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New Blades

Started by campy, January 26, 2009, 09:31:00 AM

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campy

Hello,
Is there a consensus out there with regards to where to buy and sharpen blades?

I have a Cookssaw MP32 and for three years have only used my mfg for these needs.
The price is about $20 per blade and about $6 to resharpen.

Last week I cut some frozen bowdock and immediately consumed about 4 blades and made lots of smoke, wonky boards and black marks on my wood.

How many sharpenings does one usually have done to each blade?
I talked to a person who will only resharpen their blades one time.
When I continually resharpens the blades crack and break due to metal fatique.

pineywoods

From someone who keeps sharpening and using a blade until it breaks or gets so skinny it won't track.... So far as I know woodmizer is the only saw manufacturer who makes their own blades. I don't question that others are just as good, but when I find something that works, I tend to stick with it. I too have heard of some folks who sharpen a blade once and then toss it. If I ever find "them", I' would certainly raid their junk pile  ;D As for sharpening many times.. Only the tooth is hardened, the body of the blade is fairly soft. Once that hardened part is ground away by repeated sharpenings, what you have left is just a mild steel. Still cuts OK, just gets dull real quick. There is undoubtedly a point where the time or expense of sharpening vs the amount of lumber cut would justify tossing the blade. In my case, I sharpen my own, have the time to do it, and don't worry about production, so I run 'um dill the aren't usable any more..OK, so I'm a little cheeep also ::)
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

WH_Conley

What he said. I'm cheeep too.

On very few blades will you get paid the hardened part. No proof, but I think the worst eneny of a hard tooth os too much taken off or no coolant, causing the tooth to lose it's temper. I think I did that when I first started sharpening. 2 light passes are better than 1 deep grind. If a blade lasts that long they usually get so thin that the band wheel will take the set off the blade one one side causing the tracking issue. No use fooling with these blades any more.
Bill

sgschwend

Consensus is doubtful.

No sawmill manufacture make their own blade stock, blade stock is a very specialized industry.  Folks who weld up bandmill blades may switch blades stock for any of a host of reasons, when this occurs the saw will be different (I am not saying the change is good or bad, just that the saw will work differently).

When I read you message I wonder if you have some underlying problems.  I personally do not accept that a saw should ever break.  I wonder where the saw breaks are located?  You say the break is in the gullet, does that mean your sharpening machine isn't grinding there?  I wonder how long you are running your blades, and if your blades have become dull for some reason and you are still using them.  

I am sure some folks will say stuff about the profile of the blade, but I think that if you saw is setup well it should be able to run any sharp blade.  

Here is some rule of thumb I use:
I use a saw service that gives me sharp saws with proper set (some places do a spot check on the set and do not reset every blade), they even check and reset the blade stock,
Saws are used 2 hours no longer no less (they need to be sharp to the touch at all times),
Avoid cutting through the bark, by rotating the log so that the next cut is not through the bark,
Feed rates are set to the width of cut, 30 fpm for heavy cutting, 45-60 fpm for light cuts (8" or less), 20 fpm for full width slabs,
Enter the log and then ramp the feed speed up.
Steve Gschwend

sjgschwend@gmail.com

Tom

Campy, cooks welds blades from bulk it receives from manufacturers. You can get Lenox, Simonds, or other from them.  They have their own proprietary tooth design that they will sell to you, but the bulk stock is from a manufacturer.

Blade failure may be the sharpener's fault.  Perhaps a sharpener or setter was "out of whack".  A call to Cooks would probably get some results.  They have always been customer conscience and want to help.

Having the blades fail, one after the other, is also indicitive of a failure of the saw.  The way to test that is to put on a blade from an old order and see if it cuts.

Sometimes a guide gets out of whack, or a piece of sheet metal protrudes and hits the band, taking out the set or dulling the tooth before you even get started into the wood.

I've seldom gotten the life from bands that some people get. Part of it is that I make a band work hard and probably run it longer than some people who never wear a band out.  The stress in a gullet is tremendous and improper grinding, as well as overuse, will create cracks that will eventualy break the band.  Still, one should expect 3-6 sharpenings before that happens.  I have always used three or four bands a day when sawing steady.

You need to check your saw and then call Cooks.  "Stuff" happens! and I think that you will find that they are interested in your success. 

There are a lot of good companies out there and they aren't a bad one.  :)

(It is also my opinion that sharpening a band one time and throwing it away is a waste of good blade stock.  Some folks get some weird ideas.  I'd be scavenging his waste pile too.)

pineywoods

WH I'm in complete agreement with you. I always make 2 light passes on each blade. Heavy grinding not only takes out the temper, on my sharpener, it also slows down the grinding wheel so you don't get a smooth cut. Actually leaves scratches down in the gullet, good starting points for cracks, leading to blade breakage.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

ely

i have some bands for my mill that are almost too narrow to go through the sharpener now. i have lost count on the times i have sharpened them.
it seems true that they will not stay sharp as long as when new, but i am in the cheep camp here as well, i use them to the point of no return.

that being said i think a person needs to buy bands from a reputable dealer, i bought a set of bands 20 in a box, from a different dealer because the were priced more cheaply than others. they were not as sharp out of the box as other bands we have used. they say simmonds red streak on them, but where the welds are on them the teeth are as close as 1/2 inch apart. and i tried to set a few of them and the teeth would fly off like shrapnel. i never had to deal with this stuff before. i told dad we would sharpen them a few times then try resetting them.

Chuck White

Quote from: Tom on January 26, 2009, 01:12:28 PM

Having the blades fail, one after the other, is also indicitive of a failure of the saw. 

I've seldom gotten the life from bands that some people get. The stress in a gullet is tremendous and improper grinding, as well as overuse, will create cracks that will eventualy break the band.  Still, one should expect 3-6 sharpenings before that happens.  I have always used three or four bands a day when sawing steady.
(It is also my opinion that sharpening a band one time and throwing it away is a waste of good blade stock.  Some folks get some weird ideas.  I'd be scavenging his waste pile too.)


I'm in complete agreement with Tom!
I usually use 2 bands per day and sometimes 3, depending on what's going on, like we set a blade incorrectly of some other such thing!
I get (on the average) 4-5 resharps on my bands.  Sometimes only 2 or 3, and sometimes 6.
Heavy sharpening will lead to blade failure.  Two light pases will do a finer job than one heavy pass.

I'd love to find someones scrap pile when they use a blade once and throw it!
It's hard to believe, but people really do that, and think nothing of it.

Chuck
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

campy

Thanks for all the input.
I REALLY appreciate it.

I am entering the log and pausing.

The blade faults I had seemed to stop when I slowed way down on this particular CO Spruce tree.
No more diving but I had to be very patient and cut slowly.

I send my blades out for sharpening but it sounds like I need to buy a sharpener and setter.  With the economy going off a cliff I almost hate to ask how much that would cost. 

Sometimes I run without coolant.  It never occurred to me that the blade would heat up and temper.  That may be part of my problem.   I will keep sending the blades back until they break.
The broken blade always has hairline cracks near the break.

When my saw dives in the wood I will respond by tightening the blade.  This may be my problem?
I was taught to tighten my blade until it moves too far off of the wheel (overhang 1/16 inch).
I tighten and spin manually until the blade hangs 1/16 inch off the wheel.
Then I hit the blade with my hand to get a feel for how stiff it is.

Should I buy blades/saws from  Woodmizer or is there a harbor freight type of Internet company that sells the same type of blade for less. 

Bark is a big issue for me.  I have to skid the log to the mill and rocks and dirt get in the bark.
So I have a sharp hoe that I scrape them with.  Really a little debarker I could mount on would be great.   Does such a thing exist as a bolt on aftermarket basis?  Maybe I should hit the cut area with an electric grider first?  Is there a laser I can shine down the log at the precise blade path to show me where to grind?

Who is a really good sharpener/setter I can mail a box of blades to?

Thanks again


Dan_Shade

It is a good thing to run a coolant on the band while sawing, but the cooling here is the wheel on the grinder.  if you aren't running coolant on the grinder, it will burn the tooth.

Where are you located, Campy? 
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

logwalker

Campy, you are confusing blade tension with wheel alignment. They should be compeltely independent of each other. Tighten the blade until it quits fluttering at running speed and then just slightly more. There should be a bandwheel alignment on the saw to adjust tracking. If not you need one. Adjust the band to ride the center of the both wheels. Each should be adjustable. Your guide need to be an 1/8" below the bandwheels to pull the blade down. The blade also needs to be supported from the back. When running free it should be off the flange or bearing a 1/16".

I don't pause after entering the log but I do enter slow and then take off. I do that by holding back a little on the sawhead and then releasing. You can also see a dive if your drivebelt is slipping. That allows a slack to be thrown into the blade and it dives. I put a bike speedo on my idle wheel to tell me both speed of the blade (5500 spf), and if  the belt was slipping.

A proper sharpening will grind the gullet of the blade and remove the stress cracks that develop from the pull on the tooth when cutting. If you cut too long with a dull blade it will accelerate the cracking. Best thing about having a sharpener is the ability to dress the blade often.

Tooth set is just as important as sharpness. Minimum of .020" each side and max of about .028". A properly set blade will cut straight even if dull. A sharp blade with uneven or wrong set will not.

If you are skidding then you need a sharpener or a debarker. No other option in my opinion.

Keep asking questions and reading the Sawing section. It will become clearer with experience.

Joe
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

Dan_Shade

Joe's right, there is a real wealth of knowledge and information around here!
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

campy

Thanks,
I am in Nashville TN.

My wheels seem to be in alignment as the blade runs dead center on both wheels.

My two roller guides also seem straight.  I took an afternoon and totally tweeked them out.

I will check the belt and make sure it is tight enough.  There is a tensioning wheel I can adjust.

I think that the rocks/grit in the bark are a real setback for me.

What type of sharpener and setter would you recommend?


Dan_Shade

There are several types of sharpeners, I have a woodmizer brand one, a pretty old one.

Cooks makes one that looks nice.  They aren't cheap, depending on how many bands you go through, it may or may not makes sense for you to get one.  I enjoy sharpening bands, but it isn't fun when you get behind and have other things to do.

How much do you saw?
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

campy

I saw about one day a week.
I may use two blades a day.

Banjo picker

Campy I too have a Cooks, but am retalitively new to milling.  I am just south of you about a hundred miles.  You will get a lot of good info here, but you can also call Tim Cook with any problems, as he will be very helpful.

By the way what ever did you mean by this?
Quote from: campy on January 26, 2009, 07:29:29 PM
Thanks,
I am in Nashville TN.


I think that the rocks/Dave Shepard brand grit in the bark are a real setback for me.



Welcome to the forum    Tim
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

Dan_Shade

dave shepherd brand grits = d!rt
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

nas

Not only are grits bad to eat, they are bad for your sawblades too, so don't get dem grits on da log y'all. 8) 8)

Nick
Better to sit in silence and have everyone think me a fool, than to open my mouth and remove all doubt - Napoleon.

Indecision is the key to flexibility.
2002 WM LT40HDG25
stihl 066
Husky 365
1 wife
6 Kids

campy


References to "Dave Shepard brand Grit" is a strange data error likely on the server.
The references have been removed from my post so now someone reading this will not have a clue.



backwoods sawyer

Could it be that we have reverted back to food?
Nope grits don't fit into that category.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

Dan_Shade

It's not an error, our fearless leader around here, likes to expand our vocubulary from time to time by doing word substitutions in the software.

Just wait until there's a yooper night! :-)

Yep, there's a lot of knowledge here, but we have fun while passing it around.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Blairgowrie

Hi Campy,

I used to get my blades sharpened by an Amish fellow but it was a real pain because he lives 30 miles away and would never have them ready when he said he would. Eventually he moved back to Ohio from Ontario and I decided there and then to see if I could find a used sharpener and setter.

I checked all the websites for a period in time but eventually found what I was looking for from another Amish gent who makes sharpeners and setters. He had one used set in excellent condition that he let me have for $700. His new ones were about 3 times that price. They are high quality, well built sharpeners and sharpen the gullet and the tip.

My first attempt at sharpening was pretty dismal. The blades smoked and would dive into the log. So I went over to another Amish who I have known for years and he saws for a living. He came over and spent a few minutes looking at it. He said the cam was not tracking the blade profile properly and asked if I had a grinder. After a couple of minutes work, he had the the stone tracking the profile exactly. He reshaped the stone and adjusted the hook angle from 12 degrees to 9. He sharpened a blade for me and then watched while I did one. Total time away from home was 3 hours for him. I tried to pay him $50 for his time but all he would accept was $20. I now do a fair job of sharpening.

Like you, I don't saw for a living and only in the summer.  But I have always wanted a sharpener and a setter. If you hunt around you should be able to find something similar at a reasonable price. 

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