Sustainablity and energy efficiency for alternative housing

[Thehardway]

Many people are interested in TF or log buildings because they perceive them as sustainable, renewable, or "green" and earth friendly methods of construction.  I find this an interesting study. 

No doubt these methods can be all of the above but how often do they end up as such in the finished product?

For instance how many timber frames are made with timbers that are locally harvested, sawn and and cut on site in green form vs. timbers that are cut hundreds if not thousands of miles away, shipped, dried in a gas or electric fired kiln to make them "stable" cut on a gas or electric powered mill, trucked to the building sight and then put up with large diesel powered cranes. 

Same goes for logs.  Someone decides to buy a log home because it is "green" and they have always wanted one cause they look so cool.  Next thing you know they have selected a log home dealer that manufactures kits a thousand miles away, the logs are milled, kiln dried and in some cases chemically treated and then shipped to the building site on a fuel guzzling truck to be put up with a crane.  They then brag about how green they built.

Same goes for "Alternative energy" such as wind and solar power.

How much energy is required to produce and erect a modern wind turbine or PV panel vs. the amount of energy it will be capable of producing over its its limited life span?  When looked at from this approach some of our "green" technologies are not so green and in many cases are a net energy loss.

Where is the balance between locally produced low tech, and mass manufactured high tech and what resources are available to the average person to sort through all of this. 

The terms green, sustainable, and renewable have gotten more like the term "organic".  What does it really mean?  As local sawyers, timberwrights and log buildiers we a offer a truly green solution but no certifiable way to defend our products vs. the corporate national outfits.

[Joel Eisner]

Forget the discussion about green building and give us an update on your place.  Moved in yet?   ;)

[Jayson]

The Hardway,
                 I feel your pain. Case in point. I am an itinerant framer and I recently drove 1600 miles to work on a project for a total of 21 days. When the trip began we were scheduled for approximately 12 weeks. The folks were a little blown away I was upset. I try to be green. The backyard shed is built out of pipe dunnage I picked up on the side of the road near my house. I've been known to buy used tires. I made Christmas presents for my parents from jobsite scraps. My wife harasses me because I go to the dump and come back with stuff. But these "earth friendlys" were upset that I was upset that I had made the equivalent of a 150 mile daily commute! Go figure.
      I'm afraid the balance is when people are willing to pay more,or better yet work harder to get less tangible worth in order to protect our resources. Let's hope the people who are willing to do that are procreating and it's genetic.

[moonhill]

I use as much local materiel as I can get away with.  The raw logs some times have come from the clearing of the site.  They are transported 20 miles to my mill and framing yard, then transported back.  This saves on the daily driving grind.  It is the closing in which requires daily driving.  Even then some things can be cut in my yard, wall planks, window buckets and such.   Modular homes address this issue but fail miserably in the material department. 

I agree on the overuse of "green and organic" usage.  I do grow organic wild blueberries, MOFGA certified.  On one hand it is my choice of the method and in the other, some buyers require the certification.  And to make the sale we have to have them certified.  This is not the case with my buildings, it is a clear logical choice I make to build the way I do, no external influence or regulation apply, as of yet.   It is coming I can see them peaking around the corner in the form of LEED standards.  I am not clear as to the direction this will progress.   If I make a decision in some area it will reflect in my coming job numbers either up or down, for the better or worse.  I am still in business and doing well, if that is any indication. 

My home and work is off the grid.  Another choice we made is living 3 miles from the power line.  We use solar and wind stored in batteries with a supplement of propane(in the butt).  My take on energy is the more efficient it becomes the more we will use.  We need to become more efficient in how we use it as well.  We are a comfort society, we like things to be easy and pleasant.  Just a few thoughts.   Tim

[Raphael]

Forget the discussion about green building and give us an update on your place.  Moved in yet?   ;)

:D :D :D
That is the question, isn't it...

personally I'm begining to hate that question. ;)

Ultimately I wound up more on the efficient and less on the green side, that's mainly a matter of code and cost.
The initial (recycled) frame got trucked a long way but the rest is relatively local timbers.

[zopi]

I believe the key is to use as much local material as possible...live in the southwest desert? consider rammed earth, live in eastern Virginia...native pine is good...live in Colorado? All kidsa timber to pick from...

The wiring and systems are a bit different story...we scavenge fire wood (and sawlogs) out of clearcuts..wood and energy that would go to waste anyway..

at some point I'd like to have a much smaller energy foot print...and get away from petroleum as much as possible...

[Thehardway]

Update on the place... After work tonight I took the roustabout cranes down to the site.  I think they are going to work nicely.  Overall the progress is going very slow.  I no longer have a move in date as I am tired of disappointing myself when they pass me by.  The positive side of this is fuel and material costs are dropping like a rock so I am not losing any money in my prolonged construction period.  I just hope there is still a market for the house I am in now when the new one is ready to move into.

As for the energy efficiency and sustainability issue,  we all agree, local material is the way to go but here is the dig.  Let's say you are building a timberframe and are faced with some options like this.  SIP enclosure panels manufactured within 100 mi. of your site from locally chipped sustainably harvested forest by product vs. wattle and daub infill from on site sources (with exception of lime which has to be purchased/trucked).  Wattle and daub is certainly more traditional and is certainly "green" from the locally sourced perspective, will last for centuries but falls way short of the SIP's in the heating/cooling department.  If we take labor and materials into account they would probably come out about the same for cost.  Complete opposite ends of the spectrum but both advertised as "green" and sustainable.

Second example: 
Let's say your heating system choices are an outdoor woodburner heating water vs. a geothermal heat pump with water to water exchanger and the delivery system is hydronic radiant heat.  You have plenty of wood scraps available to burn as a byproduct of your sawmill operation for "free" heat in the burner.  You also are net metering on a wind generator which offsets the power you would consume with the heat pump.  Purchase and installation costs are basically the same.  Both considered green by their marketing agencies.

Perhaps the question here is where does the traditional and "thrifty" meet the technologically advanced and economical.  Like Jayson I can't go to the dump without bringing back more than I went with.  I "recycle" all kinds of stuff I find at construction site dumpsters.  Today I came back from work with a 30' peice of Tyvek that got torn off  a building in the weekend rainstorm and had blown into some trees. It was discarded.

Our society has taught us not to save and to be consumers. We were urged to run out and spend our tax rebate as "economic stimulus"  Our present economy is teaching us that may not have been such a great idea and maybe we should have paid off debt or saved that money.  So it is with resources.  Those who are "thrifty" and know how to be self-reliant will soon have an measure of independence that those who are wasteful will not.  Unless of course all resources are seized and controlled and distributed by big brother.

[moonhill]

In our present system If a person has the money to afford the geothermal heating system they can have it.  If not one must choose the wood stove and heat the home for free, almost.  You are not going to get into geothermal with out technology and that will cost.   Comfort level, everyone has a different level.  I wonder if, in the green terminology of LEED standards they factor in cost of a system?  The less it cost the greener it is? 

We aren't allowed to "pick" salvage from the transfer station/Dump.   I hear there are recycle centers for building material, you go in and buy trash.  Someone is trying to squeeze every drop out of the product.  I am not complaining just observing.             Tim

[stonebroke]

commercial wind turbines earn back their energy consumption in about five months. Or so I am told.

Stonebroke

[zopi]

We aren't allowed to "pick" salvage from the transfer station/Dump.   I hear there are recycle centers for building material, you go in and buy trash.  Someone is trying to squeeze every drop out of the product.  I am not complaining just observing.             Tim

The trick there is being the one selling the trash..<G>

[moonhill]

That is true.  I believe they may have a corner on the market.  All the more power to them.

Tim

[Joel Eisner]

People feel sometimes that alternative building and green living has to cost more or is a lot of work.  Instead of golf I go out in the woods and cut trees down for my building materials.  Instead of the health club membership I decided to manually split all our wood by hand.  In the shop and the building site for our addition I keep two scrap bins, one for household heating in the soap stone stove with a cat and the other for the fire pit for the boys.  As I type the house is toasty warm from the oak and SYP cut offs from the door making project last night.  BTW, the wood is all kiln dried from the solar kiln on site.  ;D

Okay ... maybe some of this takes a bit more time but the cost savings are worth it since I could also choose to get the same quality by hiring someone and then work for "the man" an additional 10 to 20 hrs per week vs. building something in the shop with my young sons running around and the music playing.

[moonhill]

Here is a commentary on the LEED program.   It is worth checking out the "MIS-LEED-ING" part as well.  Statistics are tricky business. 

http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-007-prioritizing-green2014it-s-the-energy-stupid/?full_view=1

[Gary_C]

There seems to be an increasing amount of criticism of the Green Building Council's LEED standard. Here is an excerpt from an article I saw a year ago.

The Green Building Council's LEED standard is being attacked because the 25 to 30 % reduction in energy use is "less than 50 % that a group of prominent architectural firms recently declared necessary and achievable." Plus "LEED's point rating system is capricious, rating measures such as providing a bike rack equally with buying 50 % of a buildings energy from renewable sources." And Jim Bowyer of the University of Minnesota points out that whereas the LEED standard favors steel framing with 35% recycled content over non recycled wood framing, this preference actually "would result in more than twice the energy consumption and more than four times the fossil fuel consumption to produce the framing members," in addition to proportionally higher waste emissions.

And Minnesota Govenor Pawlenty has sent a letter the U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC) regarding their Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design (LEED) standards.  The LEED standard penalizes Minnesota family forestland owners by excluding timber products produced from the more than 1,800 tree farms in our state.  In the letter, Governor Pawlenty stated "I find it difficult to understand how a LEED-certified building that contains bamboo from overseas would be more sustainable than one that uses wood from a certified tree farm in Minnesota."  The governor strongly encouraged USGBC to reconsider the treatment of wood credits and recognize all credible forest certification programs in the LEED standard. 

You can read Governor Pawlenty's letter here.
http://www.mlep.org/eUpdates/MNGovLeed.pdf

It makes me wonder just who is writing these LEED standards.  :

[moonhill]

I think someone has a hidden agenda.  Bamboo, from overseas?  It makes me shake my head in disbelief.  Tim

[Dale Hatfield]

The only thing green In Bamboo is the color of the leaves. They are  clearing forest  to grow more Bamboo . Must have come from the man that invented the Internet.