Solar...It's not a joke

[DouginUtah]

I thought there was already a topic on "Solar...it's a joke" but a search didn't turn up anything so I will go ahead with this.

Nanosolar's breakthrough technology is 10 times more powerful than a nuclear
reactor and cheaper, too

By Lawrence Solomon

"Go to YouTube and you can see a corporate video of a printing press running
at 100 feet per minute, applying a nanoparticle ink to foil and producing
solar cells. This machine is owned by Nanosolar Inc., which in turn is
partly owned by Sergey Brin and Larry Page, the founders of Google. This one
printing machine, Nanosolar claims, can produce solar cells with a capacity
of 1,000 MW per year, the equivalent of a nuclear reactor Indian Point
outside Manhattan or two nuclear reactors at Pickering outside Toronto.

Unlike nuclear reactors, which take a decade to build and billions of
dollars in capital costs before delivering a single kilowatt-hour to a home
or business, Nanosolar's breakthrough technology can help meet society's
power needs soon after its ink has dried, and the press's capital costs
amount to a mere $1.65-million. Put another way, we can wait 10 years to get
nuclear power up and running. Or, by relying on a single Nanosolar press, we
can have the solar equivalent of a major nuclear plant in one year, and the
equivalent of 10 major plants in a decade. Soon, says Nanosolar, its
printing presses will be operating much faster — perhaps 20 times faster.
Should this prove feasible, a single Nanosolar press would pump out in a
single decade the equivalent of 200 nuclear plants--far more than now exist
in all of North America."

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2008/06/23/here-comes-the-sun.aspx

[Sprucegum]

That's good news - we need more good news  8)

I thought I read somewhere that you don't need panels , this can be literally glued /taped to your roof.

[pineywoods]

Just in case no one noticed, the sun doesn't shine on my roof at night. So to provide power when I really need it, I need some batteries. Priced batteries lately ? : My freezer won't run on battery power, so I need a big inverter.  $$$$$  In about 5 years the batteries will be kaput, need replacing.  more $$$. What about all that lead and sulphuric acid , nasty stuff, not exactly green.. : Solar power has it's place, but it ain't no cure-all. I'll stick with the nukes

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

I think what you are remembering, Doug is a lot of the stuff which
was brought into the "Wind Power...what a Joke" thread.  Nanosolar
came into that discussion, too.

Good that you started this one separately, though.

[SwingOak]

I'm a big fan of solar energy. A few years ago, I put together a portable solar station for the wife for when she goes on her annual camping trip. I usually stay home & take care of the dogs...

It consists of a BP Solar 50 watt panel, and Morningstar 15 amp charge controller, and a 105 ah deep cycle marine battery. It has more than enough reserve to run a 12 volt fan all night in the tent, charge a cell phone, laptop, or whatever. We also have an inverter for it. I also use it to power my tree sprayer pump, and automatic electric trap thrower. From an 80% discharge, it will recharge fully during the day, even if it's cloudy.

I have a vision of going full solar at our place, primarily off grid but with a net metering system as backup. That way, I would sell any extra solar generation, and run on stored energy during non-daylight times. Also, the public utility power is always there in case of a system failure.

But there are too many trees in my neighbor's yard! Fortunately, their maple has verticillium wilt and maybe red thread too, a black walnut is in the way of an addition they want to build, and the ashes in the neighborhood are all dropping dead from what I suspect is a combination of anthracnose and drought. So, there's hope.

As far as battery life goes, it all depends on how you use them, and how you take care of them, but none of them last forever. But neither will coal, oil, natural gas, or a wind turbine. Everything will wear or run out sooner or later. At least batteries are recyclable. Spent nuclear fuel rods aren't.

[submarinesailor]

Spent nuclear fuel rods aren't.

Spent fuel rods are recyclable, it's just that our former peanut headed President Carter said no to it.  They do it all over the world.  Why not here?

Bruce

[ScottAR]

I ask because I don't know...

How does one recycle a fuel rod? 

Recycle into another fuel rod or into what?

What disadvantages are there that would make this illegal or at least
not practiced here?

[StorminN]

So to provide power when I really need it, I need some batteries. Priced batteries lately ? :

Priced nuclear plants lately? (The total cost, including government subsidies, insurance, waste disposal, etc.)

What about all that lead and sulphuric acid , nasty stuff, not exactly green.. : Solar power has it's place, but it ain't no cure-all. I'll stick with the nukes

True it's not a cure-all, but it works for tons of off-grid folks, so it can sure help the rest of us out a lot. Check out Germany sometime... they are utilizing solar PV more than most countries, and they get less sun per year than Seattle.

Me, I'd rather have lead-acid batteries in my basement than a nuke plant within 1,000 miles of my house. Oh wait, I already do!... twelve Trojan L-16 deep cycle batteries, that's about 1,450 lbs of lead and those babies last 8-11 years, even more if you've got a good desulphator and treat them right, FYI... and I bought them and the rest of the gear (5,500W sine wave inverter, 8kW diesel genny, control panels, etc. for $1,500 used... sounded reasonable to me!)

-Norm.

[Norm]

To each his own but I'll take the nuclear plant within a couple of hundred miles from me. We have one on each side of me and they don't pollute like the batteries that get thrown out every day leaching into the ground water. Recycle them, sounds great but unfortunately the majority do not do so.

Come on up Piney, we'll leave a light on for ya. ;D

[Jeff]

I may be talking out of ignorance, but if everyone was using solar technology and it was all plugged back into the grid, why would we need batteries?  We would reduce our need for energy to the point that the grid power that we are all accustomed to would then become the secondary alternative, back up energy source. The cloudy day power. The night time power. "The Grid" could be the battery.

[Ron Wenrich]

I may be answering you out of ignorance, as well.  The grid is a delivery system, not a storage system. 

They're going to do away with our caps on our electric bills.  Caps were put on when we went into deregulation.  We have loads of capacity in the state.  Lots of nukes, coal fired, hydro, wood fired, and natural gas.  Probably a few oil fired plants, as well.  Our costs are going to probably double.

Ok, lets say that the battery system is faulty and you don't really want to put in batteries.  You put up solar and that helps in level out the peak periods during the day.  That would help in the need to put up more power plants.  It also drains some of the monopoly out of the power companies.  I see that as a win for the consumer. 

Germany subsidizes their solar industry very heavily.  I don't think it is a good economic example of the technology. 

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

That is true.  The grid would be primarily needed at night.
Up until December 31, 2008, the US and the state of Georgia
are also heavily subsidizing.  The offer stands until then.  If
I spend the bucks, I get a tax credit between the two sources, totalling to over half the
cost of the system.  Limitations do apply.

Take a look at the fine print, however, in your state.

Georgia Power (part of the Southern Company) is a first come first served buyer of solar.  
Once they reach .2% of their peak demand, they are no longer bound to buy any more alternative energy
from other producers who are hooked into their grid.  POINT TWO PERCENT!   If i happen
to hook up after they reach their quota, any excess is just theirs, unless I disconnect.

As you can tell, I have been considering it, but the big boys are well protected against we
common folks.  Right now, the law in Georgia says they buy back at a rate of 17.4 cents
per kWhr which is not bad - about 60% of retail value.

[Fla._Deadheader]

I'm going to PO some of you.  >:( >:(

  Talking about Batteries not being good for the land or sky, then, what about TIRES ???

  Are they ALL recycled ???

  Everyone talks about the hybrid cars being so great. The Prius gets LESS MPG per tankful, than some of the compact cars ???

  I had an ORIGINAL Edison Battery Bank, that was Nickel-Iron technology. They were 60+ years old, when I used them as Battery power for my house in Ar.

  Pineywoods. I really enjoy your posts, and the info on the SOLAR kiln. Why did you go SOLAR ??? 

  Bottom line is, everyone feels ENTITLED to cheap power. Electricity, gasoline, Diesel, Batteries, Solar Panels.

  If y'all would stop talking and start buying, you would CUT dependence on some BIG BUSINESSES domonation.  : : :

  Down here, it WAS cheaper to buy electric. Price will nearly double SOON. Hourly wages for most Ticos is $1.40 for farm workers. They DO get benefits, like Fred's operation, but, you can't EAT benefits. How will THEY keep food cold and lights on ???

  I went through the same crap when I was trying to get things going, in the 70's. I was told, " I could take THAT cost, put it in the bank, and pay my light bill". My followup question was, Do you HAVE that price in your pocket or bank RIGHT NOW ???

  "Well, of course not".  : : : : : :

  Jeff is close to being in the ballpark, along with Ron. Problem is, night time. That's what makes WATER power so nice. Close the flow down to meet demand. Nuclear is great, BUT, non adjustable to load conditions.

  Funny, NO ONE has mentioned the nearly free price of Nuke fuel, paid for by the taxpayers  : : : : : : : :

[DanG]

There has been plenty of talk about nuke, and there will be plenty more, but this thread is about solar. :

I have a good friend who is running his home on PV cells.  He has a bank of batteries in the shed, has a small genset for backup, cooks with gas, heats with wood, and he built his house tall for convection cooling.  During the daytime when demand is low and production is high, he runs the pump to fill a large tank for watering the garden.  He also has a gravity feed tank in his attic for household water.  They seem to be doing quite well with that setup.

Doug, that nano solar technology is interesting.  I hope it pans out and will bring down the price of panels.  I have a 85x25 shed with a 10/12 roof right by the house that would be perfect for the installation. ;D

[Kcwoodbutcher]

There are other ways to store energy besides batteries. One that comes to mind is hydroelectric. Use the solar energy excess to pump water from a low reservoir to a high reservoir and then run generators at night. It's not 100% efficient but its cheap and durable. They are working on capacitors which will behave more like a battery. They can be cheap and very efficient and can charge very fast.

[farmerdoug]

Lead acid batteries are very recyclable.  Just because idiots choose to dump in the trash or along the road does not make them bad.

[Larry]

I've always been attracted to solar power...especially if it will keep a dollar in my pocket.  I've followed solar developments and they are all announced with great promise but seldom pan out.

So...were building a new house and it has been proclaimed heating hot water with the sun provides the quickest payback.  Put a watthour meter on our electric hot water heater to see how much it cost us.  For two old folks taking leisurely showers (most laundry is cold water) it cost's 12 dollars a month to run the hot water heater...at the power companies most expensive rate.  Payback for a solar hot water system was exactly...never.  I'm sure it would be different if we had kids at home, a hot tub, and swimming pool.

Guess I'm in the nuclear power generation camp.  When I'm shown a realistic way to save dollars with solar I will.

One thing I've thought about some is most power companies speak with forked tongues.  On one hand they encourage conservation...some even promote there green image by throwing dollars at windmills...wether they are efficient or not.  On the other hand they give deep discounts when you use a lot of power.  Why not do the reverse and make the first 1,000 kilowatts cheap?  After 1,000 kilowatts the rate would go way up...bet we wouldn't need any new power plants for a long time.

[pineywoods]

Hey, lots of good comments..... Just for the record, I have a solar dry kiln, and I'd go solar on the house if it was feasible to do so. Right now, the payback is never. Us ole retired po-boys can't afford that.  Been followin the nano cell subject with interest.  Just wonder what one of these southern hailstorms would do to that printed-on circuitry. Another bit of good news. There's a new battery technology under development by Catapillar. It's lead-acid but 3 to 5 times the capacity of current lead-acid batteries at close to the same price. That puts it in direct competition with lithium ion. Patience....Payback is gettin closer all the time...

[farmerdoug]

If they do get the solar cells out for a dollar a watt I will be definitly being putting them in here. 8)

We are net metering here so the meter can spin backwards during the day.

[Gordon]

At this time Delaware will pay 50% of the cost for  a solar or wind personal system. A two way (net metering) electric meter is put in and you sell the extra electric you generate back to the electric supplier in shares. No batteries to worry about.

http://www.awea.org/smallwind/delaware.html

Wind for me would be so-so acording to the map. Solar would take approx 8 years before I would break even on my investment. Something to think about. Not just cuz it's green but it might just be a pretty good return on investment.

http://www.delawaresolar.org/

Gordon

[StorminN]

To each his own but I'll take the nuclear plant within a couple of hundred miles from me. We have one on each side of me and they don't pollute like the batteries that get thrown out every day leaching into the ground water. Recycle them, sounds great but unfortunately the majority do not do so.

Sorry Norm, I still disagree. If you don't think nuke plants pollute, you should come out to eastern WA state and visit Hanford or Richland and talk to the folks there and see if they agree. Your point that lead batteries pollute might be true, but I'd be willing to bet more lead has been put into ground water over the years through bird shot and bullets than batteries... and with the price of lead scrap climbing, I bet you'll see way less batteries dumped anywhere...

Germany subsidizes their solar industry very heavily.  I don't think it is a good economic example of the technology.

You're right Ron, Germany does subsidize solar... but let's remember we heavily subsidize nuke and coal power here (and they did in Germany, too)... solar has traditionally had to "make it on its own", so this is just starting to level the playing field as far as subsidies go.


For those that say they "can't afford solar"...

If someone tried to sell you a phone and told you it cost $6,000... would you even consider buying it? What if they told you that you could make 1,000 minutes of calls on it every month for the next ten years... so you were in essence "pre-paying" for your phone and usage? Most people would still say they can't afford a phone like that... but then they won't think twice about paying $50 a month (or more) for their phone bill. If you pay this phone bill for 10 years, that's $6,000... so what's the difference?

Of course the difference is that the cost is spread out over 10 years... and that's exactly what some of the progressive solar folks are trying to do here... it's not subsidies, but financing... they are actually working on having the power companies finance the cost of the equipment... so you could have, say $30,000 worth of solar gear installed on your house, generate a good portion of the power you use, and pay a monthly cost to the power company (pay off the equipment) for the next xx number of years... it helps the power company by taking a load off their plants, and it produces power in a more distributed way. I for one would like to see it be as easy to borrow $30,000 to install a solar system as it is to borrow $30,000 to buy a car (ie., an energy gain vs. an energy drain)..

So with PV... think of it as pre-paying your power bill for the next 7 to 15 years or so (of course, it depends on how much power costs you now, how much it will go up in the next 7 to 15 years, how much you will use, how big a system you install, and how much sun you get at your site) You should also remember that most PV panels carry a 20 to 25 year warranty, (can you think of any other electronic device that even comes close to this?) and you'll see that the majority of your system (especially if you're grid-tied) has about zero maintenance and will be working 25 years from now (you can't truthfully say this about any wind turbine). I should also mention that the first PV panels built by Bell Labs over 50 years ago are still working.

Of course, I need to remind myself... like anything else, no one needs to buy new. I've bought used PV panels twice... the first time was a set of 55W Siemens panels for $2 a Watt, and the second time was a set 120W panels for $2.76 a Watt... both sets of panels are the high-quality, single crystal type... (not polycrystalline or amorphous) these prices are about 1/3 of new cost, so there are "deals" out there if you look...

-Norm.

[StorminN]

As long as we're talking solar incentives...

Here in the Pacific Northwest, we have big hydro, and consequently some of the cheapest electricity in the world... my county PUD charges us $0.06 per kWh. However, if you install a renewable energy system (and do it correctly), you can sell the power to the utility for much more.

Our breakdown for incentives here is as follows:

1. Federal tax credit - Everyone in the US is eligible for this, until December 31, 2008... basically it's a 30% tax credit on the cost of the equipment and installation, with a cap of $2,000 for residential and no cap for commercial. You can get $2,000 for a PV system and an additional $2,000 credit for a solar hot water system. Of course you have to owe taxes to use the credit.

2. Green tags - Bonneville Power and some of the other utilities will buy the "greenness" of the power you produce for $0.05 per kWh... and then sell "green energy" to other customers that don't have RE systems, at a premium price.

3. State sales tax exemption - There is no WA state sales tax charged on solar, wind, and fuel-cell systems.

4. Net metering - WA is a net-metering state, so the utilities must buy the power that your solar, wind or micro-hydro system (under 25kW rating) puts into the grid. Systems over 25kW negotiate co-generation contracts.

5. WA state production incentives - Our governor here (Christine Gregoire) has implemented incentives to encourage creating and keeping renewable energy jobs in our state. These incentives currently apply to solar PV and wind systems (not hydro... yet).
- If you install a system with components NOT made in WA state, you get $0.15 per kWh.
- If your inverter is made in WA state, you get $0.18 per kWh.
- If your PV panels are made in WA state, you get $0.36 per kWh.
- If BOTH your inverter and PV panels are made in WA state, you get $0.54 per kWh.
The production incentive is capped at $2,000 per year.

SO... if you do everything right, you can sell power to the grid all summer for $0.54 per kWh... and then you can buy it back all winter long (when we have little sun) for $.06 per kWh.

There are currently three inverter manufacturers in WA state... AFAIK, only one of them actually builds their grid-tie inverters here (Outback Power) so their inverters count towards the WA State production incentive. When Gregoire implemented these incentives, there was no PV panel manufacturer in-state... but in the past year, Outback has formed a company called Silicon Energy, and they are now making PV panels here in WA state... so I believe the incentives are working the way they were intended (jobs created in-state, distributed power created in-state)

-Norm.

[SwingOak]

Solar (PV) panels don't really go bad, or wear out. Some of the earliest panels ever made are still generating in excess of 85% of their original rated output.

I bought a BP solar panel because it had the highest efficiency rating of any 50 Watt panel on the market at the time. I was told that BP is moving away from making low wattage panels, and concentrating on the high output models.

BP says on their website that the average ROI for a PV system is seven years. Most utilities will buy net metered power at wholesale rates, which is the same that they pay to other power generators. But they still sell it back to you at full retail. So in order to "make" money, you need to put in the largest PV system you can afford to cover the difference between selling power wholesale and buying it retail.

A local high school installed a PV system over the entire roof surface of the building. They are generating a positive cash flow of $2000 per month starting from the first month of operation. If every school did this, it might save all of us some money on the property taxes that we pay towards education.

[pigman]

You're right Ron, Germany does subsidize solar... but let's remember we heavily subsidize nuke and coal power here (

In what way is coal power subsidised in the USA? :-\

[StorminN]

In what way is coal power subsidised in the USA? :-\

Pick one:
9 Billion dollars in coal subsidies

Inside US energy subsidies, refined coal subsidy $29.81 per MWh, more than solar or wind

Lawmakers push for big subsidies for coal processes

-N.