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Author Topic: Belsaw build  (Read 4245 times)

pineywoods, BUGGUTZ, Trapper John and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline glendaler

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Belsaw build
« on: May 30, 2018, 03:24:52 PM »
I figure I've made enough headway on my build to start a thread if anyone cares to follow my progress. It's a Belsaw A14, 1940's-ish I think.

This was the way I bought the sawmill, I didn't even know it was there, only about a km from my shop.


 
That rotten old bed has since been cut up into tiny pieces to go to the wood scrap pile after stripping the important bits off.

This is what the carriage started out like:

 

 

It's since been completely disassembled:

 

Then every piece is getting sandblasted:

 

Then I make whatever repairs are necessary to each piece, and then they get painted:

 

Getting there: 


 
Belsaw A10 circle mill,

Offline glendaler

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2018, 03:30:10 PM »
I own and operate a diesel engine rebuilding business so I looked through my cores and selected a 3.152 Perkins diesel to rebuild and power the mill. The engine will be transplanted into my Cockshutt 540 tractor, which will run the mill off it's PTO.



 

The blade is a 44", 26 tooth, has #3 shanks. It seems to be in very good shape, probably worth more than I paid for the whole mill.

 
Belsaw A10 circle mill,

Offline millwright

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2018, 03:59:05 PM »
Looks like a fun project

Offline glendaler

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2018, 08:05:22 PM »
Thanks millright, i'm enjoying it. 

I'm building the bed to the original specs with locally rough sawn hemlock I'm planing myself. I've got 2 legs built so far:


 
Belsaw A10 circle mill,

Offline TimGA

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2018, 08:57:02 PM »
Nice, can't wait to see finished.
TK2000, Kubota L3130GST, grapple, pallet forks, 2640 Massey w/loader (The Beast) Husky saws Logrites One man operation some portable most stationary.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2018, 09:43:12 PM »
Looking good 8)
Are you going put any bracing in those? The mill takes some healthy lateral whacks when you roll on and turn logs.
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Offline ddcuning

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2018, 04:35:20 PM »
Looks like you are doing a good job on the restoration. Keep the pictures coming so we can see how it is going.

Dave C
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Offline hedgerow

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2018, 07:52:06 PM »
+2 on kept the pictures coming. I love to see old equipment come back to life and not get junked.  

Offline DMcCoy

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2018, 08:05:08 PM »
Looks like mine when I bought it right down to the color of the paint.  Wow, brings back memories.

Offline glendaler

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2018, 03:35:46 PM »
Thanks guys, I'll keep the pictures coming. There will be some kind of bracing to the legs but i'm not sure what exactly yet.
Belsaw A10 circle mill,

Offline Coolrunner

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2018, 12:24:30 PM »
Great work so far.  A couple years ago, I put a Belsaw on a bus frame.  It works quite well and I've sawn some good lumber.  I built it to saw out big timbers for my barn repairs and recently sawed some black spruce 10" X 10" X 14' sills.  The biggest drawback is the short carriage.  When sawing the last boards, they tend to push or pull into the saw, depending on the internal stresses.  I really need a third dog to steady the cant at the tail end.  With larger squared timbers, there's no issue.  Great mill for 8 to 12' logs although I wouldn't want to try to make a living with it.  Keep up the progress postings and maybe I'll become inspired to do the same. 
Kubota M6800, IH434,IH500C,MF130,JDMT, JD1010,FarmallA, Belsaw on busframe

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2018, 08:37:46 PM »
Runner, its possible to attach two Belsaw carriages together if you can find another. A fella with some metalworking skill should be able to extend his carriage and fabricate a headblock or two for the long timbers. Frank C.
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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2018, 08:50:00 PM »
Funny you say that Frank, my parts mill has a three knee carriage someone did exactly that with. We are thinking of adding one of the knees off of it to our runner for exactly the reason mentioned above.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2018, 08:08:44 PM »
Once I'm up and running I'll have to see if a third dog would help. One of the big jobs I have in mind is turning a couple hundred poorly spaced spruce into boards. They barely average 10" diameter so I'm not sure if that will make them flimsy and prone to movement or not.

Progress has been boring lately, just more blasting and painting so no pics. I have a few repairs to make to a few pieces so i'll get some pics as I go. One of the next things to tackle is most of the axles for the carriage rollers are severely worn. My plan is to get some 9/16 drill rod, machine the grease holes and then harden before final installation. The bushings in the rollers seem good, the axles must be very soft. Planed the rest of my leg material but no other progress there yet. Pics and progress to come this week.
Belsaw A10 circle mill,

Offline Flyingpig

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2018, 10:59:29 PM »
We just rebuilt our carriage axles. We just used grade 8 bolts and made press fit bushings for the wheels, I think they are 1045 or something. Just a bit harder than the bolts anyways. That way you just replace the bolt. Fast and easy. Plus you are booting through the carriage rails which are mild too and they do pound out from chatter. Id rather let the bolt wear. We had to poor mans line bore ours by welding some hardened washers to ours because a few of the holes were 1/2 out of round ha ha

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2018, 10:06:15 AM »
I'd like to be able to grease everything so I think I'll machine the axles rather than bolts.

The pawl for the ratchet wheel had quite a bit of wear and roundness so i was worried it might slip on the teeth:


 

So off to the welder to add some metal:



 

 

Then to the lathe to turn down the outside:  



 

Next comes the milling machine to do the flat:



 

Now we're back to nice keen edges on both sides, and the weld is probably a little more durable than the original metal





Seems like a lot of work but now is the time to do it if it's going to get done.  
Belsaw A10 circle mill,

Offline glendaler

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2018, 10:10:25 AM »
Someone couldn't get the setscrew out at some point so they had it pretty buggered trying to get it out. Too hard to drill so drill and tap a new hole:


 

 
Belsaw A10 circle mill,

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2018, 08:46:44 PM »
That pawl is a wear item we should probably team up and have a run of them made. I have I think 3, the one on the mill is about ready to be welded and ground, If I hold my mouth just right it grabs most of the time, the other two have been welded once and then worn down again.
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Offline glendaler

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2018, 06:54:13 AM »
It's not overly complicated of a piece, be a good project for someone's first cnc project at a trade school. That's the only cost effective way people get odd things made around here. In a way I'm glad yours doesn't grab all the time, now I know it was worth doing. :)
Belsaw A10 circle mill,

Offline Flyingpig

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2018, 08:07:00 AM »
We drilled the bolts and tapped for a 1/8 fitting. Only three lathe operations and they are ready for use.

That setworks pawl will give a bit of trouble if they are worn. We wound up trading ours out for the one off the parts mill too.

Looking good!

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2018, 09:06:26 AM »
Ah, I wrongly assumed you just threw a bolt in. Did you select a long bolt to get enough shank to go through the whole axle holder and cut off the extra thread?
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Offline Coolrunner

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2018, 11:39:28 AM »
I need the pawl repair too.  Mine slips if I try to go too fast or if sawdust has collected in the teeth.  BTW, I have been looking for another mill for the carriage parts to extend mine.  Otherwise I may build one.  
Kubota M6800, IH434,IH500C,MF130,JDMT, JD1010,FarmallA, Belsaw on busframe

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2018, 08:06:48 PM »
Ya we were looking for whatever would be the easiest to switch out down the road with the lowest downtime. We did use longer bolts and trimmed the threads back.

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2018, 09:39:12 PM »
When I had a Bellsaw I put the reach rod in a 't' tube so you could twist it and rigged up a toggle and lever to the pawl. This rig is still working to day. It was just a bunch of junk brazed together and the pawl lasted much longer.

Offline glendaler

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2018, 08:22:22 AM »
That's an interesting idea. What do you attribute the longer wear to? Were you turning the handle to disengage the pawl on the return strokes so it wasn't dragging on the ratchet wheel? Any pics?
Belsaw A10 circle mill,

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2018, 01:06:26 PM »
Glendalerl, yes, lifting the pawl at times.  Also put the feed outboard. There has to be a way to make a better setworks, ofte tthought about doing something with a large rachet  wrench.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2018, 01:41:40 PM »
That pawl is a wear item we should probably team up and have a run of them made. I have I think 3, the one on the mill is about ready to be welded and ground, If I hold my mouth just right it grabs most of the time, the other two have been welded once and then worn down again.
x2. Mine is pretty rounded too. Add me to the order!
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Offline glendaler

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2019, 07:52:17 PM »
10 month time gap but there's more progress lately, gathering some momentum. After thinking long and hard about my plans, I changed from the 10 ft carriage, 30 ft bed with six legs to saw 14 ft lumber to the standard 6 ft carriage, 18 ft bed with 4 legs to saw 10ft lumber. Less material, less hardware, less walking, smaller footprint, smaller building, and the only time I've needed longer than 10ft lumber was to build this sawmill. More progress to come very soon.


 
Belsaw A10 circle mill,

Online Trapper John

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2019, 02:10:14 AM »
Thanks for returning, was wondering about your progress.  Your frame looks good.  I think you made the right decision for keeping your mill that size.  My M-24 has a 16 carriage, 3 headblocks  and it came with a 48" blade.  Its just a hobby mill for me, thank goodness, and I thought it would handle bigger logs than it can.  I can't imagine what the engineers at Belsaw were thinking.  Sixteen feet of extremely light carriage, a 1.75" arbor, a 48" saw, a 6" flat belt for prime power.  Let's get real.  But anyway, I am learning a lot and I think I can make my mill meet my meager needs.  Keep us posted on your progress, you have a real old timer there and your work is beautiful.

Offline jimparamedic

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2019, 03:28:22 PM »
very interested keep up the pics

Offline Hilltop366

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2019, 03:47:42 PM »
 popcorn_smiley 

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2019, 07:05:37 PM »
Watch out for the set wheel getting loose on the shaft. Back before lock tite  I slit mine and welded steel bars in the spoke area, drilled and thru bolted to shrink on shaft like a john deere 2 cyl. Still tight to this day.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2019, 09:05:26 PM »
I think half the circle sawyers in this country got their start on Belsaws. Two of my friends ran Belsaws and I learned to run a mill with their instructions. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2019, 10:35:57 AM »
Thanks guys, the carriage is on the second floor of my shop and the lighting is terrible but here it is. Needs some more paint but 90% done.


Belsaw A10 circle mill,

Offline jimparamedic

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2019, 11:43:08 AM »
looking good it will be well worth the effort

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2019, 12:29:34 PM »
Needs some more paint but 90% done.
:)
International Red?
- Jason
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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2019, 01:49:14 PM »
Ford red actually.

End plates and top plates on, arbor notches cut, feed works sitting near where they'll be.


 


 
Belsaw A10 circle mill,

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2019, 07:21:07 PM »
You are doing a beautiful job but are you going to use those plain bearings? I hope not.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2019, 04:02:59 AM »
You are doing a beautiful job but are you going to use those plain bearings? I hope not.
I sure am.
Gotta use whatever time you can find so I picked up an LED tripod work light, 8400 lumens. Got the carriage bolts into the legs through the beams so the structure is officially done. Bringing the arbor to work with me to move the pulley in my press to line up with the tensioner properly. Hoping to have arbor, feedworks and tensioner mounted up this weekend.


 
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Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2019, 06:46:48 AM »
Glen, I hope in your country you can still get creosote or other effective wood protector, that frame is just too pretty to succumb to the ravages of rot. The later B'saws used flange type pillow block bearings that were a big improvement over the Babbitt, you could retrofit if need be. Frank C.
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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2019, 07:38:56 AM »
As long as the babbitt bearings are in good shape and properly maintained the will do a good job and last a long time 

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2019, 07:54:24 AM »
I understand it was done that way [even by me] but on machines that have sat always seem to have a rough shaft.   Ball bearings work so good on a light mill and run very cool and no oil can in one hand will sawing and watching for other problems.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2019, 08:23:05 AM »
The shaft is still nicely polished and will be oiled properly. Part of what I do for a living is grind crankshafts so I have quite a bit of knowledge in this area. I'd like to keep it original because if I was going to put ball bearings on it, I might as well machine myself a bigger diameter shaft, then I might as well switch it all over to v-belts, or hydraulic feed, make a better carriage, etc, etc. I'm bad for snowballing projects and instead of ending up with a simple product I have a half done complex one and quit. The major point is to saw wood with an old mill and have fun while doing it. There's a local babbitt expert that does all the old model A engines in this part of the country so I could get them redone too.

Glen, I hope in your country you can still get creosote or other effective wood protector, that frame is just too pretty to succumb to the ravages of rot. The later B'saws used flange type pillow block bearings that were a big improvement over the Babbitt, you could retrofit if need be. Frank C.
One of the first things on the list is a building for this thing because I agree, I have alot of time and energy and pride now in this frame. I've been on the search for a fallen barn to salvage the steel roofing from but I think people have scooped most of it up.

Belsaw A10 circle mill,

Offline glendaler

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2019, 07:07:06 PM »
Got the feedworks installed, I was a little wide so had to take the brace off and pull in with a clamp. Got the arbor installed. Put the front bolts in first, then put the blade on to make sure it was square or a bit of lead with the bolts in the middle of the slots before drilling the back holes. Extremely close to square up and down as well but will have to wait for the carriage for final adjustment there. Ready for the belt tensioner but the previous owner must have had the feedworks closer to the arbor than me, the belt's too short. Some other belts came with the mill I'll have to check lengths.




 


 
Belsaw A10 circle mill,

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2019, 08:09:38 PM »
Glendaler, I understand you keeping it original . Surprised you found it in good enough condition to just polish. As I use old sawmill equipment almost full time, I couldn't wait to get rid of babbit and so I passed my feelings to you but I respect what you are doing.  We have an automotive machine shop 2 miles from here and they weld up and grind cranks, there are very few of these shops left. Keep up the good work.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2019, 10:23:51 PM »
You are going to have a great mill and it will be fun to use. And it will make a great product for you to use. Just rememder you are working with wood so a 1/16 to an 1/8 inch is ok. I have a friend that is a millwright and when we built his house he started trying to make every thing to a 100 thousand. but he finilly figured it out. The big thing is just have fun and enjoy

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2019, 01:19:27 PM »
Thanks.

Yeah I have to guard against that alot. Anytime I get into a carpentry project the machinist part of my brain goes nuts. I was surprised at the variance from some local places I sourced wood for this mill from though. That's what high production gets you I guess, and if it's going to be planed after I guess you only have to be so good. But if I can't get better than what they're putting out I'm chopping this thing up for firewood.
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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2019, 01:22:46 PM »
In the original instructions from Belsaw in the 1930's it says to set the carriage up so it travels about 1/2" from the blade. Is this normal and what holds true today? I'd like it as close as possible to have support for the last board with a spacer board behind. Would 1/4" be so close that the blade might hit it if it wobbles?
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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2019, 03:53:03 PM »
1/2" is standard. Any closer could cost you the teeth and show you a ring of fire in a minor wreck. The saw guide should prevent this if is stout enough. If you touch the wood being sawn or drop a shingle , from a damaged log, between the log and the saw it will heat fast and send the rim [teeth] from side to side mostly towards the carriage and if sawing, saw a curve, again into the carriage if it can.    Always wear eye protection when sawing. I got knocked out once. Even more important; never let anything fall between the saw and the spreader and if you see this starting to happen, get over to the side fast because it's coming at your face.     Getting the lead right and the filing of the teeth is critical. The teeth must be filed straight across and have equal corners also the hook angle like new teeth.      Keep us posted.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2019, 06:22:24 PM »
All good advice, thanks. One thing I noticed in the countless videos I've been watching is people make a nice big table right along side the blade to catch the boards but they tend to stay standing up on this table instead of falling over onto it, so they sit there rubbing the blade, or small pieces get caught between the saw and the table. I plan to have nothing at all next to the outside of the blade to stay away from this and just have a couple angle pieces so the cut pieces fall well clear of the blade.
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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2019, 07:35:17 AM »
Consistency on what comes off the mill is what we strive for and as nice a product as possible. I'm sure you will be cutting nice boards in no time 

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2019, 08:26:25 AM »
Glendaler, You want a table and a handrail for safety, only take one slip or fall. Put some kind of hook on a stick and lay it on this table and use it to pull the slivers, bark, etc. so as not to heat the saw. The problem with the table is when you work on the saw [filing]. it won't let you stand. You also need room for sawdust.  This low spot or pit is easy to slide into, another reason for table and rail.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2019, 08:22:30 AM »
Not much progress lately, we're getting a late blast of winter weather here that's slowing things down. I've set the end of the month as a finish goal so there will be updates soon.
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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2019, 07:24:04 AM »
Blade guide with stainless hardware and new pegs.



 
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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2019, 12:22:04 PM »
for my led worklights I bought a bunch of 12" led light bars from amazon they cost $20 for a pair. Now I either hook them to a PC power supply to power them or I hook them straight to a battery. cheapest and best worklight I have ever had. when I drop something on them its not a huge loss.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2019, 03:11:22 PM »
Glendaler
My 40" saw is at the saw doc's right now.  I am having a fair share of difficulty saw accurately so I am eliminating the possibilities one by one.  He asked me what I was sawing and when I said spruce he said it was one of the most difficult woods to saw and that using 9/32" teeth could be most of my problem.    He said he was changing out the 9/32 teeth to 10/32 or maybe even 11/32 depending.  Apparently spruce needs a lot of clearance because it's "springy".  I am sure you have a lot of spruce there.
Because you are a machinist I would like to know what is the acceptable run out on an arbor.  I put a dial indicator on mine and found there was .006" runout.  Could this cause me trouble?

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2019, 09:04:45 PM »
A lot of guys have trouble sawing spruce. I have sawn spruce from day one because often it's the only soft wood I can get. [got a truck load yesterday, more on the way]. Now there is woods grown spruce, fresh, that's the best. then there is open grown, big knots, wavy grain, and if it's been laying around, even worse. From some wood lots comes curved butt spruce, good luck with that. Anyhow the saw teeth must be wide and sharp because it saws hairy and around the big knots it may raise the grain so bad you have to stop and go or saw very slow which is never good. Chrome teeth seem to help and I wonder about chrome shanks. Sometime you will hit 3 knots at once and the saw will try to go around them. A 2 1/2 style saw is best. Wet logs are better also. Deep cuts [big logs] are a test for you and if dry even more so.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2019, 05:36:43 AM »
The first logs I have lined up are spruce, and lots of it. I was going to try and get away with the teeth on the saw to start with but your advice makes sense to me, so I've ordered a box of teeth, 5/16. The ones on the saw are quite worn and narrow.

Trapper, tolerances are extremely specific to application so I'm not sure I'm qualified to speak to sawmill tolerances just yet, but first of all where exactly are you dialing to get that .006"?

*Edit: I couldn't find it the first time I looked but after some more searching through "Circular Sawmills and their Efficient Operation" I found where they say if you dial the fast collar and it deviates more than .002"-.003" it needs to be machined.
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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2019, 07:45:34 AM »
Because the bellsaw mandrel has no pin drive you can 'clock' the saw and tighten the nut and spin it and check the wobble at the guide pins. The idea is to oppose the wobble in the saw with the wobble in the collar. [no dirt, rust, sawdust]. You can also try paper rings on the collars stuck on with oil. I always wipe oil on the collars when the saw is off or going back on. Otherwise the collars must be re cut with the proper taper. .006 with a small dia. saw may work ok.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2019, 07:03:46 PM »
Glendaler, I measured the .006" near the center of the arbor.   I just put the indicator on the fixed collar and found .003" runout.  I also did the procedure where you hand tighten the arbor nut then move your guide pins next to the saw and then fully tighten the nut.  I am happy to report I did not see any movement of the saw at the guide pins.  
I have the same belt feed as you and I could not use the stock 12" pulley to power the live shaft, way too fast.  I went to a 18" pulley and it works better for me.  But I have to keep the feed belt tight and I still throw the belt and have tracking problems.  I am gathering the components for hydraulic feed.  

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2019, 07:09:01 PM »
 

 

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2019, 07:47:58 PM »
Hyd. feed. I have pondered that for my mill [It has friction and belt gig]. I think if you chain a hydrolic motor to the feed shaft that operates at a fast return [gig[ that is the fast speed you want, then through the motor spool valve the feed flow goes through a flow control valve that you adjust. Could it be that simple?

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2019, 09:37:44 PM »

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

when you rotate the mandrel as shown and you get a reading of .003, that is total indicator axial runout. Actual runout is half that. So you need to know what runout is being specified. When you measure radial runout between the bearings it doesn't really tell you what you need to know because placement of the bearings will change that. In a perfect world there should be zero runout. Keep in mind It's not the space shuttle. .003 tir should be good.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #63 on: April 19, 2019, 10:23:20 PM »
Hyd. feed. I have pondered that for my mill [It has friction and belt gig]. I think if you chain a hydrolic motor to the feed shaft that operates at a fast return [gig[ that is the fast speed you want, then through the motor spool valve the feed flow goes through a flow control valve that you adjust. Could it be that simple?
That is essentially what I put on my American #1 but reverse from your description. Hydraulic motor is direct coupled to carriage feed. Open center control valve appox 8 gal per min. Output direct connection to feed rotation. Return flow for gig back goes through adjustable flow valve. So when sawing the valve is feathered to adjust rate of feed. On gig back valve is held fully back with speed controlled by setting on adjustable valve. you can still feather return rate but max speed is restricted by adjustable valve

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #64 on: Yesterday at 01:46:13 AM »
Thanks for clarifying the difference between indicator runout and actual runout and the difference between axial and radial runout.  I am trying to get my head around the hydraulics.  So the flow valve is placed in the gig back line and only limits the maximum flow in that line?
Here is what I plan to work with.

 

 
The pump and motor came out of a scissors lift.  The pump (cant find model number) was direct powered by a 4 cylinder gas engine and the motor is 15 gpm and 353rpm.  The valve came out of a forklift so I assume it will not work because it is not a motor spool.  (Besides it has too many fittings!) 

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #65 on: Yesterday at 04:56:35 AM »
I could not use the stock 12" pulley to power the live shaft, way too fast.

I have a 20" pulley on mine, the previous owner made a wooden one about 16" to run faster. I'm glad to know you have a 12" because I wasn't sure where on the scale I was but I'm obviously on the slow end which is fine with me. I'm waiting for my belt to come now. With the smaller pulley they were running, the belts that came with the machine are too short and I can't find a way to rework the geometry I'd be happy with to use the shorter belts. In the mean time I've got my pulleys mounted and cable run, just have to pick up clamps for the cable. Guide rails are on and the carriage is on. 
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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #66 on: Yesterday at 08:43:24 AM »
Laup, thanks for that post.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #67 on: Yesterday at 09:45:54 AM »
I like setting up and maintaining and upgrading my mill almost as much as sawing with it.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #68 on: Yesterday at 12:43:00 PM »
Luap, so if I my motor is 15gpm I should get a 15gpm open center motor spool valve and a 15gpm adjustable flow valve?  

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #69 on: Yesterday at 12:48:47 PM »
I like setting up and maintaining and upgrading my mill almost as much as sawing with it.
So do I but I buy logs and logs spoil. Sawing and stacking all the time these days. Looking forward to making a pantograph and getting hydraulic lines too carriage to power set works.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #70 on: Yesterday at 01:01:25 PM »
Glendaler, The best way to power a bellsaw [with an engine] is to mount the engine on a skid that is too wide so you can put an elevated shaft, on pillow blocks, parallel to the engine and Vee belted to it at the ratio needed. Use pick up truck sized drive shaft, slip joints, yokes, etc. to connect to mandrel.  A lot of work but trust me, well worth it.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #71 on: Yesterday at 05:41:32 PM »
So far I like the idea of not having another engine to maintain and just pulling up with the tractor when I want to mill. But if I do run a motor it will be how you described.

Guide rails are on, carriage is on and cables run but needs fine tuning. Blade guides are on. PTO adapter made and on. Waiting on feed belt and have to figure out the splitter.



 
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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #72 on: Yesterday at 06:28:07 PM »
Lookin good. A tractor pto accomplishes the same advantages such as no belt pull [overhung load] and so much easier to play with the lead. But be careful when you shut down as the nut that holds the blade can unscrew . Your tractor pto must coast slowly to a stop.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #73 on: Yesterday at 07:06:47 PM »
Just tried the PTO shaft I made actually. Nice and smooth and when I popped the PTO out of gear the blade free-spun for quite a while.
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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #74 on: Yesterday at 07:37:00 PM »
Laup, thanks for that post.
I need to clarify my hydraulic feed post. There are different types of flow control valves and what I use technically is more of an adjustable orifice than a flow control valve. I am restricting the flow in a circuit or a loop that goes from valve to motor back to valve. So it can be on either the in or the out side of the motor which would be forward or reverse and restricts the flow in the complete loop regardless of direction of flow of oil... The valve it self is a high pressure needle valve rated at 3000 #psi and is adjusted by trial and error. The  valve is on the reverse side because that was the location I could easily reach during setup. my goal was to  control max return speed without paying strict attention to what I was doing with the control lever. There is a sweet spot that it is more than fast enough sawing and fast enough on the return.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #75 on: Yesterday at 08:09:25 PM »
Laup, ok, thanks again. The flow control that I have used on other projects is the excess return flow to tank [open center].  There must be a dozen ways to power a shaft, forward/reverse , variable speed, stop/start etc. not to mention closed center or hydrostatic, all to much for me.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #76 on: Yesterday at 09:05:52 PM »
Thanks for clarifying the difference between indicator runout and actual runout and the difference between axial and radial runout.  I am trying to get my head around the hydraulics.  So the flow valve is placed in the gig back line and only limits the maximum flow in that line?
Here is what I plan to work with.
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
 
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
 
The pump and motor came out of a scissors lift.  The pump (cant find model number) was direct powered by a 4 cylinder gas engine and the motor is 15 gpm and 353rpm.  The valve came out of a forklift so I assume it will not work because it is not a motor spool.  (Besides it has too many fittings!)
The motor looks heavy duty. Any motor that has same size fittings can also be used as a pump. Your valve has the power beyond port tapped into and would need the right sleeve put back in to use that as a single valve. A valve doesn't care what it sends the oil to but it matters when it is in neutral. That is a pretty good size single stage pump. You will not have the problem of not enough flow.
I tried to clarify my flow control arrangement in response to moondacreek. My flow control restricts flow in complete circuit. not just the return side. There are flow dividers that will do that but more to buy.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #77 on: Yesterday at 09:40:07 PM »
Luap, so if I my motor is 15gpm I should get a 15gpm open center motor spool valve and a 15gpm adjustable flow valve?  
It basically comes down to choosing the motor with the most torque at your chosen gpm. You best indication of this is slowest rpm at rated flow. And your chosen 15gpm open center valve and 15 gpm flow valve would be good. In the case of driving a carriage you could undersize the spool valve because you would never be  using max. flow. I am only a seat of the pants backyard builder who knows less today than I did yesterday.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #78 on: Today at 07:51:44 AM »
Looking at the pic, is your stick in the way of loading the carriage? Mine is behind the leg, just in front of the blade.
My splitter is just a vertical knife on 2 threaded rods so it can be adjusted with nuts in and out and tipped to align with the cut, but I think the rolling disc type probably work better.
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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #79 on: Today at 08:04:41 AM »
Very perceptive donp, it is in the way but the handle is removeable. I don't often see these belsaws with the short 18ft bed and 6ft carriage like I'm building and I'm finding out that things are cramped. Now that I'm used to seeing mine I realize most of the ones you see online are people that have very long beds and carriages sawing short wood so everything looks very roomy. I think it's going to efficient to have everything almost within arms reach. Things are getting exciting now that I've had the blade spinning.

How many turns of cable should there be on the feed drum? It's 1/4" cable and I have 5 wraps on now.

Is there a torque for the arbor nut? I put a pipe wrench on it and wacked it with a hammer.

How thick should the splitter be in relation to blade thickness? The higher the splitter the better?
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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #80 on: Today at 09:53:51 AM »
Very perceptive donp, it is in the way but the handle is removeable. I don't often see these belsaws with the short 18ft bed and 6ft carriage like I'm building and I'm finding out that things are cramped. Now that I'm used to seeing mine I realize most of the ones you see online are people that have very long beds and carriages sawing short wood so everything looks very roomy. I think it's going to efficient to have everything almost within arms reach. Things are getting exciting now that I've had the blade spinning.

How many turns of cable should there be on the feed drum? It's 1/4" cable and I have 5 wraps on now.

Is there a torque for the arbor nut? I put a pipe wrench on it and wacked it with a hammer.

How thick should the splitter be in relation to blade thickness? The higher the splitter the better?
5 wraps or 4. If not enough it will slip on a big log. With a wrench length 1/2 the dia. of saw blade, arm strength only, no hammer. [actually self tightening] Splitter: straight edged to log side of blade + a hair more so cant doesn't hit it.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #81 on: Today at 01:51:07 PM »
Thanks again Luap, you explain things clearly and quite helpful.  So that valve could work if I make it open center with a sleeve?  Or should I just order a $150 motor spool valve from Surplus Center?
Glendaler, the Belsaw manual says 3 turns but I don't think it makes much difference.  I have 5 or so wraps and the extra has come in handy when I am playing with carriage hookup.  
Here is my scale, I did not like the sliding weight scale, kept hanging up.  This one doesn't lie.

 I was having a hard time with my 48" B-9 saw with 9/32" teeth especially with frozen logs.  Just quit cutting.  I decided to try another 48" saw that came with my Corinth.  This saw is a different beast, D-7 with 5/16 teeth.  I had my doubts when I brought it up to speed because it chattered badly even with plenty of daylight at the guides, but once in a log it calmed down and got to work.  I am back to sawing.  

 again.  

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #82 on: Today at 02:53:32 PM »
Trapper, I have never seen a D style, how many teeth? [I do have a 4 1/2 style in 52"x 30 tooth]

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #83 on: Today at 03:11:17 PM »
Glendaler, forgot to say that the splitter should be thicker than the blade, 3/8" I believe . On the height it gets tricky. For safety it should be high and curved and close say 1" from teeth. But then you can't put on a larger saw. And the other thing is that if you saw oversized logs they get stuck on the splitter. You may want to grind a taper on the upper part, that's what I did. The splitter must wedge the slab or board away from the saw but not touch the cant. Sometimes a thin tapered slab will shut and go on the inside of the splitter, not good, this is why the splitter should be close to the saw. So you see there is no perfect splitter. The old round ones are really dangerous.

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Re: Belsaw build
« Reply #84 on: Today at 09:19:45 PM »
Moodnacreek, that saw has 36 teeth.  It's interesting that B, D, and F all take the same teeth.  I have another saw, an 44", 40t,

 3-8 and I found the old Simonds shanks are not replaced with new Simonds shanks. But the dealer did have some old shanks labeled HOPPE and I will try them soon.  


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Last post June 23, 2013, 01:03:16 PM
by beenthere
 


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