question about posts for pole building

[opticsguy]

Not sure where to ask for help on this project:

Wanting to build an 18' x 50' pole building.  The treated posts are $62 each, costing about $744 plus tax.  I could cut my own but they would not be treated; so, how can I build a pole building without treated poles?  Annnnnd, without having to pour concrete slab with footings for a standard frame construction without poles.

Thank you for your expert opinion.   :-)

[5quarter]

Perhaps utility poles. Square them up to your desired dimension, leaving the bottom 4' intact. they should outlast you and me (well, maybe not me  ;))

[giant splinter]

One of the forum members built his project with treated posts that he joined and bolted together with posts that he milled, I did not find the post that showed the photos but its in here somewhere and looks like it might work on your pole building.

[hackberry jake]

Look into stand offs. I used them when I built my sawshed. Use the auger to drill a hole like you would put a post in. Fill the hole with concrete and stick a j-anchor bolt in the wet concrete. Once its firm, attach the standoff and attach your 6x6. It keeps the posts off the ground.
Http://m.sears.com/productdetails.do?partNumber=SPM6449926207P&sid=IDx20130125xMPTLSx025

[jdonovan]

like jake says, some sort of concrete in ground, and untreated wood above.

Simpson makes a number of concrete to wood anchor products that I'm going to be using for my eventual pole building build.

There is another company www.permacolumn.com who has an interesting pre-cast column option. And they also sell an option for you to set into your poured on-site column.

[Seaman]

I remember the post giantsplinter is talking about, looked like a good idea. He cut the PT post only long enough to have three feet or so out of the ground, then cit about a 16 inch mortise into the end. Cut a 16 inch tenon into his nontreated post and slid onto top of treated post.
Hope that helps.
Frank

[sawdusty1]

I have used plain ole roofing tar on 4X6's below ground level. I built a pole barn using this method 33 yrs ago and they are still solid as a rock. Let the roofing tar dry before putting them in the ground.

[Cguignard]

What I have done in the past for pole barns is use a 6 foot or so section of telephone pole, bury it 4 feet deep then square up the top 2 to 3 feet sticking out of the ground with my chain saw to what ever size post you are using.  For me that size is 6" then I nail and bolt 2x6 to two sides and 2x10 to one other side, each piece is 4' long.  I leave the side of the post towards the out side with out anything and board up the side. Hope this helps.

[Larry]

Use treated 2 X 6's and sandwich construction.  Treated in the ground and untreated above.  The treating goes all the way through a 2 X 6 but only penetrates a small amount in a 6 X 6 so it is actually a better post.  Morton Buildings uses this type of post on their buildings.

In northwest Missouri I've seen a lot of 50 year old tobacco barns where the post was cottonwood sitting on top of a concrete pier.  No fastener at all holding it down to the concrete.  You ever try to lift a 40' tall bacco barn? :D

If you do use utility poles never put the cut end of one in the ground.  I used some for fence posts years ago.  The butt ends lasted fine but the ones with a cut end were showing rot/deterioration after 10 years.

[grweldon]

While it is true that you can attach your poles via hardware to poured concrete footings (piers) to get them off the ground, your completed building will have nowhere near the lateral stability than would a similar building with poles buried in the ground.  The building with the piers will have plenty of uplift protection, but if you accidently bump into a post with the tractor that post is likely to move causing significant damage.

If you bump in to a buried post, you will damage the metal and maybe a purlin or two, but the post won't move if you bump it at the speed you will likely be traveling when you are moving near the barn.  I have never personally seen it, but I've heard of an entire barn built with anchored posts on piers collapsing when a corner post was hit with a tractor.  Will it happen to you? I don't know, but it makes enough sense to me that I wouldn't build that way.

[Jim_Rogers]

Putting a piece of pressure treated in the ground and a regular post on top if it is called the "short pole system".

I wrote about it here with pictures:
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,20380.0.html

Jim Rogers

[hackberry jake]

Most people dont know, but about 80% of the shear strength in metal buildings comes from the sheet metal/tin they use on the outside. I helped a friend of mine build a pole barn garage. We got the posts set 3' deep and got all the rafters up and you could see it sway in the wind. Once we put corrugated metal on it, I dont think a hurricane could knock it down.

[woodyone.john]

For my saw shed I plan to put the posts in the ground 5 or 6 feet, in concrete having at least 6 inches of concrete around the post/pole and 6 inches under. the concrete will be poured to 6 inches above floor level with a dirt floor. about 6 inches above concrete level i plan to drill a hole about 1 inch diameter head down 45 degrees to the centre of the pole. this i will top up annually with copper napthanate.the poles i will use will be thinnings from my eucalypt forest,they are about 12 -15 inch diameter. cheers john

[Bibbyman]

I use eastern red cedar.  And have sawn out many for others.  I can't afford to sale them for the treated pine prices.

[Kingcha]

If your getting a building permit you might want to check first.  We can't use our own lumber for structure wood where I live.  Just a thought.

matt

[postville]

 I am building a saw shed for my mill. Using red elm posts. No treating, just sawed and in the ground. I plan on a 2 foot eves so the poles will stay dry.
I had done this on my old mill building which lasted 12 years before getting hit by lightening and burning down. I am 67 now, if the building lasts 10 years I'll have gotten my use out of it.

[Full Circle]

We use black locust for projects like this.  Sometimes it's hard to make a clean 6 X 6 at the length we need, but it's a good wood for the application.

[RALFF]

If you can find a pole treatment facility in your area you might be able to buy short utility poles. i have a place near me where you can buy 20 foot and under utility poles for $1.50 per foot but you have to haul them yourself. I am using some 16 footers to build a 40ft. X 12ft. lumber drying shed.

[redbeard]

 

  This is a 18x80 drying shed I used treated fence posts with a 4x10 on top , then framed wall all board n bat 1x10 on back side. The 4 6x6 posts in front are on concrete with heavy duty saddles. The sides I used 2 1/2" thick x 8" Perkins for siding nailers lagged into back wall and front posts. Only store bought material was the 6" round treated posts and I used compaction type sand n rock to bed them in 3' holes

  

  . I built it 6 hrs ago.

[Ron Wenrich]

Concrete around a post is a bad idea.  Concrete holds water.  When I inspected utility poles, those with concrete around them were more prone to rot.

The butts on treated posts are usually treated heavier than the rest of the pole.  Your results may vary as you go up the pole.

Redbeard's is similar to what we used on our mill.  I also like Larry's idea with the 2x6s.

[Weekend_Sawyer]

I always wind up wit  a lot of buckets. If you cut a 5 gal bucket in half (not length wise  :D) and then cut the bottom off you get 2 round forms. I dig my footer and fill it full of concrete, place one of the bucket forms on top of it and fill it up with concrete. Even if the footer is wider than the bucket form it doesn't sluff or ooze out the bottom. Put a j bolt in it and walla, you are good to go.

;D jon

[nastcat]

If your getting a building permit you might want to check first.  We can't use our own lumber for structure wood where I live.  Just a thought.

matt

Matt
You can use your own sawn lumber for stucture building all you have to do is get it graded by an approved engineer. My brother did this when he built the addition on his home in town in West Branch, Mi. The women came out the the site approve all the lumber as Number one common and he never had a problem with the building inspector. For the record all the lumber came from mature poplar trees and the engineer stated that it was all easily number one common grade. The lumber was virtually knot free.

[MReinemann]

I just put up a pole garage.  8x8 red oak posts sitting on top of 12" cement tubes.  I stuck a 1" piece of rebar in while it was drying and then drilled a hole in the bottom of the post to drop onto the rebar to keep it from sliding off if it did get hit.  Put some felt paper on first to give it some protection from moisture from the cement.  They will be enclosed inside so they won't see any weather.  Just my 2 cents.
Matt

[MReinemann]

Found a couple pics.



  

  

  

 

[hackberry jake]

Very nice! If thats a "pole garage" I'd like to see your house!

[Qweaver]

Concrete around a post is a bad idea.  Concrete holds water.  When I inspected utility poles, those with concrete around them were more prone to rot.

The butts on treated posts are usually treated heavier than the rest of the pole.  Your results may vary as you go up the pole.

Redbeard's is similar to what we used on our mill.  I also like Larry's idea with the 2x6s.

Not to be contrary, but I have found this not to be true.  When hurricane Ike destroyed my outbuildings and rent house, I pulled all of the 20 year old concreted treated wood posts and knocked off the concrete.  The posts were as solid as the day I put them in the ground and I have reused them.  This was in south Texas on the bay where everything rots.  One of the things to do is to not concrete under the post.  Leave the bottom open so that moisture can escape.  I concrete all of my posts and have never had a rot problem!  The tops may decay if they are not capped.

[Raider Bill]

I concreted all of my 4x4 treated fence posts [658 ft of 6' stockade fence with a post every 8']. Left the bottoms open. Every single one rotted and broke off at the top.
We have very sandy soil [florida].

[Qweaver]

It's amazing that we would have such opposite experiences.  But if the posts are failing at the soil line,  would the same thing happen without concrete?  I don't know because I have always concreted them.  I had never pulled a post before the hurricane forced me to do it and I did not have a single rotted post.  All of my house and seven sheds are concreted and none show any sign of decay...but they have only been in for 6 years max.  The posts in my bay front house in Texas showed a lot of decay at ground level and they were not concreted.  But they were put in in the 50s.

[Raider Bill]

I think I put them in around late 96-97. When I concreted them several people thought I was nuts. Me trying to do things the permanent way and making up for lack of knowledge and skill [if 4 nails are good 8 should be better thought process] put 2 bags in each hole and thought they were nuts to have not used concrete.  :D

The panels are only going to last another 2-3 years at best anyway.

[Ga Mtn Man]

Perhaps the quality of the treated lumber varies from region to region or even from producer to producer. ???

[beenthere]

There are different levels of treatments.
But never figured it was a good idea to encase the treated wood in concrete.

It shortens the life of the wood, regardless. But short term is long enough for some so if ya like 'em in concrete, enjoy.  ;D

[ancjr]

I worked on a farm with several barns, all of which were at least 70 years old.  The one that was in the best condition had posts set in 12" concrete piers which were about 8ft tall.  The bottom 4 feet were below grade, and 4ft above grade. 

I forget if the posts were set into or bolted to the piers, but I know that bumping one with a vehicle or tractor wouldn't have damaged much other than the vehicle. 

Groundhogs had dug around the posts of the previous barn to the point it caused it to collapse, and the fella that ran the place at the time was into some serious over-engineering if it meant something only had to be done once in his lifetime.

[Raider Bill]

The only thing I could figure is that water sat on the concrete and worked it's way into the wood although some were flush and some were under the sand some it just  depended on how aggressive we were with the post hole diggers along the sides.
It was all Orange store PT.

What do you cap the tops with?

[Qweaver]

There are different levels of treatments.
But never figured it was a good idea to encase the treated wood in concrete.

It shortens the life of the wood, regardless. But short term is long enough for some so if ya like 'em in concrete, enjoy.  ;D

Well...I've tried to research this and I find as many for as there is against.  My personal experience with actually pulling the posts and busting off the concrete is pretty hard to argue against.  Also I have several instances right here and also in Texas where un-concreted posts have rotted.  I think that posts rotting at the dirt level can occur in both cases.  As far as being "Short Term"  The posts that I pulled in Texas had been in well over 15 years with no rot at all.
So I think it is un-founded to say that concrete causes posts to rot.  Can the posts rot above the concrete?  I'd say yes...but so can a post packed with dirt.  I've got several examples of that right here.

[Raider Bill]

I wonder if it has anything to do with soil, rain, water table in ground etc? I dunno... could be one of those ford / Chevy things. ;)

[hackberry jake]

The things that cause rot (bacteria, fungus, etc) all need air, water, and food. The wood is the food so unless you use steel or concrete posts you cant cut them off from food. Treatment makes the food poisonous to them. It is very hard to cut them off from water unless it never rains where you are. You can minimize how much water the posts see by not putting them in the ground, or putting gravel around the post for drainage. The air is scarce below ground level and the water is scarce above. For those that want to put posts in concrete for strength, you might try putting a few inches of concrete around the post about a foot above ground level. This would not only keep air away from the post but also keep standing water from running into your post hole. The old chicken houses around here were built like MReinemann did. And most of them are 60-70 years old and still standing.

[grweldon]

I read with concern the messages about posts rotting while encased in concrete.  That is exactly what I did for my house in 2007.  They were exposed to the weather for at least 12 months before I got a roof on over them and protected them from the weather.  Some of them were added after the roof was on and have never seen water around them being under the house.  The posts on the edges are still exposed to water splash, but the concrete was formed around the top and doesn't allow water to pool around the posts.



I've always thought of them as semi-permanent, thinking I would eventually dig out the basement and support the house with a block foundation, but that may never happen.  If they all rot equally (assuming they WILL rot), I could find that during a heavy windstorm, the house just falls off and sits itself on the hill it's built on!

Since I can't do anything about it at the moment (or choose not to) what do you think might be the best way to check for continued post integrity?

[beenthere]

As mentioned earlier, there are different PT retention levels that can effect the longevity of posts in the ground, as well as posts set in concrete.
http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-2531/NREM-5047web%20color.pdf

I've no problem with anyone setting their posts in concrete... just IMO they will fare less well compared to not setting them in concrete.

When I put 6x6 treated posts in the ground for my shed 40 years ago, the posts are still in good shape. If I'd set them in concrete, I'd have likely already had to replace them by now and it would have been a real PIT tush.

Our local town ball diamond that had 7 wood light poles put up (donated money and donated labor to set the poles), they were in concrete and one night after just 7 years when one fell over. Checked the rest of them and they were but just a thin shell of sound wood. Closed the ball diamond and eventually removed the remaining posts and they were soaking wet below the ground line (and rotten). Concrete won't seal around the wood. Water will run down the wood and behind the concrete.

If set in concrete, be a good idea to have the marine levels of treatment retention.

[Ianab]

What's commonly done here is that you pour a concrete footer into the bottom of the hole, for the post to sit on. Then fill the hole with packed dirt, and pour about a 6" concrete "ring" to hold the top of the post in place.

Because most of the post is just in dirt it's able to drain, and any water that seeps down the sides of the post can drain through the ring and away.

Even treated posts don't last a long time if they are sitting in a concrete puddle, and while 20 years sounds like a long time, it's less than you would expect a shed to last.

Ian

[hackberry jake]

I am a habitual over builder. I cant stand thinking that my work wont outlast me (27). So I try to overbuild everything and it has payed off so far. Keep your posts above ground level unless its a temporary building.