need to cut lots of low grade wood. I have foresters telling me if I get a harvester they could throw a lot of work at me.

I'm still learning about the CTL system, and would like to hear about guys experience with different types of harvesters and heads. Part of me would like to get another older Rottne for a harvester so that way I would have two similar machines that I can get familiar with. But I have worked around tracked harvesters and like those as well.
What are the pros and cons of tracks vs 6 wheels?
Which works better on steep ground?
Which is easier to operate and maintain?
What are the pros and cons of fixed or dangle heads?
What are things to look at when shopping around/what are good questions to ask the seller?
I live in southern Vermont. We have a fair amount of steep and rough terrain here. My plan would be to cut all the small and low grade wood with a harvester and all the larger trees with a chain saw. What type of machine would work well for my area and wood type? I see both wheeled and tracked harvesters in my area, so I know both must work well enough here, but what do you guys think?

No matter what, I would be looking at a older machine. I don't want to get a big bank loan for it. I'm a smaller producer and work alone. I spend a fair amount of time selling split firewood, it was supposed to be for side work, but not it seems to keep me very busy in the summer and fall. I know with a older machine I will have to be working on it. But if I have a smaller loan it seems more feasible. Plus, It seems like newer machines brake down a fair amount also. Then it's broke down, and I would still have a big payment... Also, With a older harvester, I wont have to worry so much about epa emissions.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.

[chevytaHOE5674]

I'm currently running a 6w rubber tired machine and before that ran a Timbco with a fabtek 4 roller head on it. On real steep ground a tracked machine with a leveling cab has the advantage. There were times I pushed myself up hills with the boom and then "tossed" the wood up or down the hill for the forwarder. But a rubber tire machine with over the tire tracks and chains will climb some seriously steep ground as well.

Id say rubber tires are easier to operate as you can drive just about anywhere you want without fear of tearing up roads/trails/bridges/etc (I've driven the current rubber tired machine down the blacktop many times to move job to job without having to pay a lowboy). Also rubber tires are smoother riding and you can cover a lot of ground in a hurry if you want. As far as maintenance goes, the undercarriage on a tracked machine is expensive to replace and can wear quickly depending on the terrain and how far you track. But having 6 tires to maintain and replace is also very expensive, as well as the added cost of OTT tracks, and possible chains. With rubber tires you also have 2 axles and 6 plantaries to maintain.   

IMO/IME Fixed vs Dangle head is a personal thing. I hear guys say how there fixed head machine can cut and process bigger wood, which is true but when they get into smaller stuff they are slow. I'm currently cutting plenty of 20-25" hard maple with a dangle head machine. Also most dangle head machines have an extension boom giving you plenty of reach which is great in lower grade pulp sales as you don't have to move and re-position the machine as often. It is generally easier to make nicer looking piles of wood for the forwarder with a fixed head machine. After running both I would have a hard time going back to a fixed head machine anymore.   

As for looking at older machines be very careful. Many of the older harvesters are becoming obsolete and parts are hard/impossible to find, (I'm running a 2002 Ponsse and the computer system is obsolete and new parts aren't available, so when Ponsse's stack of used junk is gone its a $20K upgrade and rewire to bring it to current tech) Electrical problems can drive an operator to suicide... haha. There are the obvious things to look for in any machine though, pins/bushings, leaks, hoses, cracks in the processing head, cracks/repairs to the boom.

[Gary_C]

That's some very good advice. I too have a 2002 six wheel Ponsse with a dangle head and for a small operator like me I would never consider a tracked machine. Yes they can give you more muscle for larger trees but they are rough riding, more difficult to move (need to be left out in the woods to limit travel distance), and you can easily drop $30K into track and undercarriage maintenance.

I try to stick to pine on the tops of the hills and in the valleys but still get some sloped ground that a wheeled machine will handle almost as good as the fixed head tracked machines. But the self leveling tracked machines are best in the steepest terrain.

Good luck in finding a good, low priced, older harvester. There are some older machines out there that were abused, not maintained, or never worked well when new. It's usually best to talk to the previous owner to find out the weaknesses and impending problems. Nothing beats a good inspection and perhaps a trial run in addition to talking to previous owners/operators.

[AlexHart]

Its totally not what you asked but you might want to at least consider a Bell.   I've had one for going on 2 years now and I've been making pretty good progress with it.   It doesn't come all at once but I find myself getting better and better with it and I wouldn't want to go back to not having one that's for sure.   I remember several months ago I was intimidated to try cutting a big pine tree with it and the first one was a little shaky but after no time at all I was just smoking 'em.  We still don't use it on really nice big hardwood but with enough skill I think you probably could just do that also.   The thing has been a pleasant revelation on a lot of things.... It does better on hillsides than I thought it would, it waddles around in the rocks better than I thought it would, you can stack with it, sort logs decently, you can run it all freaking day and "maybe" burn 10 gallons of fuel. 

A lot of it is that give and take thing.   How big of an operator do you want to be?   Talk of 20K upgrades and undercarriages and stuff.... a Bell barely even costs 20k  !    Your probably looking at 4 gallons burned for every 1 with a big tracked buncher.   I think one of my strengths as well as one of my weaknesses is that I don't think big.   I think small.   You start slinging around 100K machines and 20K upgrades and 8 loads a week and all that and I just get very uncomfortable quick.   I don't do debt personally and when your kicking butt and putting out all these loads and all of a sudden the mill shuts you down (or simply SHUTS down... we've had that happen) or the X market goes downhill or you have trouble lining up another job right away.   So I don't know...  thinking small might hold you back on the one hand but it also keeps you from getting your head taken off but forces outside of your control that you didn't plan for.   

Plus you know how logging goes.   You can wheel and deal machinery.   It might not be a terrible idea to consider getting a Bell or something to "stick your toe in the water"    There's no law that says you couldn't flip it after awhile or trade it in.   I look at videos of Rolley Risley heads and all that and daydream myself but I'm not sure I could ever see myself actually putting out the money to go that crazy.   Its not just the initial cost of acquisition that intimidates me personally but the cost of operation.    The wood your cutting isn't magically worth more after you put a $5000 new pump on your buncher or a $7500 new valve bank. 

I was sitting on a trailer with the guy I bought my Bell from and he told me if you run a Bell I can guarantee you'll make money.   If you buy a big tracked feller buncher you are not guaranteed to make money.   You actually may do better.... but you may not.   I'm not sure if that quite rises to the "words of wisdom" level or not but that has stuck with me.     

[danbuendgen]

Thanks for all the advise so far. Just to make this clear for people: I DON'T WANT A FELLER BUNCHER. I'm wanting a harvester for a cut to length operation. The only Bell machines I have seen are just bunchers, but maybe some have a processing head. I don't know.
I think a wheeled harvester would better suit my needs. In any bigger timber I plan to just cut it by hand with a chain saw and buck it up for the forwarder. Or if the forwarder can't get to it, that's what my 240 is for. I know finding an older harvester that wont have a ton of issues will be a needle in a hay stack. Most of the ones I have looked at were very beat up and hammered on and are 100k or more. I would like to find one for less. I picked up my forwarder for 22k and it has a few little issues, but overall I feel like it was a steal. All the major repairs have recently been done by the last owner. So I think with some patience I hope to find a decent harvester when the time comes.

[1270d]

I have run only wheeled ctl machines.  Very limited experience operating tracked machines.   I have worked alongside and behind a timbco and now timber pro leveling bunchers.   

I quite often cut stuff with my wheeled harvester that the leveling tracked machine can't get.  Whether because of wet/soft ground, rock bluffs or long reach.   The fixed head/tracked stuff is powerful and a bit cheaper than dangle/rubber tire harvesters. 

Probably what you look at would depend on your personality and operating  style.   If you embrace technology and all the advantages and headaches that come with it go with a rubber tired dangle head.  If simple mechanical type machines with minimal electronics suits you, look at the tracked stuff with a fixed head.

Machines on rubber are much more comfortable and harvesters don't go through tires or bogie parts very often.  I have never done a tire on a harvester in close to 15000 hours.  Some day it will hhappen of course.

2006-2009 1270's with 15k or so hours are not too much over 100k right now which seems like a deal for the machine you are getting.

You'll be giving up some of the ability to just say bag it I'm going home, but have ac in the summer, heat in the winter and a safer work environment.   Still can hand cut the big stuff to keep that part of you happy.

[wannaergo]

I'll second all that was said about the rubber tired machines. Ponsse in Rhinelander has stacks of used ergos that you could get for a song right now...

[Corley5]

I have a love hate relationship with my Fabtek 133 and 4 roller head.  That's all I've got to say  ;D

[danbuendgen]

I should be on my way to work, but instead I'm reading this and looking at some Rottne Harvesters. There are a few online under 50-60k in the era of my forwarder. Here are a few I looked at:

https://forestryequipmentsales.com/20/HarvestersProcessors/3751/2001-Rottne-SMV-Harvester.html

https://forestryequipmentsales.com/20/HarvestersProcessors/1436/Rottne-Rapid-SMV-Harvester-SOLD.html
This one sold, but gives me an idea of whats out there...

https://forestryequipmentsales.com/20/HarvestersProcessors/2773/Rottne-SMV-Rapid-EGS-Harvester.html

http://www.lumbermenonline.com/for-sale/1995-Rottne-SMV-Harvesters-and-Processors?itemid=35795

I like the look of the last one, but its in NC.
How many forwarder loads can a decent operator cut in a day with one of these machines? How big of trees can they handle? I cut a lot of hardwood, but also pine, hemlock, and spruce. Like I said, I don't mind getting out and hand cutting anything too big for a harvester. I still want to get some exercise here and there, I don't want to get too fat! Mostly it would be for all the low grade crap. I feel like I could cut on rain days, or when the ground conditions are wet, and when things dry out, forward out all the cut wood. I would hope that getting more mechanized would extend my operating days per year and be able to work longer hours, and make my job much safer overall.

[snowstorm]

the one that sold was in your backyard....almost the one you said was in nc is not its up here

[Ed_K]

 The hills of Vt. are not something I'd want to run a wheeled machine on  ;D .

[danbuendgen]

the one that sold was in your backyard....almost the one you said was in nc is not its up here

Hmmm, for some reason I thought I saw it was from NC. I guess not.

[snowstorm]

i worked on that machine. its not far from here. this is how bethl equipment works they find a machine on say craigs list contact the owner saying i think i know someone that would be interested. next thing you know its on there website for sale. forestry equip sales isnt much different. i was talking with someone that listed a machine with them. he wanted 50k they listed it at 65k if they sold it they make 15k. not bad for a internet ad

[snowstorm]

The hills of Vt. are not something I'd want to run a wheeled machine on  ;D .

i have worked on hills that i had the load the forwarder going down the hill. going up you couldn't keep the wood on

[MUDDY]

One thing I would keep in mind is where are the majority of your jobs located. Somewhat residential or in the sticks?  Large sales or small? Nothing against you guys running rubber tires and dangle heads,  I think they're awesome machines.  But around here on small lots with lots of property lines, overhead lines, etc,  a big machine just really isn't that practical.  Plus with a fixed head and tracks it is much easier to fix ruts, spread gravel to make an approach for a landing, etc.

[chevytaHOE5674]

But around here on small lots with lots of property lines, overhead lines, etc,  a big machine just really isn't that practical

Job I'm on now is a bunch of 10-20 acre units with two sets of high voltage transmission lines going through them. So there are lots of property lines and wires to worry about and I have no trouble putting the trees within the sale boundary and getting them out from around the wires, just takes some cleaver maneuvering and cutting.

Assuming your talking about a fixed head machine on an excavator chassis that has a blade for doing dirt work? That is what a dozer or your forwarder are for.

[Ken]

I went down the road of buying a well used, high hours harvester (tracked with dangle head) for my first one.  I learned a great deal about cutting with a harvester and the associated break downs that come along with it.  After 3 years I upgraded to a new machine and have had much better luck.  If you are mechanically inclined and have good dealer support it can certainly be done.   Just be prepared to have a significant amount of head scratching days/nights.

[danbuendgen]

One thing I would keep in mind is where are the majority of your jobs located. Somewhat residential or in the sticks?  Large sales or small? Nothing against you guys running rubber tires and dangle heads,  I think they're awesome machines.  But around here on small lots with lots of property lines, overhead lines, etc,  a big machine just really isn't that practical.  Plus with a fixed head and tracks it is much easier to fix ruts, spread gravel to make an approach for a landing, etc.

Every job is different. Some are large, some are small. I spread gravel with the skidder blade. Or if a landing needs to be built, I hire a buddy of mine who does dirt work for a living. I don't often have much issues with ruts on my jobs. I pack the main trails in with brush, or corduroy bad areas, that does a good job keeping the mud at bay. The landing however can get nasty quick in the fall, but again, I just back drag it with the skidder.

Currently both the skidder and forwarder need some work and tlc projects. Skidder needs pin work, front tires and chains, and the brakes don't hold that well. Not sure on everything the forwarder needs, but I just changed out the gear oil out in the transfer case, and a ton of metal shavings came out... My hands looked like they were covered in sliver glitter. Any idea what it would cost to rebuild a Rottne transfer case? I also changed out the crane base oil, and it was full of water.... I should probably hold off on a harvester for a little bit and try to get one for next year. Or once I get a handle on the equipment I have now. Meanwhile, I want to learn more about harvesters and when I'm ready to buy, I know what I'm in for.

I have heard guys say to buy a machine with a head you like, because switching heads is expensive and kind of a pain. What heads do you ctl guys like? Are there any brands to stay away from? What have people had good luck with? Do some work better in softwood rather then in hardwood?

Thanks to everyone for the advice.

[danbuendgen]

Just be prepared to have a significant amount of head scratching days/nights.

I hear ya, that's where I'm at now! My skidder is almost 40 years old. Who knows the hours on it. And the forwarder is a 95 with 22,xxx hours...
Do you feel like the higher monthly payment is cheaper in the long run, because of less downtime? I'm sure it must be, or no one would do it. I'm just afraid of big payments, then having brake downs on top of it.

[Corley5]

AIS in Williamsburg, Mi has a 415 Timbco with a Slingshot head.  Not much in the way of electronics on them 8) and they do work 

[Ken]

Do you feel like the higher monthly payment is cheaper in the long run, because of less downtime? I'm sure it must be, or no one would do it. I'm just afraid of big payments, then having brake downs on top of it.

I was told by some wise people that if you can afford to run old you can afford to run new.  I would sure like to justify a new or much newer forwarder ( mine has 39000+ hours) but the harvester is the key machine.  Wood on the ground is like money in the bank (almost)

[Woodhauler]

I would buy new or a newer one! I learned my lesson years ago when I bought my first truck! One used truck was all I needed to work 20hours a day!! 15hours hauling and wrenching the rest! I would lots rather pay a bigger payment then work on things. With the pulp market the way it is you should be able to find a nice newer harvester for fair money.

[snowstorm]

a new ctl machine would be 5 to 600k. anyone just starting out would have a hard time paying for it. find a good used machine and you have to be able to work on it yourself

[danbuendgen]

a new ctl machine would be 5 to 600k. anyone just starting out would have a hard time paying for it. find a good used machine and you have to be able to work on it yourself

That was my impression as well. I look at used harvesters with low hours and they are 300k. I work alone, I can only operate one machine at a time. So doubt I would be able to produce enough wood for those type of payments. Honestly, if a lender looked at my taxes, they would laugh at me trying to borrow that kind of money! If I had a guy to partner up with, and we could operate 10 hours 5 or 6 days a week I think that would be possible.

I just talked with a logger the other day with a cut to length crew with new equipment (2 forwarders and one harvester, and a log truck and pup) and they need to operate from 5am to 5pm 6 days per week to keep the ball rolling... The truck starts at 3am and goes until 5pm, 7 days a week, and still can't keep up with them. If that what it takes to make those payments count me out. I love to work, and I like to log, but I don't like it that much. You only live once, I would like to have time to make it home for dinner, hunt, fish, and take the dog for a walk!

[bushmechanic]

Danbuenden we bought a used 2000 Rottne SMV EGS harvester last fall as a spare machine, just like the third one you looked at. It has been a pretty reliable machine, has the Deere engine and Logmax 5000 head on it. That year of logmax has a simple computer system on it, 25 wire cable with one wire to one function, not to hard to troubleshoot. We also have a 2003 Timberjack 1070 harvester, a lot more complex with the computer systems but it has a 5.9 liter Cummins in it and is dirt cheap on fuel. If you buy old you better get used to using your multimeter... a lot! :D   

[snowstorm]

25 wires is simple? mine has 6 very rarely do i have trouble with unless i rotate the head enought to wrap the hoses and it pulls one of the wires out of the conector

[danbuendgen]

If you buy old you better get used to using your multimeter... a lot!

Yep, picked up a good one when I got the Rottne. We keep it and a test light in the cab, along with wrenches, random wiring connectors, spare fuses, you get the idea. I don't have a clue how to operate half of the settings on the multi-meter, but it has been helpful. So far we have changed out a hand full of chafed wires, bad grounds and corroded fuses. But nothing too bad.

[snowstorm]

If you buy old you better get used to using your multimeter... a lot!

Yep, picked up a good one when I got the Rottne. We keep it and a test light in the cab, along with wrenches, random wiring connectors, spare fuses, you get the idea. I don't have a clue how to operate half of the settings on the multi-meter, but it has been helpful. So far we have changed out a hand full of chafed wires, bad grounds and corroded fuses. But nothing too bad.  volks wagen fuses . there are also another fuse panel to the left of the radio

[Clark]

I was told by some wise people that if you can afford to run old you can afford to run new.  I would sure like to justify a new or much newer forwarder ( mine has 39000+ hours) but the harvester is the key machine.  Wood on the ground is like money in the bank (almost)

I have no clue how it pencils out with such large investments for relatively small operations. I was once told, and am inclined to believe, that when looking at large investments like this you need to look at what it costs you to run the machine every hour. So the used machine costs you less but you have more maintenance/replacement costs (and slightly fewer hours while it is being repaired). The new machine won't have the replacement issues but will cost you more.

It's a very complicated problem and one that certainly requires you to pencil out more than two options.

Clark

[1270d]

Down time will pile up in a hurry when equipment starts to age.   I had over 200 hours noted the last year I ran my 1270 and close to 20k in parts.  This only included breakdown repairs such as welding or replacing defective cylinders motors electronics etc.   Not included was all regular maintenance stuff like oil changes, greasing, adding oil changing filters fueling chain grinding....on and on.    This machine had a bit under 13k hours at the time.     

[AlexHart]

"I have no clue how it pencils out with such large investments for relatively small operations."

I think it pencils out to not working frankly if your not going to go the route of hiring guys and really staring a "real" operation.   I know and have observed a few people that either have, or attempted to move up into the big equipment range and mentally thinking through I think in my sphere of contacts its running about 4 for 11.   And of the 4 successes 1 is very savy and had some fairly serious money to start with and another has a fairly unique arrangement (that somebody else starting out would not have) that somewhat provides limitless work.   

This is of course just my casual (but interested) observations and I'm sure I only see a small part of the whole story.  Debt and unforeseen problems/bad luck is perhaps not surprisingly what was the common theme of downfall amongst the non-successes.   And one of those (a good friend) I would say kind of learned some lessons, hung in there, regrouped, and is kind of climbing back up the ladder again.    But yeah.... when things were going bad for him lets just say he had no time to walk the dog, hunt, fish, get home regularly for dinner or even literally to attend family Christmas.   He told me that was the day when it finally came to him he made a bad move when he was out struggling in the mud on Christmas morning.   

I also think this varies by region quite a bit though.   I watch youtube channels of some guys working out in the Midwest and South and I think things are just simply different out there than New England.   I'm drawing the conclusion that out there its a better move to go big.   Its all very interesting at any rate.   

[danbuendgen]

This post I started is making me like my chainsaws more then ever. What I need is to find a guy with a harvester for hire to blow out all the low grade wood on my job, and I can hand cut everything else.

For a person with low capital (like me) new mechanized logging equipment is not the solution to the low grade issue. I worked for a logging company making peanuts, hand cutting and running cable skidder. During that time, I lived on rice and beans saving up for a skidder of my own. I got it and started out on my own, it has been a uphill struggle ever since. I went into business with nothing and I'm maintaining with little money. Now I have a skidder, forwarder, two work trucks, a splitter, and a ton of tools and saws. Honestly, I think I had more money in the bank when I worked for someone else.... Can someone remind me why I'm doing this again? I just worked from 6am to 6:30pm just so I could make my payments.... Oh well, at least I like to run my own equipment, and slay trees all day long...... Better then having co-workers!

[Corley5]

Being independent is worth a lot    I'd have a real hard time working for someone else now.

[Big Rooster]

So I have been going through this almost same scenario.  I've never purchased new and have shopped for years for late models that were in mint condition.  I have made this route work and been profitable all the same competing both against the big guys and the small guys.  We hand saw a lot but also subcontract the feller bunching occasionally on the low grade wood etc.  I'd been looking for a harvester for several years with a $150K budget in mind.  Now to some this sounds like a lot but for $150K your still getting a high hour machine that is gonna take a lot of TLC.  I made an offer on one in December .......a Deere 759G with waratah 470 but took the Deere mechanic and found about $55K in work orders and that was still with a 12,000 hour machine with original engine, pumps, and finals.  The $55K was just to tune other things up like the leveling table and the head.  I would guess a person is going to spend $20K to $50K a year on repairs.  The measuring system alone if it blinked out was a $30K upgrade.....utter insanity and this was an 2006 model not exactly ancient.

Anyhow to sum up I still have not found a harvester but did purchase a directional felling head (dangle style) for my already owned hitachi 135.  It cuts 20" efficiently and lays them down quick.  Around 40% ground it becomes a pain in the butt with swing power but on all the gentler stuff it rocks.  The head was new at $40K and is super simple and very stout....it is made by Ryans.  They also have a larger head.  A large excavator is cheap probably 60% less in cost then a harvester.  Plus we have ours on a coupler (takes about 1/2 hour) and then we can throw on the buckets or brush rake.

Anyhow just my 2 cents.

[Big Rooster]

So I have been going through this almost same scenario.  I've never purchased new and have shopped for years for late models that were in mint condition.  I have made this route work and been profitable all the same competing both against the big guys and the small guys.  We hand saw a lot but also subcontract the feller bunching occasionally on the low grade wood etc.  I'd been looking for a harvester for several years with a $150K budget in mind.  Now to some this sounds like a lot but for $150K your still getting a high hour machine that is gonna take a lot of TLC.  I made an offer on one in December .......a Deere 759G with waratah 470 but took the Deere mechanic and found about $55K in work orders and that was still with a 12,000 hour machine with original engine, pumps, and finals.  The $55K was just to tune other things up like the leveling table and the head.  I would guess a person is going to spend $20K to $50K a year on repairs.  The measuring system alone if it blinked out was a $30K upgrade.....utter insanity and this was an 2006 model not exactly ancient.

Anyhow to sum up I still have not found a harvester but did purchase a directional felling head (dangle style) for my already owned hitachi 135.  It cuts 20" efficiently and lays them down quick.  Around 40% ground it becomes a pain in the butt with swing power but on all the gentler stuff it rocks.  The head was new at $40K and is super simple and very stout....it is made by Ryans.  They also have a larger head.  A large excavator is cheap probably 60% less in cost then a harvester.  Plus we have ours on a coupler (takes about 1/2 hour) and then we can throw on the buckets or brush rake.

Anyhow just my 2 cents.

[so il logger]

I just worked from 6am to 6:30pm just so I could make my payments....

Your logging now buddy...

[BurkettvilleBob]

I work on home construction, so my equipment is less costly, but the daily struggle is something that comes with self employment in general. I asked a friend of mine that runs a large logging outfit if the stress of a big crew was financially worthwhile. He replied that he might not necessarily be making a proportionately larger amount, but it allowed him to get more work directly from the mill. Again though, regardless of trade the issue always exists, more employees and equipment may get you bigger jobs, but your overhead and stress level is bound to increase as well.

That's the gamble, it could work out great and you could make considerably more money, or you could fall on you face. Are you happy now, is the risk worth the reward?

I think farming out low grade timber to someone else with a buncher sounds more appealing. You're only thirty, give it a few years. Maybe someone will find a use for low grade and markets will improve. Also do you really want two high hour machines, you're probably just starting to work the bugs out of your forwarder.

Just another opinion from a fellow New Englander.

[danbuendgen]

you're probably just starting to work the bugs out of your forwarder.

Yep, working out the bugs, but I have a feeling the bugs will keep showing up... You get what you pay for that's for sure. But honestly older equipment is more my style. I like the old "Star Wars" look in equipment. And working alone, I will never be able to produce enough for that shinny equipment. And I don't want employees anyways. Even if I could find good help, I can't figure out how to pay good help a living wage, and pay workers comp on top of it... Not sure how those big outfits do it....

[Ed_K]

 Paying a living wage to good employee's and paying workers comp is what stopped me. I believe in my area,if you want to have the CTL equipment you better have a working relationship with a mill. If you don't the bigger outfits will get the quotas before you. I have " 0 " on soft wood and hard wood pulp right now. Only thing I could ship is hard wood saw logs and veneer. I shut down for this reason and being sick helped make the decision.
I have in the past checked around my area for subcontract feller buncher, at the time it was like $1100. a day plus fuel, I didn't have the $ or a banker to give me a line of credit.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Paying a guys wages and insurance is done by producing more wood. A 2 man crew with even a halfway decent machine can knock out 20+ cord a day without breaking a sweat. Even with the worn out machine I run cutting decent hardwood I've been processing ~30-40 cord of wood in an 8 hour day. That's with some breakdowns and maintenance in the mix. 

[BurkettvilleBob]

A 1982 hydro axe with a dangle head just popped up on the Maine Craigslist, I've never seen one with a head like that on it. It's probably not that good on steep ground, but it's pretty simple and for 15,000, it's certainly cheap.

[danbuendgen]

I just checked out that machine. Someone took some terrible pictures of it. But from what I can see, it doesn't look smashed up and has good paint. Never seen one with a dangle head before. I bet it would suck on hills. Cheap though.

[Gary_C]

I just looked at that machine for curiosity because I had a Hydroax and also the same Valmet dangle head they have attached to that machine. Interesting machine in a curious sort of way but I would guess it's worth at least $50 per ton and not much more.

That 4-wheel Hydroax machine is no where big enough to handle any cutting head on a boom. Even with a fixed bar saw head on short arms, you could easily lift the rear wheels right off the ground and that is with the head right in front of you. With the boom off to the side, you'd have to expect to flop over all the time. But not to worry, side flips do not do much damage. They can be flipped back on the wheels if you have a skidder nearby without much damage.  :

I also had a Valmet 546 harvester (6-wheeled with tracks) with that 965 head and I cut hundreds of cords with that machine. It took a lot of fixing as the head was a second generation dangle head that had some issues. Among other issues, it could eat a hose a day so you'd better carry spares for critical hoses that took a beating.

I actually did what you are considering doing. I cut with a chain saw, then when to a 311B Hydroax and then a Valmet 546 Harvester, all as a one man operation with occasional help. I now have a Ponsse Ergo Harvester and a Valmet 840 Forwarder and do all my own hauling to the mill. So it can be done with careful equipment selection and a lot of hard work and long days. For probably ten years I was working continuously except for a day or two at home on occasional weekends. Doubt I could do it over but I'm getting a little too old to work that hard again. And then there's going to be the inevitable disasters you have to work through.  : 

[AlexHart]

I think one of the endearing things about logging, assuming your the kind of sick twisted individual to be into this kind of stuff like most of us are, is what basically ends up being a lifelong (or at least career long) quest to tailor your arsenal of equipment to suite your needs, size, terrain, dreams, etc.   I play acoustic guitars and the word for it in those circles is GAS (guitar acquisition syndrome)   I guess you'd need to slightly alter the acronym a bit but logging takes GAS to a whole nother level with a lot more zeros on the end.   

There isn't any one size fits all, no "right" answer for everybody, and then of course you have to do the balancing act when the wants are a round peg, and the checkbook is a square hole.   

At least for me it is one part of the job that kind of stays fun and interesting.   Its a big world out there and there is a lot of junk iron in it.   We currently have some skidders, a Bell, big skid steers for stacking, and a log truck in the arsenal and are contemplating/planning/researching some kind of landing loader/slasher and perhaps a whole tree chipper mixed in there (I was thinking we might be able to figure out a deal where the landing loader can load the chipper if we play our cards right).   Anything to launch a few more hydraulic hoses.   

[snowstorm]

looking at that hydro ax on cl. its looks like the same place i looked at a 911 several yrs ago. even looks like the same head because of the extra oil thank made from some pipe. it seems the oil pump didnt work so he made a drip system. weather that swing boom is factory dont know. 30 odd yrs ago cb in bangor had several big hydro ax that did have a factory swing boom with a large fixed mount shear

[danbuendgen]

I think for the terrain that I work on a Hydro ax would not be a good fit. That would make a good start up machine for someone though. At this point, I have enough head aches, not sure I want to tackle a harvester as soon as I originally thought. I have been talking with a ton of local loggers and harvesters seem more expensive and higher maintenance then I ever imagined.

However, if I'm going to say logging, I will need to get one. I feel like I've 3 options, 1, quit logging (which I don't want to do, it's the only thing I know) 2, buy a harvester, 3, find someone with a harvester, and team up on jobs.

Anyone in south east Vermont what to team up logging? We stay as separate contractors, I don't want a partnership. I own my forwarder, you own your harvester, we are each responsible for our own machines, maintenance, brake downs, ect. And we split the money. PM me if anyone is interested.

Thanks to all who have responded so far.

[BargeMonkey]

 You call that # that I PM you ??? That's a decent machine for the money and might be a good start out harvester.
The problem I've found with more "mechanical" is yeah you put out more wood and can do more work but it just feeds the monster. More tools, now your forwarder will work harder, the markets suck for low grade right now, I looked at a 620E in PA with a dangle head before the divorce got bad and your still almost 100k bucks for a 10k hr machine. I know a guy who cuts 2-3mil ft of wood not that far from you with a forwarder, dozer and barsaw buncher. Personally don't knock an older cheaper buncher, less issues and if you've got someone to work with you can still pound the wood out, if I'm patient I can limb 80% right from the cab and slash tops.

[danbuendgen]

No, I have not looked into that machine at all, and he also PMed me about it. I don't feel like I want to take on one more payments now. Right now, I want to listen and learn about harvesters so when its time, I know what I want. The low grade markets are lousy, and I have enough payments now. I'm on a job now with a bit of hemlock pulp and pine pulp, and I can't get rid of it. Well I know of one place for the hemlock pulp, and after trucking, there is no money. It might pay it's way out of the woods, but I wont pocket anything. So I'm leaving it in the woods. Some of it I'm saving for poles, If I need some when it gets wet. I just looked into financing, just in case I find a machine I want, and the lender said my debt to income ratio is no good now for another equipment loan. I owe on my house, forwarder, both work trucks, and there is always a few hundred on the credit card. I think I want to ditch the credit card. I have enough loans out to build credit with. It's too dangerous right now...........

Thanks to everyone for all the help. I have gotten a TON of PMs about my "new to me" forwarder. Folks trying to help out, asking how it's going, and giving advice and telling me about there experiences. Instead of PMing everyone every night, all night long, I think I will take some pictures of my projects that I'm working on and post what I'm up too instead of PMing everyone constantly. Stay tuned.....

[Ed_K]

 Don't ditch the c/c pay them off and just hold on to them. My banker advised us to do the same, you'll keep your rating up. If you dump them the credit agency's will drop your rating as if you were to get them pulled on you.

[danbuendgen]

Don't ditch the c/c pay them off and just hold on to them. My banker advised us to do the same, you'll keep your rating up. If you dump them the credit agency's will drop your rating as if you were to get them pulled on you.

Good advice. I guess that I'll buy a cup of coffee once a month and pay that off. And keep it at that level. I just fear needing money and having a credit card around....

[Puffergas]

I got a new c/c through my credit union and then wanted to ditch the old one but the credit union said that that was a bad idea. Now I'm stuck with two.......... they also wanted to know why I don't have a ton of loans........ they said that is also bad........ I can't do anything right according to the money people.. 😯

[AlexHart]

Good for you.   Pay off your other stuff and just roll with what you have for awhile.   IMHO it may not seem like the glamorous choice but its probably the right one.   Not taking quite as many steps forward is way better than taking a bunch of steps backwards.   You'll get there eventually.

I'm sure there are a few logging vets around here that would agree.   

[BargeMonkey]

 The guy with the big cat processor is working out back of me again, it looks great till something breaks and he scrambles to get parts from where ever in the country sent asap, I'm willing to bet this guy is 25K a month to Milton Cat, there's no fun in cutting wood like that being under the gun all the time and by the time it's paid for its 3/4 worn out.
The girl who runs my local bank explained that they want to see 30-40% use on a card every month especially on a business card, not maxed but revolving credit. I've had great luck with capital one, everyone speaks english and they are great on fraud protection.

[snowstorm]

one of the most important thing you younger guys should do is keep your credit rating up way up

[danbuendgen]

Why is the CC rating so much more important then other types of credit? Like a mortgage or auto loans, band loans,equipment loans, ect? I knew CCs were important, but I had no idea that getting rid of one made it look worse. Guess I will keep the evil thing around if it helps out so much, and try to keep it in the 30-40% range of my card limit. Thanks for the advice.

[Puffergas]

How come if ya go bankrupt they will work with to get ya back in the saddle. But if you pay all your bills and don't barrow they don't want anything to do with you. Or kind a like that.

[danbuendgen]

What bothers me, is the people who don't work, and chose not to work, get welfare no problem. But someone who works, and pays taxes, but could use a little help to get out of a tough spot, can't get any help.
A few years ago, I had a few large repairs to do right before mud season, that almost drained my bank account of the money we had saved up for living off during mud season. So we applied for food stamps, just to help us through a month or two of little work, until logging started back up. We did not qualify. They don't care about your current situation if you are self employed. They just want to see last years taxes. Oh and they don't count deprecation either.

What bothers me ever more, is the junkies around here. The problem gets worse and worse. They spend all there money on drugs, they don't work, there on welfare, and they steal from anyone. I just moved over to a new job site. With a landing within site of the town road, the first night, someone drained the fuel out of the skidder, and a few things were stolen out of it. Like Gas and oil jugs, files, a new saw chain, my choker poker, saw wrench, and some wedges. I know it had to be junkies, because there have been a lot of break ins in the neighborhood. We reported it to the police (what a joke), and they can't really do anything, or try to keep an eye on the landing at night or anything. One cop told me, "Well you can't blame them, they don't have any money, and you can afford all this logging equipment." I wanted to strangle him!! I screamed I can't afford to have people steal from me, and those F'in junkies spend all there money on drugs! But they don't care, it's like they don't even want to help you. The cops gave me the impression that it's my fault for leaving things unattended, or my fault for not locking things up. So I keep a wildlife camera on the job. Maybe if someone comes again, it can get a plate number, and I'll find them myself. And take care of it on my own. I was thinking of getting a cheap electric fence charger, and alligator clipping it to the equipment at night. Maybe a SHOCK would keep those junkies away.....

[thecfarm]

danbuendgen, : 
My Father knew of someone that was on welfare. He use to tell my Father,Oh they have plenty of money,they work.  :
Not to get this thread going the wrong way,but with all the giveaways,food stamps,insurance,fuel assitance,if a working guy is not making $13 an hour,and gas to travel to a job,than they are making more than he is.

[BargeMonkey]

 There was an article in the Albany Times Union a few months ago that a family on the full package from the state / government was equal to a 48kyr job, I know some struggling parents at home with kids who barely make that combined. Friend of mine just had a guy lift some steel for scrap off his farm in daylight, on camera and the cops could have cared less. The system is rigged and hard working people in the middle who are just making it are the ones who get screwed. I will say there are jobs out there for people but not enough people actually want to work, my parents had some trouble finding new qualified truck drivers who could pass the insurance company and backround check, had 1 guy apply and found out he was on disability and was trying to double dip. Didn't go over to well.

[Ed_K]

 The only thing that's more important than c/cards is paying bills on time. I have c/cards that I only use for emergencies, I use them for small purchases once ever 6 months just to keep them open.

[danbuendgen]

Not to get this thread going the wrong way

That's OK. A lot of topics have been covered in this thread so far.. Harvesters, logging woes, credit cards, and now welfare bums who don't want to work. And junkies who steal from hard working folks....
What's next?

[Puffergas]

Not to get this thread going the wrong way

That's OK. A lot of topics have been covered in this thread so far.. Harvesters, logging woes, credit cards, and now welfare bums who don't want to work. And junkies who steal from hard working folks....
What's next?

Alien abductions, worse yet.

How about some kind of sawmill operation during mud season?

[danbuendgen]

[/quote]
Alien abductions, worse yet.

How about some kind of sawmill operation during mud season?
[/quote]

Oh boy, lets not go down that rabbit hole, but I have been watching a lot of David Icke videos (and others) on youtube. Very entertaining, informative, borderline depressing and infuriating. Good to watch for anyone who want's to know whats really going on out there behind the scenes.....

We do a lot of firewood during mud season. I try to pile it up all winter, and we (me and my wife) split as much as possible, then sell it this time of year for seasoned wood. So far this month, we cut a truck and pup of pine (on quota) and finish out the rest of the week selling seasoned wood. Pays the bills ok, lots of it's in cash, and it splits up the monotony of chopping and skidding everyday.

[ETHURSTON]

The hills of Vt. are not something I'd want to run a wheeled machine on  ;D .

I run a wheeled harvester in VT. You can go anywhere a tracked machine can, as long as you have tracks and tire chains. A disadvantage to smaller tracked machine harvester is that you cannot cut downhill very easily as the machine will try to tip over. When cutting some hills with a dangle head it is much nicer to cut down hill. Most wheeled machines have a leveling crane base to give you plenty of swing power and cut both up hill and down hill.

[danbuendgen]

This is good advice. Thanks for the info and getting the thread back on track! I have decided when I make the move for a harvester, I want a Rottne 6 wheeler. I'm not against other brands of equipment, but I have the SMV now, so may has well have 2 similar machines that I can learn to know well.

[chevytaHOE5674]

When you get to the point of a harvester I would look for an 8 wheel machine over a 6W. You get more stability, traction and better flotation. In steep ground the 8W will climb better and be more stable when reaching off to the sides for trees. Only downsides with an 8 wheeler are 2 extra tires and a little bit of a reduced turning radius.

[danbuendgen]

That is true about the 6 vs 8 wheels. 8 is better traction and stability, 6 seems a little more maneuverable, and less tires to keep going. However, my SMV has original tires on the rear and I bet at this rate, they could go another 10-20 years yet.

[1270d]

I don't think we've ever worn out a forwarder tire.   Damage in the tread can be repaired and when the sidewall is cut badly they get replaced. 

If you have an option get a machine with balanced bogie axle(s).  They offer superior traction over traditional bogies.   My current harvester has traditional bogies and I wish almost daily that we had gotten balanced.   Some say they do not work as good in wet ground conditions but I found the opposite to be true.   

Also I don't find the 8 wheeled harvester climbs any better than the 6.  My 1270 was configured with one balanced bogie and single axle rear.  Was always run with tracks and chains on the rear.   Scorpion has unbalanced bogies on both ends and eco tracks on both ends.

Eight is more stable, six is more maneuverable, climbs as good and better in deep snow.  Would still get another 8w though

[danbuendgen]

Could you explain the difference in the balanced bogies and regular? Or how to tell the difference? What does my Rottne use?

[1270d]

With a regular bogie the walking part of the axle is free floating on the main bearing at all times.   For example when there is a high load like climbing a hill if traction is good the front tire can lift up and you'll spin out.  Or if you pull or push something they can wheelie like this.   

A balanced bogie somehow has a certain pressure driving the forward tire(in the direction of travel) downward keeping both tires in contact with the ground.   This helps a lot for hill climbing and rough ground.   It is a 15k extra per axle option when ordering a new Ponsse.

In my experience the balanced will not have an outboard planetary set inside the wheel.  Regulars will have a planetary hub.

[1270d]

I think this doesn't matter as much on the trailer end of a forwarder due to the weight of the load holding all tires to the ground.   On the front axle and on harvesters they lift pretty easily

[danbuendgen]

How many forwarder loads can a average harvester operator cut in a day?

Been looking at some Timberpro forwarder, where the grapple bucket can be switched out for a dangle head. Seems like a good idea. Then only one machine is needed. Seems like a good way to go for a one person show. Anyone out there have a Timberpro that is doing this? How do you like it? I like the 360 cab and crane swinging together. Very good design it seems.

[Ken]

How many forwarder loads can a average harvester operator cut in a day?

Been looking at some Timberpro forwarder, where the grapple bucket can be switched out for a dangle head. Seems like a good idea. Then only one machine is needed. Seems like a good way to go for a one person show. Anyone out there have a Timberpro that is doing this? How do you like it? I like the 360 cab and crane swinging together. Very good design it seems.

Number of forwarder loads depends on a lot of factors.  Size of forwarder, length of trail, quality of wood, harvester operator skill, etc, etc.  Ponsse also has marketed a dual machine.  Hasn't caught on largely I thing due to the fact that you are taking a $150-200K harvesting head off the machine to forward wood.  Hard to justify. 

[danbuendgen]

I understand there are many many factors in how many loads can get cut. I'm just looking for a rough average.

[wannaergo]

We almost bought a timberpro dual machine right when we started, but never pulled the trigger. The thing I don't like about them is that they are ginormous.  Also, visibility isn't great.  The downside to the ponsse dual is that the head is a tiny little thing. H5 I think. Wouldn't want to feed it a steady diet of hardwood. Ponsse makes a dang good machine though.

As to your production question, I would say most harvester operators like to put 8-10 forwarder loads on the ground per day. This depends a lot on the forwarder and harvester, but I have always wanted 10 a day. Our forwarder operator will put 6 cords on a load. I think the average operator will do around 40-50 cords a day.  That's in hardwood.

[danbuendgen]

Thanks wannaergo. That's just what I was wanting to know.

The Timberpro is a very large machine.

[barbender]

The Ponsse Duals are based on a Buffalo or BuffaloKing forwarder, I don't remember which. I haven't ran one personally, one of my friends ran one a bit and didn't care for it. With the forwarder crane , you don't have nearly as much swing power, and you end up processing over your bogeys (because the forwarder crane is set back at the end of the frame, a harvester crane is set out over the bogeys). One place they have seen some use is biomass harvesting with an "energy wood" shear head. But when natural gas prices got so low, it kind of killed the biomass market up here.

[BurkettvilleBob]

Just saw a listing on Craigslist in Westbrook, ME for two Rottne 2002 four wheeled processors, 25,000 for both. They aren't turn key obviously, but you'd think there must be way more value than that if one was to part them out, both have ctl heads, chains on all four tires...........

[danbuendgen]

I checked them out. They were teamed up with my Rapid before I picked it up. Those little harvesters are good in small soft wood. But even firewood is hard on them day in and day out. Good for someone thinning softwood all day long.