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Sawmill Building - Enclosed or Open

Started by YellowHammer, March 12, 2019, 01:08:43 AM

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mtoo747

Quote from: Southside logger on March 12, 2019, 10:09:49 PM
Peter - Which was worse - backing into the pile or the sound of pulling away after?  :D
That made me laugh  ::) Not that i've every done anything similar ... 

Peter Drouin

I try to be care full with the cat, I need to slow down some. ;D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Lawg Dawg

 

 




  

 

My sawmill shed is small and open, but definetly old school! I built it for my first LT-15, I have the 40 crammed in there now, time for an addition! I would'nt have no other style building on my property. My customers come here for that....I could'nt run them out of here yesterday  :laugh:
2018  LT 40 Wide 999cc, 2019 t595 Bobcat track loader,
John Deere 4000, 2016 F150, Husky 268, 394xp, Shindiawa 591, 2 Railroad jacks, and a comealong. Woodmaster Planer, and a Skilsaw, bunch of Phillips head screwdrivers, and a pair of pliers!

100,000 bf club member
Pro Sawyer Network

longtime lurker

If the issue is lack of three phase I'd hang with it until the current diesel is up for replacement then install a generator. You'll run a 50kva on about 2 gallons an hour, or 75 kVa on about 3 gallons an hour. (50 is enough for most anything + blower as long as you dont want to run it all at once. 75 will run a 4 header and blower.) You can rig it up far enough away that it isnt thumping in your ear.  The only issue you'll have with it is kicking yourself later for taking so long to do it.

The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Kwill

Quote from: Lawg Dawg on March 13, 2019, 06:40:51 AM


 




  

 

My sawmill shed is small and open, but definetly old school! I built it for my first LT-15, I have the 40 crammed in there now, time for an addition! I would'nt have no other style building on my property. My customers come here for that....I could'nt run them out of here yesterday  :laugh:
Lawg dawg what are the demensions on your saw shed?
Built my own hydraulic splitter
Built my own outdoor wood stove
Built my own log arch
built my own bandsaw sawmill
Built my own atv log arch.
Built my own FEL grapple

boonesyard

I'm going through the same consternation right now trying to decide how we want our sawshed designed. I know that whatever we come up with, we'll wish it was bigger in a short time. I've decided to wall up the west and north prevailing wind walls, and drop curtains for the south and east when needed. Also going with compacted class 5 floor, but we're working on a sawdust conveyer system that's movable (we'll see how that design comes along). 

I know one thing, don't take your roof load designs for granted. Figure out what your area requires, and then add to it. This is what I found at our city shop on Monday morning. The 50x120 building is 45 years old and was in excellent condition, but the snow last Saturday did it in. Not fun  :(

 
LT50 wide
Riehl Steel Edger
iDRY Standard kiln
BMS 250/BMT 250
JD 4520 w/FEL
Cat TH255 Telehandler
lots of support equipment and not enough time

"I ain't here for a long time, I'm here for a good time"

longtime lurker

owww that hurts. Snow loading isnt something I have to worry about anyway.... 100mph winds yah, but not snow.

I love Peter Drouins' sheds. That entire timber frame construction thing always gives me a buzz and yanno it's the right way to build a sawmill shed. We're all of us in the business of wood, not running foundries. You want to advertise what can be done with post and beam, you arent doing yourself any favours by building your own spaces with RSJ's.

This mill shed design issue is something near and dear to my heart, for the simple reason that I have never had the luxury of having to build my own sheds. Prior to my commencing work from here this joint was a transport/wharehousing facility with some manufacturing capability. SO what I've got is a whole lot of shed.... but a lot of it is shed that was designed to handle palletised freight not lumber in packs. Along the way of putting up with this I've had a fair old shot at a graduate degree in how NOT to build mill buildings, and done a whole lot of dreaming about what I'd do different if I started with a blank slate.


1. You need a master plan. Not just this upgrade but the next and the one after that and some room just in case. This show is a cobbled together mix of sheds where they started with a farm shed mid slope , then did a skillion at the back, then attached at the front by digging into the hill, then dug out some more and attached again, then went 30 yards away and started again on a different bench height on the hill. Sounds good but digging back into a hill gives you access issues on 3 sides and you've got a shed to the front so doorways are at a premium.

2. You got to separate stuff. Thats about a couple of things... having dedicated spaces for certain tasks. It's about efficient use of space. Its about waste removal and not having an inch of fine sawdust in the machine shop because its downwind and attached to the drymill. It's also about fire containment. As I slowly demolish buildings here (with some help from those 100mph winds) and build new ones I am determined to let it sprawl out more. There is a time cost in that with regards say getting packs of wood from the mill to storage, then pulling them back to machine... but fire is the enemy of a sawmill and yanno a fire in any one shed - greenmill, timber storage/drying area, kiln, drymill, workshop/ machinery parking space.... should be able to stay contained there and not spread to other spaces. Its a terrible thing to lose the mill or all your lumber stocks, but it's a whole lot more survivable than losing both.

3. Water storage tanks. I'm lucky compared with some of you guys, I dont have to worry about having water freeze solid in storage. We have 3 x 6000 gal tanks, all interconnected and able to be isolated and those are straight up - water for fire fighting - tanks. If I havent got a fire stopped by the time the fire brigade pumpers get here its not going to be stopped, but I've got enough water to back them up to give a fair chance once they do get here of containing any fire to a given area. If I was doing that again I'd just go with an inground swimming pool.... heated for some of ya's.... but its tax deductible if its a water storage area for fire control yanno

4.Concrete floors: I love 'em. You know how some people are a woman trapped in a mans body or vice versa? Right... well I'm a big sawmiller trapped in a little sawmillers chequebook. I've been at this now for 10 years on my own account, starting as a little sideline thing with a Lucas Mill to currently running around 400 MBF a year, and I expect to double capacity in another 12 months, and double it again the year after that. A lot of that is because I tend to buy large capacity equipment second hand and grow into it. Thing with big toys is they are heavy, and they need sizeable footings, and that means serious concrete floors. If you cant bolt them down they vibrate and thats bad for the machine and bad for the finished product.
And its easy to keep clean, and it doesnt burn if the place catches fire, and the termites have to cross it to get to the wood so I can keep them under control. It also helps make flat lumber... I started with levelling wood bearers on a dirt floor to put lumber stacks on - there was always some settlement, and so much work. Just bang your bearers on the nice level concrete floor and start going up, and I can see the difference in how flat the lumber lays going into the planers.
The only shed space I have thats dirt floored is the machinery parking area under the old extension, and thats because the dirt catches the oil drips better under some of my old darlings. I've done the dirt floor thing, and I know how good a properly formed and packed dirt floor can be (think clay tennis court) but concrete is so much better.

5. Think about the direction your weather comes from, and prevailing breeze. You want air to flow through the wood in the drying sheds so they need to be sited across the wind. In an ideal world you find a way so that the greenmill, which is where the worst of the sawdust always is, is the most downwind building so that particulate from there isnt blowing through everything else. Everything here is coated in sawdust... its up in the Z purlins of the roofs slowly eating the galvanising away, its on the tops of drums of oil in the workshop, and anything left open on the bench has to be covered if you want it to stay clean.

6. Think about drainage. One thing this place does have right is being built on the slope of a hill I dont have too many drainage issues, and mostly the ones I have are about slowing the water down rather than mud puddles in the yard. I have no idea how many tons of rock have gone into this yard between me and the transport company before me but... lots.

TBC...
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

moodnacreek

My sawmill building , a 2 story gambrel roofed barn was kinda cute when we built it and before additions where put on. Got a lot of complements but I wouldn't do it again. It should have been a ugly shed roof because snow keeps sliding off for days after a good storm.

PAmizerman

Here is my latest brainstorm for the building I want to build.


 
Woodmizer lt40 super remote 42hp Kubota diesel. Accuset II
Hydraulics everywhere
Woodmizer edger 26hp cat diesel
Traverse 6035 telehandler
Case 95xt skidloader
http://byrnemillwork.com/
WM bms250 sharpener
WM bmt250 setter
and a lot of back breaking work!!

YellowHammer

I never considered water storage, I could use a swimming pool to wash the sawdust off,  :D

My current sawmill shed is a converted old barn, 48 ft x 48 ft, nice ambiance but a little too small.


The new building is 40x100, big enough but expensive and looks like a warehouse.  Great for our showroom, but not what I'm looking for in a sawmill shed.  



It would be cool to have something like Peter's 45 foot door opening in a wooden structure, or like some of the other's.  We just don't see anything like that down here.  Everybody builds with metal.  

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Bruno of NH

I stoped at Peter Drouin's yesterday for a visit. 
His sawmill sheds just have that look.
It says New England 
I think folks stop there for that and the great service. :)
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

Don P

I am seeing some very optimistic beam sizing in the pics above. For large spans especially do your homework, if solid sawn is getting out of hand consider LVL's which are over twice the strength of most solid sawn and then steel if that isn't working. Remember in steel you can get some very rigid, wind resisting connections, especially nice in a partially open building. You can always wrap steel in wood for pretty.

YellowHammer

That is also in my mind, although I didn't mention it.  I live in a county where building inspections are a reality, and engineered drawings to code are required, with licensed contractors required for both our building and construction workers for structures used for a business.  The steel building quotes I have gotten so far all have PE stamped drawings.  The material for a 40x60 red iron "kit" are in the $20K range, available from several of the big steel building companies on the web.  I'd have to find my own construction crew, or do it myself, but who has the time?

I'd have no idea how to do that for a wooden open span structure.  I'm sure it can be done, I just wouldn't know how.  

Our old barn was grandfathered in.  Any new work, whether electrical, structural, etc means the exemption is voided.  So in many ways, to expand it isn't really an option, for the money, I might as well get something new.         
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Crusarius

What about steel building then build out all the columns to look like wood? Definitely be a ton of work but could be a nice touch. Showoff lots of things you can do with wood. Also make plenty of ways to hide wires, air lines, whatever.

wisconsitom

Yellowhammer, what mean you by red iron?  Just curious, and not familiar with meaning of phrase.

thanks,
tom
Ask me about hybrid larch!

Bruno of NH

YH
The city I used to live in needed permits,drawings,stamps and inspections for every step.
Built a lot of things in that town .
You don't have a lumber yard that does plans,stamps and has a install crew?
LaValley building supply does this in NH,Vt,and Maine.
I did some projects with them when I had a crew.They have a wood truss shop.
I built 2 big truck garages for one of my old customer's.
It's very nerve racking putting up 40 ft clear span 6/12 wood roof trusses.
Until it's all braced and sheathed the chances of it falling in on its shelf is real.
My nerves can't take that stuff anymore.
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

Bruno of NH

Red iron building are built around here.
But aren't the best when you add heat to them, lots of problems with ice build up on the roofs and mould problems .
When the chunks of ice slide off they smash on the side walls and can hurt someone.
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

btulloh

Considering spans, permits, insurance, time, and flexibility it's hard to beat those steel buildings.  Form follows function.  Leave a side or two open, then close it later if you change your mind. 

You can build a timber-framed office for eye candy.
HM126

wisconsitom

I too am a "form fits function" guy.  I like it when everything looks like what it is!  Steel pole buildings are just fine in my world.  Probably something I will end up doing at some point-contracting for a steel pole building, to house my sawmill and to enclose a small living quarters.  And thanks YellowHammer.  I would actually enjoy owning a building like that.  I do suppose these iron-framed buildings cost more initially than more conventional post-framed steel buildings.

tom

Ask me about hybrid larch!

btulloh

The floor question seems more complex than the building question to me.  I'm intrigued by some of these alternatives to concrete that have been mentioned.  I suppose the floor could even be a hybrid, with some concrete where necessary.  I wonder how hard-packed clay or sand holds up to tire traffic from fork lifts or loaders. 
HM126

longtime lurker

My preference for big spans would still be wood posts and beams, but go to web trusses built from gal pipe for the rafters and timber batten rather than Z or C sections. Corrosion prevention and all that -I've got a big problem coming in about 15 years with all the cheap sheds here.... they've got back to back C sections for rafters and z's for purlins and the sawdust hangs in them and if you get up and scrape it away you can see the wood acid is slowly eating into the galvanising. Gotta be someone who can draw a plan, and I'd rather pay him and build with wood which we all know we can kinda make cheap than pay for steel

And dont ever believe they're strong just because they've got an engineers stamp. Everything here is built to hurricane standards, they can withstand 200mph wind gusts because an engineer said so.





 

Yeah right!

That was my mill shed post TC Yasi, the thing was a write off. Best guess is she got enough wind pressure inside to lift it and the apex haunches failed, and then she dropped in the middle and the posts bent as it came down. I dont got much faith in engineer approved design any more for some reason. :D
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

redbeard

Yellowhammer,
Your big showroom Bld has alot of potential for curb appeal, have you thought of siding over the metal clad walls with wood, board n bat or live edge lap siding maybe trim the jambs of roll up doors in bigger beam or log look.
Install graphics  of old scenes and your logo on metal roll up doors. 
Just a idea!
Curb appeal is what customers brag about.
Whidbey Woodworks and Custom Milling  2019 Cooks AC 3662T High production band mill and a Hud-son 60 Diesel wide cut bandmill  JD 2240 50hp Tractor with 145 loader IR 1044 all terrain fork lift  Cooks sharp

YellowHammer

Quote from: wisconsitom on March 14, 2019, 08:49:50 AM
Yellowhammer, what mean you by red iron?  Just curious, and not familiar with meaning of phrase.

thanks,
tom
Red iron is an industrial steel, coated with red primer.  Its claim to fame is easy install, wide open spans and most of the commercial buildings here use red iron.
Its the type of building Longtime shows in his photo.
Btulloh,
We have some rock hard clay here, I use it on some of our floors, and if its moist when its put down and vehicles drive on it to pack it down, when it dries, its like asphalt, maybe just a little softer, but not much.  
Some folks here will get pallets of Portland cement, and till it into the clay with their garden tiller, and when it cures, it is just dirty looking concrete.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

moodnacreek

Not the subject but- I tried to get the local building inspectors office to let me, the local sawmill issue building permits, save the town money, they wouldn't go for it.

Peter Drouin

The door on the mill is a red iron header. Engineered to code. the rest is built on the boco codes
we have. 
But me being a builder for the last 50 years I have some Ideas in this live free or die state. :D ;)


 


 


I have a wood floor in the Stake room, works good for me.


 
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

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