Forestry Pro for Six Acres?

[MSU_Keith]

I am new to the forum but have been lurking for some time.  Done alot of reading in the forums and knowledge base - great resource for info.  

Anyway to the point, I recently purchased a plot of land that has six acres of hardwoods with some mature oaks(up to 30"dbh).  Most are fairly tall and straight with 30-40' sections of trunk to the first branch.  I 'm planning to clear only 1 acre of the hardwoods for a homesite and would like the rest to stay healthy.  Is hiring a forestry pro worthwhile for this small a plot?

I am still debating how much I will do myself regarding the cutting, clearing and maybe even sawing - might have access to a Timberking 1220 if I trade for some of the lumber.  Is there a best way to calculate return on sweat based on standing timber size, condition that a newbie could follow fairly easily?

Thanks in advance for the help.

[Ron Wenrich]

Generally speaking, 6 acres is pretty small of an area to get any one real interested, unless it had some pretty high quality timber.  Trying to do any type of management work is even less limited....from a commercial basis.

This being a homesite makes things a little different, from the management standpoint.  If you are planning to keep the trees, then they become more of a landscaping fixture.  Even if considered as merely a green backdrop, or a windbreak.  They have more value standing than they do cut down, at this point.

If you only want to take out a few trees around the homesite, you can get that done with a good dozer operator.  He will take out root wad and all.  You may want to contact a logger or mill owner after they are down and negotiate a sale.  It would be too small for a forester to come in.

Sweat equity is a little harder to figure.  It depends on what else you would be doing with your time, and what you will be doing with any lumber.  I would rather see you start cutting with some smaller, low quality logs.  The learning curve can be pretty stiff, and you don't want to ruin top quality lumber.  

[IndyIan]

Hi Keith,
If you have some personal use for your lumber and don't mind doing alot of grunt work, making the effort to produce your own lumber should be worthwhile.  Buying oak at a store for $8 a board foot when you've got to clear out a few thousand bd-ft of wood for your house would get me thinking anyways    

If you've got access to a farm tractor with a loader(local farmer maybe) and easy access in your woods you are set.  Cut it down, buck it to 8'6", haul it to one spot where the mill can get in without covering the logs with mud.  You can easily have lumber that would cost you dollars per board foot for less than a dollar a board foot.   An ATV with an arch might do instead of a tractor.  

Ian

[Ron Scott]

There is some good value hardwoods down your way, especially the red oak. As previously stated, 6 acres is a small area for a forester, but I have commercially logged some such small parcels though they are often hard to work depending upon the landowner's objectives.

There are a number of professional consulting foresters in your area. It might not hurt to have one take look at your parcel and get some professional advice for you to plan and work with. Who knows, you might be sitting on some $$$$ trees if managed correctly. It's best to know that before they are cut or destroyed.

You might also want to contact a landscape architect and or urban forester for an opinion regarding the proposed home site. You are located between two good Universities with a lot of availabe expertise.

[MSU_Keith]

I definitely would be looking for some lumber for personal use and I am am planning to buy a tractor anyway (will need one for driveway maintanance and landscaping).  

Why buck to 8'6"?  I was under the impression that yields are better with longer cuts - as long as the mill can handle it.  It seams like most mills can handle at least 12' from the printed specs. Or am I missing something?

Ron - if there is not enough wood for a $/ft arrangement is a cunsultant then paid by the hour?  If so, what would be a good rate?

[Jeff]

I have to disagree with a blanket statement about bucking to a certain length, but its not a question of yield. Actually, a longer log may actually yield less if there is significant taper.

Example on why not to buck to any given length would be if you have some veneer quality trees where your home site will be. Let me go dig up a thread on where I went and looked at some trees for one of my son's friends. He only had 3 acres. just wanted to clear enough to build. I finally went and looked, even though I figured it would be a waste of time. We ended up getting him around 3 thousand dollars and never touched a lot of the property.

I'll go find the link and post it...

[Jeff]

The thread was titled, "Never Assume"

https://forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=Business;action=display;num=1068343189

[Texas Ranger]

Right on, Jeff.

MSU, if nothing else, get a state forester to look at the tract.

[Phorester]

You can get some general ideas on the Internet for your situation, Keith, but you need to talk to a local forester for the specifics.  I know of one homeowner with a 5 acre lot in my area who had good quality sawtimber and was able to hire a consulting forester to handle the sale for him, only because it was within a mile of another much larger sale this forester was handling.  The forester negotiated with the logger already on the larger sale to buy the timber on the 5 acre lot since it was so close.

But that is in Virginia.  Could be different up your way. As already  suggested, talk to your local State Service forester.  He should be listed in the gov't pages of your phone book.  

As for the length to cut any logs, you first need to check with log buyers in your area and see what species they are buying and the length and diameter of logs they want. But this is what a consulting forester will do for you if you are successful in hiring one.  If you can't find one, the Service Forester should be able to guide you.

The worse thing you can do is listen to a bunch of us on this forum, cut down a bunch of trees, then call a local buyer and try to sell them. Get local advice first.
.

[Ron Wenrich]

Keith

A lot would depend on the consultant.  Some will work by the hour, some won't.  But, looking is free.  Get someone in to look.  Another resource is your local ag extension.  

I would caution you as to working things on your own, unless you have some type of experience.  Farm tractors are OK for farms, but don't fare as well in the woods.  The right tool for the right task.

As for length, the quality of the tree dictates length.  You shouldn't be bucking for your end product unless that's the quality.  An 8'6" length is needed for RR ties.  But, if the quality of the log is better than a tie, then you should cut them longer.  You shouldn't go below 8' or longer than 16'.  Most klins won't take anything longer than 16'.

[hosslog]

Why not look for a horse logger? This is what is considered a horse job around here. To small to use a skidder on or not enough volume to make it worth bringing big equipment in. Also as Jeff mentioned a couple of those big trees might pay for having the work done .

[Jeff]

I think Horse logging on a small piece would be a pretty neat option. I certainly would consider it, for several reasons. Especially for the experience of seeing it done and the low impact to your future home sight.. However, any type of harvest, comes after a well thought out plan, hopefully getting an an expert involved in what you want to accomplish.

[hosslog]

Guess I wasn't to clear there. I was suggesting a harvest method to use after the harvesting plan is in place.  :-[

[IndyIan]

Hi Keith,
I'm a new land owner as well and have done a bit cutting at my place but I'm no pro.  I've cut some eastern white cedar for board and batten for my house this summer.  Most of it has lots of taper and we used an ATV, a trailer and us to skid it.  I came to realize that shorter logs were alot better in my situation...  
I recommended the 8'6" bucking length for a few reasons; Shorter logs are easier to deal with, lighter(the first 8'6" of a 30"dbh oak is plenty for most loaders), fit through narrower places on a loader.  You can get 8' boards which is probably most of what you need for furniture, flooring, cabinets, etc.  Its easier to find 8' straight sections than 12' in most trees with some bends, having sweep in a log wastes alot of wood.  And the taper issue Jeff mentioned, most of the time your log is only as big as the small end for getting boards out of.  On trees with lots of taper I would look to buck shorter than longer.  

By all means though if you have a need for 12' sticks for trim or something then keep a few logs at 12'6".  

Also call lots of horse loggers if you go that route, I have a neighbor that basically charges the same to use his horses as his skidder... Basically that means it only makes sense to use his horses in very sensitive areas skidding very valuable wood!  I had neither so paying the big $/hour wasn't an option.

Ian

[Ron Wenrich]

I don't know of any horse loggers in my area.  Is there any type of organization for horse loggers?  

[Ron Scott]

I don't know of any special organization, but we have several horse loggers in this part of Michigan. One I've worked with actively logs with mechanical skidders and/or horses if desired.

Care also needs to be taken with horse logging as well as mechanical logging, however.

MSU
Are you connected with Michigan State University by chance?  

[hosslog]

Ron,There is an organization called the North American Horse and Mule Loggers Association.They have a web site with a contact name.They have a list of horse loggers from all parts of the country.

[HORSELOGGER]

The DanG problem with horseloggers is that most of us are so independent minded, and tend not to be joiners of associations. I have been to the last couple of meetings of the North American Horse and Mule loggers assoc, and there hasnt been enough members there to vote on anything >:( Ron is also correct... just because a guy has a pair of horses, doesnt mean he wont high grade the life out of your timber and trash the place in the process. I believe that the mind set ( philosophy) of the logger will determine what kind of job you get, more than the method of extraction. I hear there are some careful skidder operators out there, but I have actually never seen a mechanical logging job in these parts that didnt leave the timber raped and abused. I walked a job not far from me last week that was just finished up the week before by a high grader mechanical pirate, .. if he was standin before me i'd say it to his face.Butt logs only harvested, little walnuts gone, dry creek drain beds plowed full of crap with the skidder blade , so the operator wouldnt have to go the "long way", donut wrappers layin on the ground etc...unbelievable. >:( I will follow up behind, glean many board feet of sawlogs, make flooring , pallet stock, firewood and plenty of clear lumber from the logs the slob was too lazy to find a market for... (am I rambling???) sorry, I get hot in the neck just thinkin about that guy, and he just gets hired over and over >:(

[Larry]

Couple of my opinionated thoughts.

Try to get a state forester out to take a look at your timber.  You're writing his paycheck so most of the time they're happy to work with landowners.  Might not be able to do everything you want but he can point you in the right direction.

If you decide to do a little logging the horse logging sounds like a cool thing to do.  I do some small scale logging with my farm tractor and winch.  I could set up in the middle of 6 acres and just about cable every tree with a couple of snatch blocks.  I directional fell to miss the crop trees and making skidding easier....the only clue that your place had been logged would be the tree tops.

If you want to use the lumber yourself, for the most part throw away the tape measure when bucking.  Odd length lumber only presents a problem when stacking for the kiln and it is an easy problem to deal with. Let the tree tell you where to buck it. Put knots at the end of the log. Try to buck the log into straight sections. Excessive sweep in a log kills the yield.  If you are going to air dry have your spot ready along with sticks before the first board is sawed.  Again if the wood is going to a kiln make arrangements before the first board is sawed.

Sawing on shares is a good alternative to get lumber and keep your cash.  I do it every now and then but only if the landowner has lumber I want and can use.

[MSU_Keith]

Thanks for all the info.  I have a call into the State extension from this link:
http://www.michigan.gov/mda/0,1607,7-125-1567_1599_28740---,00.html

I am an MSU grad but have no official connection with the University (other than being a big fan - no bowl game was tough, but the b-ball team looks good) ;D

Horse logging looks real interesting - maybe the State will have some contacts.  The more info I get the more the DIY approach seams to be the best option due to size of job and the control afforded.  Larry - the cable and snatch block concept seams to offer lots of control but is not something that lends itself to 'trial and error' learning.  Know of any good books or websites for describing the methods?

[Ron Scott]

Another contact for help in your area is the Michigan DNR Service Forester for your area. Dave was a consulting Forester before he went to work for the MDNR.

Dave Neuman, Service Forester
Michigan DNR
Knapp Centre 3rd Floor
PO Box 20028
Lansing, MI 48909
517-241-9051