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Forwarder vs Skidder II

Started by jrdwyer, May 09, 2004, 09:59:04 PM

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jrdwyer

In my area, southern IN & western KY, the standard for hardwood logging is chainsaw, then tree length skidding to a landing, then knuckleboom slasher and finally tractor trailer. I have been following the posts on this site and have learned about the abundant use of harvesters and forwarders up north for hardwood logging. Only a few loggers in this area have adopted such equipment. So I have a few questions for those of you experienced with this.

First, what is the largest diameter (stump or DBH) hardwood a harvester like a Timbco or other comparable brand can handle? On better tracts of timber with selective management, I consider for marking the "mature" trees of 24 inches and larger DBH. So a tree like a white oak of 24" DBH and 32 to 40 feet of height and a big crown means serious weight for any machine to lift.

Also, the forwarders I see pictured here and in logging magazines appear to be larger and heavier than many skidders, just having six tires instead of four. So in winter logging conditions, does a loaded forwarder do as much or more damage than a skidder when it comes to skid trail ruts? I can see how a tracked harvester would minimize damage, but what about these heavy and large forwarders?

Finally, can a harvester/forwarder combo really result in a doubling of logging productions versus chainsaw/skidder/slasher? If so, I can see why someone would plunk down $700K, expecially considering the added safety aspect.

Thanks in advance.

Scott

 Harvesters work great for small limbs but theyre not so hot once you get into big top wood and heavy hardwood limbs. A "fixed grip" harvesting head can help as it allows you to cut the heavy branches off with the felling saw. A lot of bigger hardwood work is still done by saw here. Sometimes a guy with a saw will follow the harvester around cleaning up what it couldn't handle. The Quadco 5600 seems to be popular around here as it handles most conditions really well.

Ron Scott

Most of my jobs are variable length logging where the trees are cut to length in place when felled and removed to the landing/decking area by a rubber tired forwarder. Most of the sawlog trees are chainsaw harvested . A feller buncher may be used on the smaller trees and softwoods. The size of these may vary depending upon their desired use, but the larger, the more costly.

Tree length skidding may be done on some areas requiring  clearcutting, land clearing, or row thinning of pine but not in select harvest areas. Tree length skidding just causes too much damage to residual trees, roads, aesthics etc. with much debris left at the landing. Most land owners here just don't tolerate tree lengthing anymore.

The size of equipment seems to go hand in hand with the size of the logging company, size of trees to be harvested, forwarded, or skidded and the terrain and elements that the equipment has to work in.





~Ron

jrdwyer

So, correct me if I am wrong, it sounds like harvesters are still restricted to relatively small diameter hardwood timber, say 20" or smaller on the stump due to weight considerations. If this is so, I can understand why harvesters would not be used with light selective harvests (5-10 trees/acre) of large diameter timber. But as our hardwood timber resource gets smaller in average diameter over time, I can see that harvester will become the norm.

With forwarders, are the tires that much wider (and lower psi) than skidder tires to offset the heavier weight of the machine. It seem to me that during less than optimal logging conditions(wet soil) a forwarder would cause as much or more rutting due to the weight of the machine. Now, while I don't recommend logging during such conditions, it does occurs with both consultant and non-consultant sales due to landowner objectives and timber markets.

I will have to disagree with the statement that tree length logging causes too much damage in selective harvests. It has been used in this area for 20+ years and I can show you many sales cut in such a way that are still quality timber stands. The end results have more to do with the skill of the cutter and skidder operator and the proper marking of the stand by the forester. And in this area, even the largest and most efficient hardwood logging operations (9+ million bf/yr) still use chainsaw/tree length skidding.

Tree length skidding is definetley not perfect and there will be some minor residual damage to unmarked trees, but with a quality logging job the end results are more than satisfactory.

I would like to see some forestry research comparing the two harvesting methods. It would be interesting to compare such variables as production per employee hour, damage to residuals, compaction along skid trails, etc.

Ron Scott

Contact the USDA-Forest Service for probable research results of interest whereby tree length logging versus variable length logging.

I know soil productivity and soil loss was also a concern for sustainable forestry here on the National Forests. Our ecologists and soil scientists wanted us to disband with tree length logging completely on our local soil types.

There is a place for both methods depending upon what your land and resource management objectives are. Let your professional judgement prevail. ;)









~Ron

Ron Wenrich

You guys are pretty much flatland loggers compared to some of the other areas.  We are mainly ridge and valley system here.  Are there slope restrictions for forwarders?   Is there any type of winch used to pull logs or does the forwarder have to drive to each log for loading?

We're mainly tree length logging in this area.  The most damage goes to jobs with grapple skidders vs cable skidders.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Shamus

Ron,
     why do grapple skidders cause more damage than cable skidders? Wait, I think I just answered my own question: probably because you have to drive right up to each log to pull it out. But a grapple skidder with a winch would be ideal, no?
D&L Doublecut Synchro sawmill, Procut chainsaw mill, John Deere crawler loader,  F350 4x4 flatdeck, 20 ton logsplitter, running Stihls

OneWithWood

There are very few flat spots in southern Indiana.  The pancake terrain is in the middle of the state.  Cable skidders and tree length skidding is the norm here also.  I have recently acquired a forwarding trailer with a grapple loader.  I intend to use the trailer on ridge tops where I can establish small landings.  I will continue to skid tree length to the landings where I will buck and load the trailer.  If all goes as planned I will be able to haul more logs to the mill site with less trips, thereby doing less damage to the woods.  Of course I am harvesting on my own property and the time factor is not as crucial for me as it would be for a contract logger.  The loader on my trailer is a modest Farma 51D so it remains to be seen how it handles the heavier white oak and beech.  To date I have only used it on big tooth aspen.  It groans when lifting the 20' long 22-24" logs and I have to drag them close to the trailer to lift them but I can offload them and extend the boom out 17' to set them on the pile.  The trailer is a big plus for moving piles of logs around the yard and staging them on the log deck.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Ron Wenrich

That's just part of the damage.  Most grapple skidders do have a winch, but most guys ain't getting off the skidder unless they really, really have to.

I remember hearing of one grapple operator who would turn the log 180 degrees in the woods.  That really did some damage.

The thing with a cable skidder is you can drop the load and winch it, if you have to.  This helps on some of those tight spots.  Grapples just bull their way through.  You end up rubbing more trees.  Right now, the bark will almost fall off when you look at it.  Rubbed trees usually grow into some sort of defect.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Gary_C

I run a Valmet 546 H Harvester and 16 inches is usually the largest dia tree but you can make multiple cuts around the tree and cut larger trees but I do not recommend the practice. I have heard of some that have felled 4 ft maples.

I normally cut hardwood thinnings that have both pulp and sawlogs. I can make a first pass cutting everything up to 12-14 inches or larger if they are pulp trees. The boom will reach 28 ft to the front and sides and I process directly in front of the machine so there is a mat of slash in front of the machine which is then driven over. I then follow up with a Valmet 644 Forwarder (single bunk - 4 wheels) and hardly ever have a problem with ruts.

This first pass opens up the woods and makes felling of the large trees much easier. Most of the sites that I cut are so thick when I start that it is very difficult to fell trees without a mechanical feller of some kind. Damage is usually limited to the unavoidable felling problems. The larger tracked feller-bunchers do have the ability to pick up trees off the stump and avoid damage to nearby trees, but they are so big and heavy they tear up the ground.

I have cut some jobs with sawlogs only and used the forwarder to pick up logs. I don't like to do it this way because with my single bunk forwarder and shorter boom I have to do a lot of moving and cause damage to remaining trees to get to all the logs. It sure is better when all the logs are in a neat pile along the trail.

Forwarders are not very good on slopes although if you can work straight up and down the slope they will work. With the harvester, I can work a slope from the top and bottom and leave the logs on flatter ground. However there are some jobs where a cable skidder is necessary.

You are absolutely right that a good, careful operator can make most any type of equipment work.

Gary
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Ron Scott

Good explanation from an experienced operator. We use cable skidders on the hillsides also where the forwarders can't work. Tree lengths are taken to the "flats" where they are cut into varable lengths for forwarding.

There are a number of pictures of cable skidders in the Harvest Methods and Equipment Thread.
~Ron

Jeff

Welcome to the forum Gary_C!  
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

tiny3

hi
1 of my familys hardwood jobs has a timbco with 24in hotsaw falling and setting up for a 748g skidder then is dragged to the landing a cut up by a 30t komatsu with 30in rosin processer,then is loaded out by 2-3 excavators.
when the ground is steeper the timbco falls out in rows and a excavator sets the wood up for the skidder it also delimbs and mats the tracks,the timbcos with the hot saw have fell sawlogs up to 1.5 meters across(but must a very experenced operator driving or will damage(split) the logs up >:(.For the smaller job we have has a timbco with a 30in rosin processer falling and cutting regroth and 820 timbco clambunk carting to landing.The first operation harvests approx 3000-4000 ton a week,and the smaller job harvestes approx 800-1200.
hope this helps
tiny ???
artest formely known as tiny

Logger61

There are several Directional felling Heads that cut from a 28" diameter to a 38" diameter tree.  I have a Bell that cuts 28".  The all around great saw for big wood is the Pierce Pacific which cuts up to 38".  There is a Waratah Head that can cut 33.5 and a Hultdins that cuts a 33.5"  These heads can do many things.  They can fell, top and even load.  These heads all have bar saws.  The thing about these heads is that its good to have a good operator that at one time was an outstanding timber cutter.  Most hotsaws are limited to 24" and under but there is a Quadco 2800 that cuts a 28" tree now.  The Bell has cut up to 40" poplar before but it takes a series of cuts.  Once this is mastered there is very little hand work except for trimming large limbs.

Gary_C

Jeff,
Thanks for the welcome, but actually I have been hiding around here on and off for some time. Time is not something I have a lot of, and I think I am about two years behind and trying to whittle it down to one year. With 9 grandchildren, some dairy cows and the farm along with logging in the winter and the Woodmizer for something to do in my spare time I am probably losing ground but still enjoying it, especially the grandpa part.

Back to the subject of forwarders, I think that foresters and landowners are giving them more credit than they are due. The care and skill of the operator is always more important than the type of equipment, and forwarders are not very useful on some jobs.

That being said, if I could not use my forwarder, I would quit logging. There is just no going back to any other method. If I see a job that a forwarder could not be used, I walk away. And they are really useful around a mill for unloading, loading, sorting, decking, and picking that one log for a particular job. I hate to take the forwarder back to the woods in the fall because it is so useful at home.

Gary
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

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