Solar...It's not a joke

farmerdoug · July 03, 2008, 08:45:15 AM

You need some copper nails. ;)

dhutch · July 03, 2008, 08:51:10 AM

Quote from: fencerowphil (Phil L.) on July 01, 2008, 10:31:35 PM
Several people have mentioned upcoming/impending electric utility price hikes.
Anybody got some substantive surveys or forecasts to add?

I just received a letter from Dominion Power here in VA saying they are requesting an 18% increase in the kW/h rate from the State Corporation Commission, due to increased fuel costs. I'm connected to Rappahannock Electric Cooperative, which buys power from Dominion Power and passes cost increases on to me. My rate went from 11 cents per kW/h last fall to 14 cents per kW/h this spring (27% increase). A few years of similar price increases and the large cash outlay for solar starts to make economic sense!

Fla._Deadheader · July 03, 2008, 08:55:42 AM

QuoteSpecifically, my neighbor's trees.

Check with your town-city-province-, whatever. There HAVE been laws passed, that a neighbor can NOT block your yard to stop solar gain. Same as a neighbor can NOT build a 2-3 story house that will affect your property.

This was way back in the day, but, it DID become law, maybe just localized. ???

SwingOak · July 03, 2008, 09:14:44 AM

Quote from: farmerdoug on July 03, 2008, 08:45:15 AM
You need some copper nails. ;)

What's that do?

farmerdoug · July 03, 2008, 11:31:10 AM

A couple on copper nails driven through the bark will poison the trees and kill them rather quickly.

Part_Timer · July 03, 2008, 09:17:51 PM

Thanks for the link Phil, our place will be in SW Virginia so winters should be a bit milder and we have great sun on the place. We will have a generator or 2 for backup but batteries will be the key. We have a lot of research to do but some time to work it out. I need to look and see what the price of electric fork truck batteries are since they are made for that type of charge and discharge cycle.

We had a meeting with the AEP rep. for our company a couple of months ago and he told us that they have a rate hike increase turned in to the powers that be. We don't know if it will go through but our electric bill is $185,000 per month so even a 10% increase makes a huge impact on the bottom line.

I figured supply would become an issue sooner or later but I wonder when just getting the juice down the lines will become a problem. More demand more lines. With the price of copper and other materials, adding new supply lines will cost big $$$$. Sooner or later that will go on the bill also.

fencerowphil (Phil L.) · July 03, 2008, 10:31:17 PM

The law FlaD mentions is currently in effect in Georgia. It may apply to
someone doing something new which will block EXISTING solar panels, rather
than dealing with blockages such as trees which predate proposed intallations.

Probably in that fine print.

I think it is in effect at the federal level, but I haven't had time to check back on that.

fencerowphil (Phil L.) · July 03, 2008, 10:33:58 PM

Lurcherman

Maybe you could get some true tree-huggers to come
and hug those neighbor's trees to death.

:D

SwingOak · July 04, 2008, 12:03:38 AM

Quote from: fencerowphil (Phil L.) on July 03, 2008, 10:33:58 PM
Lurcherman

Maybe you could get some true tree-huggers to come
and hug those neighbor's trees to death.

:D

On the plus side, one of their larger ashes just split down the middle, and half is laying in their yard. My neighbor is building a shed, and there a maple in bad shape that's going to fall right on it, and they are planning on putting on an addition so the walnut will have to come down. So there's hope yet...

I might have to try out that copper nail thing...

StorminN · July 04, 2008, 01:55:03 AM

Quote from: Part_Timer on July 03, 2008, 09:17:51 PMWe don't know if it will go through but our electric bill is $185,000 per month so even a 10% increase makes a huge impact on the bottom line.

HOLY COW!!!

What the heck are you powering?? I thought our factory's bill was bad at $3,000+ per month!!!

-Norm.

Ron Wenrich · July 04, 2008, 07:27:05 AM

Farmerdoug

I had to look into your claim about copper nails and trees. After reading up on it, I can't find anything to support it. One response was from a tree trimmer that had found a ring of copper nails embedded in a tree. Apparently, the tree responded quite well to the intrusion by growing around the nails.

I've also sawn many bullets in trees that have copper in them. Some of those trees have been used as backstops for target practice. Trees were very much alive at the time of harvest.

I think you might have more of a myth than a proven method of tree death. Have you tried it?

farmerdoug · July 04, 2008, 07:54:33 AM

Ron, I have used it on maples and it worked. The nail has to be in the inner bark area to work. It may not work on all species of trees though.

Bullets then to go right into the wood. Copper sulfate on the ground around the tree works pretty too. ;)

Part_Timer · July 04, 2008, 08:38:20 AM

We are running a 400 ton per day recycle papermill. We have an electric boiler to help offset the cost of natural gas. The E-boiler is 2.3 mw and runs during our off peak hours. Right now with natural gas at $12 per DTherm we are saving just under $10K per week. You have to understand though that our peak charge is $16 and some change per KW and our usage charge is .03....... per KW. Very cheap for around here. We are a 10mw consumer during the off peak hours and run about 7.8mw during the day depending on how our other equipment is pulled up.

fencerowphil (Phil L.) · July 04, 2008, 09:30:14 AM

That 'splains it!

Hey, they make single wind turbines which will output enough for that boiler to run
even during the day. What would payments run on one of those?

(Oops, wrong thread.)

Furby · July 04, 2008, 12:29:14 PM

Quote from: farmerdoug on July 03, 2008, 11:31:10 AM
A couple on copper nails driven through the bark will poison the trees and kill them rather quickly.

Quote from: farmerdoug on July 04, 2008, 07:54:33 AM
Ron, I have used it on maples and it worked. The nail has to be in the inner bark area to work. It may not work on all species of trees though.

I've used taps made of copper water lines several years in a row, for tapping maples.
Taps were in as long as two months at a time with no noticable problems with the trees.
Some trees had three taps each.

farmerdoug · July 04, 2008, 01:17:46 PM

Well Furby, Copper kills trees around here but I wondering if those nails I used had something else in them too.

Don P · July 05, 2008, 01:20:13 PM

I was looking for some roof screws today and came across this on Fabrals website, solare standing seam roof. Anyone seen one installed, know costs, relibility, etc? We have 2 prospects that have expressed interest in pv.

http://www.fabral.com/solarssr.asp

Ron Wenrich · July 05, 2008, 01:30:32 PM

If I was going to stay in this house for another 10 yrs, I'd look into it. I could use a new roof to replace the existing metal roof. When I move on, this place will probably be torn down.

But, I'll be looking into it for the next place. ;)

JUNEBUG 88 · July 17, 2008, 03:46:51 AM

We need the Chrysler Turbine car to come back, it ran on just about any combustible fuel and was very cool to drive! It sounded just like a jet and my dad got pulled over several times during his drives by curious police officers. If they could get 22 mpg back in the 60's imagine what they could accomplish now. My brothers thought exhaust may have been hot enough to roast marshmallows (we tried it). The exhaust was virtually smog free.

I am not sure how the solar panels would work on roofs in MI that are covered with 10-15 inches of snow? Also, we in MI only get the Federal money nothing else!! :( Currently our house uses only about 700-1000 KWH per month and with a 1KW solar panel costing us $3000 without the batteries and inverter it sounds like it would take decades to recoup the $3000+++. I can not afford the $3000 anyway. The only programs the utilities offer are programs we pay extra per month so they draw from renewable sources,what a rip off. Some states virtually pay for the solar system to be installed but not MI!
I can see a quicker payback in gas costs by installing a fireplace though, but that is off topic.

fencerowphil (Phil L.) · July 17, 2008, 06:00:45 AM

Don P

That standing seam roof is definitely new technology, based on two metals
rather than silicon.

I really think Nanosolar is going to leapfrog everybody. If they hit the proclaimed
price target, they will be king of the hill. Their coating is based on four metals,
is more efficient, and can be applied to flexible substrates. Nano is presently installing
high volume production in California. It would be hard to beat the durability of conventional
PVs, but if the price is so much lower, that might not be a factor - just keep the rest of
the system and in 15 years, replace the membrane portion.

SwampDonkey · August 22, 2008, 06:18:29 AM

Quote from: Furby on July 04, 2008, 12:29:14 PM

I've used taps made of copper water lines several years in a row, for tapping maples.
Taps were in as long as two months at a time with no noticable problems with the trees.
Some trees had three taps each.

I was wondering about the use of copper for tapping maple. I recall they used oxidized copper to line some multi-pots to grow tree seedlings. The purpose was to keep the trees from getting too root bound and the copper would kill the tips of the feeder roots. Just remembering about that gives me some concern. I believe the copper in it's stable metallic form in the soil is fine , but when it oxidizes/corrodes and becomes soluble it may be harmful. Depending on the size of the tree, duration the copper is embedded in the tree and how deep it is set, the chances of ill effects may be small. Copper piping usually only oxidizes on the surface like on roofing.