Hydraulic oil help

[jdament]

Hello all and hope you had a great Thanksgiving.  I was wondering if 303 tractor fluid can be used in my Fabtek harvestor in place of aw32 hydraulic oil.  Any info would be useful.

[barbender]

What is 303 tractor fluid? I've never heard of it.

[jdament]

I see it all round in Wisconsin in 5 gal buckets.  It has 303 tractor fluid on the bucket.

[PaYoungBuck]

They sell it here in pa a lot of guys run it. Universal 303 it is supposed to be compareable to john deere hyguard or a hytran oil. I run it in my farm tractors but when it comes to my 540B I only run the john deere oil. To scared to try it don't wanna suffer the consequences if it doesn't wanna work $$$$$$.  I do know guys that run it in their jd skidders tho with no problems. Yet...

[treeslayer2003]

Hello all and hope you had a great Thanksgiving.  I was wondering if 303 tractor fluid can be used in my Fabtek harvestor in place of aw32 hydraulic oil.  Any info would be useful.

I think 303 is tractor fluid. the bell people told me it is to thin for hydrostats and to
use 46 in the bell cutter only. it is confusing with so many oils out there.

[barbender]

It is a UHTF oil, I take it? I wouldn't use it in place of aw32.

[deastman]

303 is a universal tractor hydraulic fluid, I have used it for years in both new and used John Deere and Cat equipment with piston pumps (bunchers, grapples, and delimbers) and have never had a pump fail. Tractor hydraulic is 20 wt. and is a better quality oil than the AW series. AW 32 is 10 wt., AW 46 is 20 wt., and AW 68 is 30 wt., and they are better suited for gear pumps. I now run 303 in my processor with a Fabtek four-roller head and also in my Cat forwarder,  both with piston pumps. It says on the pail that 303 is good for use down to 32* F. I used to run it all year even in sub-zero weather and never had a problem.  My oil dealer now sells a low-temp tractor hydraulic fluid that we use during the winter months, it has a lower pour point than the regular. I think your Fabtek has piston pumps and the 303 (or the low-temp in the winter) would be much better for the pumps than the AW 32. Snowstorm could probably give us more info on oil specs for gear vs. piston pumps. I would never run an AW oil in any of my equipment with piston pumps. I've been looking at an all-temp, multi-viscosity hyd. oil that you can run year-round so I can use one oil in everything but it's kinda pricey.

[jdament]

Hey thanks for the info deastman.  All my research was also showing me that I should be able to use it.  It is always nice to hear other people use it too. 

[Southside]

I can't specifically speak to the Fabtek as I have not had to do a thing to mine yet (brand new to me).  But I have run 303 in my IH Farm tractor, JD 540 skidder, and Kobelco 909 excavator (piston pump) for years with no issues at all.  Just my own experience.

[Northern Timber Harvesting]

I tried using it last winter, it seemed to work ok until it got cold (single digits) then the fill pump on the machines would not suck it up if it was cold. I guess if you stored it inside a heated space and brought it right to the job and put it in it would be ok. its probably best to store oil in a warm place anyways.

[Gary_C]

Tractor hydraulic is 20 wt. and is a better quality oil than the AW series. AW 32 is 10 wt., AW 46 is 20 wt., and AW 68 is 30 wt., and they are better suited for gear pumps. 



I think your Fabtek has piston pumps and the 303 (or the low-temp in the winter) would be much better for the pumps than the AW 32. Snowstorm could probably give us more info on oil specs for gear vs. piston pumps. I would never run an AW oil in any of my equipment with piston pumps.

That's not true. Especially the part about tractor hydraulic being a better quality oil than the AW series oils. AW hydraulic oils in the correct viscosity are perfectly suited for gear and piston pumps and are the recommended hydraulic oil for most forestry equipment.

Tractor hydraulic oils are more suited for use in warmer temps and contain specific additives needed for differentials and gear boxes used in heavy pulling applications. And Case IH and JD recommendations differ in how their recommended oils handle water contaminants. One has additives to reject water and the other has additives to absorb water. Plus some forestry machines have special timing circuits in the hydraulic systems that are dependent on having the proper viscosity oil to work correctly.

Hydraulic oils have additives for specific traits needed for the application. And there are a lot more traits that are important other than viscosity. So it's best to follow the manufacturers recommendation for the type of oil needed in each machine.

I'm not saying you will harm any components by using a different oil than recommended, but some things might not work right. And tractor hydraulic oil is too high in viscosity for use in winter temperatures. And without preheaters, you will have very long warm up times in mid winter temperatures.

[thenorthman]

If you all look real close on at least the Napa aw46, you'll notice it says direct replacement for Deere type 303... I've ran it in my Ford 9n for years, and been running it in the skidder since day one, no issues.

That being said, I wouldn't run it in a hydraulic system that is separate from the transmission, since the type 46 is for tractor transmission/hydraulic systems, typical hydraulic systems are set up for specific types of fluid, often times very different than a standard oil, confusing the two or three... could lead to foaming or damage to O-rings, gaskets and vital pump parts.

In case your curious mix dot 3 brake fluid with dot 5 and see how long your brake system lasts, hydro fluid isn't much different.

[thenorthman]

Oh and the type 303, is an old Deere type fluid (hence Deere type 303), replaced by something with a fancy name and costs twice as much, but its green... blech its the same stuff in a pretty bottle.

[timberlinetree]

I had to add hyd oil to the treefarmer when we had it. Only had 10w-30 on hand and it worked fine for years. Do they make a muti grade hyd oil?

[Gary_C]

Do they make a muti grade hyd oil?

Yes they do, but most manufacturers have shied away from recommending it. Not sure exactly why, but it may be long term stability or too low in viscosity at actual oil operating temperature in summer conditions.

Here is a very good explanation I found about multi weight oils from Amsol. It talks about motor oils and not hydraulic oils but the base stocks are the same for both.

Drawbacks of Viscosity Improving additives
Multi-grade motor oils perform a great service not being too thick at cold startup to prevent engine wear by providing more instantaneous oil flow to critical engine parts. However, there is a draw back. These additives shear back in high heat or during high shear force operation and break down causing some sludging. What's worse is once the additive begins to be depleted the motor oil no long resists thinning so now you have a thinner motor oil at 210 degrees. Your 10W-30 motor oil can easily become a 10W-20 or even a SAE 10 (10W-10) motor oil. I don't have to tell you why that is bad. The more VI additives the worse the problem which is why auto manufacturers decided to steer car owners away from motor oils loaded with VI additives like the 10W-40 and 20W-50 viscosities.

The less change a motor oil has from high to low temperatures gives it a high Viscosity Index. Synthetic motor oils that are made from Group IV (4) PAO base stocks have Viscosity Indexes of more than 150 because they are manufactured to be a lubricant and don't have the paraffin that causes the thickening as they cool. But petroleum based motor oils (Group I (1) & II (2)) usually have Viscosity Indexes of less than 140 because they tend to thicken more at the colder temperature due to the paraffin despite the addition of Viscosity Improving additives. The higher the Viscosity Index number the less thinning and thickening the motor oil has. In other words, high number good, low number bad. Low numbers thicken more as they cool and thin more hot. You see these Viscosity Index ratings posted on data sheets of motor oils provided by the manufacturer.

As already mentioned, VI improving additives can shear back under pressure and high heat conditions leaving the motor oil unable to protect the engine properly under high heat conditions and cause sludging. Also there is a limit to how much viscosity improving additives can be added without affecting the rest of the motor oil's chemistry. Auto manufacturers have moved away from some motor oils that require a lot of viscosity improving additives, like the 10W-40 and 20W-50 motor oils, to blends that require less viscosity additives like the 5W-20, 5W-30 and 10W-30 motor oils. Because stress loads on multi viscosity motor oils can also cause thinning many racers choose to use a straight weight petroleum racing motor oil or a PAO based Synthetic which do not have the VI additives. But only the Group IV (4) PAO based synthetics generally don't need VI additives. Read on to learn why:

What about synthetic motor oils? Do they need Viscosity Additives?
Group IV (4) and Group V (5) base oil (synthetics) are chemically made from uniform molecules with no paraffin and generally don't need Viscosity Additives. However, in recent years Group III (3) based oils have been labeled "synthetic" through a legal loophole. These are petroleum based Group II (2) oils that have had the sulfur refined out making them more pure and longer lasting. Group III (3) "synthetic" motor oils must employ Viscosity Additives being petroleum based.

Typically PAO based motor oils use no Viscosity Index additives yet pass the multi-grade viscosity requirements as a straight weight! This makes them ideal under a greater temperature range. One advantage of not having to employ Viscosity Improving additives is having a more pure undiluted lubricant that can be loaded with more longevity and performance additives to keep the oil cleaner longer with better mileage/horsepower.

How do I know what motor oil is a Group IV (4) based PAO synthetic motor oil?
As more and more large oil companies switched their "synthetic" motor oils to the less expensive/more profitable Group III (3) base stocks it has become much easier to identify which are PAO based true synthetic. Of the large oil companies, only Mobil 1 Extended Performance, as of this writing (12-16-2012), is still a PAO based true synthetic. The rest, including regular Mobil 1 and Castrol Edge have switched to the cheaper/more profitable Group III (3) petroleum based "synthetic" motor oil. AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils are PAO based true synthetic motor oils with the exception of the short oil drain OE and XL synthetic motor oils sold at some Auto Parts Stores and Quick Oil Change Centers. This leaves more than 20 PAO based true synthetic motor oils manufactured and marketed by AMSOIL with only a few Group III (3) based synthetic motor oils identified by the "OE" and "XL" product name.

So as you can see, the average performance of motor oils can be affected by how they change during their service life. Multi grade petroleum can lose viscosity and thin causing accelerated wear as the VI additives shear back. Straight weight petroleum (i.e. SAE 30, SAE 40) thicken a lot as they cool meaning longer time before lubricant reaches critical parts on cold starts, but have no VI additives so they resists thinning. However, they can degrade and thicken as heat and by products of combustion affect the unsaturated chemistry. Group III (3) synthetics resists this degradation much better, but being petroleum based employ some VI additives which is a negative and typically don't have as good performance in the volatility viscosity retention areas. Only the Group IV (4) PAO base synthetics have the saturated chemistry to resist degrading when exposed to the by products of combustion and heat, plus typically employ no VI additives making them very thermally stable for longer periods. For this reason the Group IV (4) synthetics maintain peak mileage and power throughout their service life

Modern motor oils are a marvel of chemistry to be sure.

[mad murdock]

As far as the AW hydraulic oils go, 68 is formulated for high heat and has low foaming qualities, but is more expensive than 46.

[barbender]

I hope no one uninformed reads this thread trying to learn about hydraulic oils. You guys are all over the place with conflicting information.

[1270d]

The Deere guys have recommended sending in hyd oil samples twice per year.  I started doing this after changing out a hydraulic pump with 8500 hours on it.   Had been using Shaffer 246 oil.   With the new pump I switched the whole system to shell tellus s2/46 per Deere recommendations.  Now sampling every 1000 hrs, changing hyd filter same time.

The samples are used to check for degradation of viscosity, contamination, brass particles etc.

It doesn't seem like it would pay to run cheap oils with questionable compatibilities.

[NWP]

 

I hope no one uninformed reads this thread trying to learn about hydraulic oils. You guys are all over the place with conflicting information.

I used to use AW32 in the hydro system on my log truck. I switched to the 303 because it was cheaper. I mixed them too. It sounds like anything could happen from every hydraulic part going bad to it working like a charm for years.  ;)